VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

It's wild that 5 years after VAR being introduced, we have frequent football watchers that still don't get that VAR looks at all goals with no exception. If the ref wasn't called for a review, it's not that they had not looked at it, but that they did and didn't find anything to review.

That’s part of the problem (for me). Is football the only sport where the main official doesn’t have the final say on decisions?

Take Copenhagens first goal… presumably VAR decided lad standing by Onana wasn’t interfering (oh good, another subjective offside decision ).

Surely, process should be ;

1. Is he offside when ball played?
2. Is he in close proximity to goalie or a defender who could have stopped the shot?

If yes to both, let ref look and decide.

Rugby Union… TMO shouts to ref and ref looks. Yes he might take into account what TMO or touch line officials think (which I’m fine with) but it’s HIS final decision. As it should be.

Same with Newcastle goal. Fine they can say “sorry we haven’t got a clear angle of if offside or if ball out, but you decide about the push/non push”.

 

[Hammondo]

That made me mad, cheating feck.

 

[tob]

VAR should only disrupt or undo calls that are clear and obvious misses. Let's be clear - if the ref needs to go to a tv-screen and look for himself - it's not clear and obvious.
The way VAR it's used now is just depressing. It takes too long for them to make a decision, and it's never consistent. Sometimes it's a handball, other times not. Sometimes it's a red, other times it's not. Has VAR really changed anything on those situations - other than it interrupting the play? The referee calls weren't perfect before, and it's not perfect with VAR either. It's just more irritating, more boring, more controversial and more unacceptable.

When it comes to the offside checks - VAR is overused. If a goal was given against us, and the linesman missed that the attackers left knee or shoulder was offside, I'd not be too judgmental about that. How much more advantage do you really get as an attacker just because some part of your body is offside? It's just ludicrous. I've been okay with those kind of wrong calls my whole life. Now with this line-drawing technology it's just laughable. If the linesman hasn't seen it, you have to draw a line and sometimes even zoom in - it's not clear and obvious.

Unless they can make an A.I. that, at hyper speed, looks up similar situations, collects all the decisions that were made, review how the decisions were received or judge as wrong or right in the public view or official referee association (or whatever) - and then calculate what the right call is. Then, I might be in more favor of using VAR as much as they rely on it now.

 

[Korwas]

When you have a system like VAR that kills passion you basically have to get every call right for it to be worth it. So why not change the rules so that every single goal get a 5 minute VAR check? Seriously, the right call would always be made which is what VAR is for so why is it not used like that? If it's not perfect it's useless. I think it's useless anyway and I want the old football back where I could celebrate goals.

 

[Hammondo]

VAR should only disrupt or undo calls that are clear and obvious misses. Let's be clear - if the ref needs to go to a tv-screen and look for himself - it's not clear and obvious.
The way VAR it's used now is just depressing. It takes too long for them to make a decision, and it's never consistent. Sometimes it's a handball, other times not. Sometimes it's a red, other times it's not. Has VAR really changed anything on those situations - other than it interrupting the play? The referee calls weren't perfect before, and it's not perfect with VAR either. It's just more irritating, more boring, more controversial and more unacceptable.

When it comes to the offside checks - VAR is overused. If a goal was given against us, and the linesman missed that the attackers left knee or shoulder was offside, I'd not be too judgmental about that. How much more advantage do you really get as an attacker just because some part of your body is offside? It's just ludicrous. I've been okay with those kind of wrong calls my whole life. Now with this line-drawing technology it's just laughable. If the linesman hasn't seen it, you have to draw a line and sometimes even zoom in - it's not clear and obvious.

Unless they can make an A.I. that, at hyper speed, looks up similar situations, collects all the decisions that were made, review how the decisions were received or judge as wrong or right in the public view or official referee association (or whatever) - and then calculate what the right call is. Then, I might be in more favor of using VAR as much as they rely on it now.

How do you expect it to work if the ref doesn't look at the screen???

 

[lysglimt]

Watching Hacken - Molde - and a Hacken-player puts his studs straight into the legs of a Molde-player. Var-check for red card and Stuart Dallas decides - NAH, this isn't a red card. Shocking

 

[Moriarty]

How do you expect it to work if the ref doesn't look at the screen???

Fair point, but can a ref decline to look at a VAR replay of an incident? I don't know the answer to this. Suppose the ref sees an incident that he views as being within the laws, but he gets a voice in his ear telling him to view the monitor. Can the ref overrule that and play on or must he halt play on the say-so of the VAR people?

 

[Alex99]

Fair point, but can a ref decline to look at a VAR replay of an incident? I don't know the answer to this. Suppose the ref sees an incident that he views as being within the laws, but he gets a voice in his ear telling him to view the monitor. Can the ref overrule that and play on or must he halt play on the say-so of the VAR people?

I seem to remember an incident at some point where the ref was advised to look at the monitor and he said he was happy with his decision and didn't bother.

 

[RedDevil@84]

presumably VAR decided lad standing by Onana wasn’t interfering (oh good, another subjective offside decision ).

Or they didn't bother to check or forgot about it due to incompetence or they were biased. Nobody knows what they do inside.
It could be anything.
Unless VAR room is mic'd up, we have no clue what they are checking.

 

[Moriarty]

I seem to remember an incident at some point where the ref was advised to look at the monitor and he said he was happy with his decision and didn't bother.

Thanks for that.

 

[Alex99]

How do you expect it to work if the ref doesn't look at the screen???

The ref doesn't always look at the monitor though. That's why there's always a big "ooh, he's been called over to the monitor" from the commentators when he is.

I can see the argument behind it. With the "clear and obvious" guidance we keep hearing about, and the understanding that it's one of the top refs actually monitoring the VAR, if the on-field ref has missed something clear and obvious, then it should just be a case of the VAR official telling him what the decision should be.

If they need to continuously look at slow motion replays and single frames zoomed in 10 times from multiple different angles, then still pass it on to the ref to make the final call, it's blatantly not a clear and obvious error.

 

[Fergies Gum]

I seem to remember an incident at some point where the ref was advised to look at the monitor and he said he was happy with his decision and didn't bother.

Was that in the last world cup? I recall this happening as well.

 

[adexkola]

VAR prevented a goal from being incorrectly ruled off for offside, Paqueta's goal against Olympiacos.

Carry on

 

[CoopersDream]

Was that in the last world cup? I recall this happening as well.

It also happened in the CL a few weeks back.

 

[Alex99]

Was that in the last world cup? I recall this happening as well.

Genuinely can't remember when, I just remember that the commentators and pundits clearly didn't know how to react. They were simultaneously praising him for having faith in his decision and not wasting time with a lengthy check, while sort of criticising him for not using the technology at his disposal.

 

[Oranges038]

Watching Hacken - Molde - and a Hacken-player puts his studs straight into the legs of a Molde-player. Var-check for red card and Stuart Dallas decides - NAH, this isn't a red card. Shocking

Doesn't he play for Leeds?

I thought you meant Hugh Dallas, but he must be 100 by now.

Looked it up, it was Andrew Dallas. Scottish referee team out for that game, to be fair you'd have to a lot more than put studs on a player for them to send you off, probably have to take his leg off at the knee and even then, it might only be a yellow.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

VAR prevented a goal from being incorrectly ruled off for offside, Paqueta's goal against Olympiacos.

Carry on

You say that as though this somehow makes up for umpteen great goals being disallowed because lines drawn on computer screens of indeterminate thickness have deemed that someone’s armpit is in an offside position. Never mind the inability to properly celebrate every fecking goal scored in the VAR era with even a hint of offside.

It definitely doesn’t.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

The use of the monitor at the side of the pitch is still very confused in football. The on field referee still must have ultimate authority and if he wants to refer to video evidence, he should be able to do so and he can work through the decision with the VAR should he seek an additional view. He must then make the final decision based on what he has seen. That to me is using technology to aid refereeing.

At the moment, the game is being re refereed off site and on field referees are merely puppets on strings when called to view an incident on the screen. It’s all so back to front.

 

[LDUred]

It's just so selective. Most people don't think Rashford intentionally fouled the Copenhagen player, and yet in the same game you see a centre back wrap his arms around Hojlund before elbowing him in the face, when it is a clear off the ball incident. Hojlund goes down holding his face, but nothing is done.

I don't know how you are supposed to accept that standard of officiating from something designed to improve the game.

 

[fallengt]

Offside call's in liverpool game was actually ridiculous.

 

[tob]

How do you expect it to work if the ref doesn't look at the screen???

What do you mean?

The referees are allowed to make a decision based on the information given by VAR-officials. The ref doesn’t always need to look at a replay on screen.

“The original decision given by the referee will not be changed unless the video review clearly shows that the decision was a ‘clear and obvious error’.”

So in my mind, if the VAR officials can’t determine if the on-pitch call was right or wrong, then it’s not a clear and obvious error.

The ref doesn't always look at the monitor though. That's why there's always a big "ooh, he's been called over to the monitor" from the commentators when he is.

I can see the argument behind it. With the "clear and obvious" guidance we keep hearing about, and the understanding that it's one of the top refs actually monitoring the VAR, if the on-field ref has missed something clear and obvious, then it should just be a case of the VAR official telling him what the decision should be.

If they need to continuously look at slow motion replays and single frames zoomed in 10 times from multiple different angles, then still pass it on to the ref to make the final call, it's blatantly not a clear and obvious error.

Right. The whole review for the on-pitch referees contradicts the ‘clear and obvious’.

 

[DJ_21]

VAR is against us! Goal against Brighton ball out of play. Newcastles stood against Arsenal. The handball against spurs was the clearest, we didn’t get a pen for it. The pull on the city man that gave them a pen. Arsenal defender dragged our attacker down and no pen. We should be writing to the VAR and the officials and put a formal complaint in. Costing us to many times. They’re not consistent… how on earth are decisions still getting made wrong when they’ve got the technology to help them. It’s an absolute shambles and it can be the difference from a team winning the league or not, or from finishing top 4 or getting relegated. Either be consistent or scrap it!

 

[AndySmith1990]

It's turned the sport into a farce. I long for the days when it didn't exist

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I know my anti-VAR stance is real when I can watch Liverpool denied a late equaliser last night, due to an extremely fussy call, and remain 100% committed to my hatred of the stupid thing.

 

[Hughes35]

The offside player was right in front of Onana which will have impacted his ability to save the shot, we had one ruled out against Burnley for the same scenario.

Yep, agree. As I said, I see the argument bit it's different to the one in our last PL game.

 

[Hughes35]

It was more offside than Maguire was against Fulham. Maguire didn't have a touch or affect anything since the ball went to Garnacho who was onside but because his shoulder was slighy passed a Fulham player on a still shot it was deemed offside. The Copenhagen player was directly affecting and obstructing Onana's line of sight.

Not for me but I do see that viewpoint and think it's falid.

 

[Doracle]

Not for me but I do see that viewpoint and think it's falid.

Ignoring the Maguire one, did you see the Caicedo goal which was ruled out on Monday out of interest?

 

[terraloo]

The ref doesn't always look at the monitor though. That's why there's always a big "ooh, he's been called over to the monitor" from the commentators when he is.

I can see the argument behind it. With the "clear and obvious" guidance we keep hearing about, and the understanding that it's one of the top refs actually monitoring the VAR, if the on-field ref has missed something clear and obvious, then it should just be a case of the VAR official telling him what the decision should be.

If they need to continuously look at slow motion replays and single frames zoomed in 10 times from multiple different angles, then still pass it on to the ref to make the final call, it's blatantly not a clear and obvious error.

FIFA dictates the final decision is on the field so save an incident like a missed offside ( ironically it seems that most do get called by asst refs )it’s just we don’t see the flag till after the phase of play.

Penalties if not seen on field within the protocol are meant to be reviewed as as subject off sides again if missed

Bear in mind every goal/ penalty and red card are looked at as a matter of course . VAR was never going to be good for the game

 

[terraloo]

Ignoring the Maguire one, did you see the Caicedo goal which was ruled out on Monday out of interest?

I saw it and can see why it was disallowed within the current laws as to why the Sterling one was likewise ruled off the stupid part of that one if Sterling had rolled the ball to Jackson and he put it in its highly unlikely it would have been chalked off

 

[terraloo]

How that elbow was not 2nd yellow is beyond ridiculous. Ref and VAR had showed they wouldn't tolerate dangerous play, intentional or not. They replayed it many times on big screen but VAR decided to ignore it. Quite spectacular that anyone thinks this is "human error"
Ref got lucky media only highlight redcard but not this one

VAR didn’t ignore it they just viewed it as not being a straight red. VAR isn’t allowed to suggest a yellow is issued be it a first offence or a second

 

[terraloo]

Fair point, but can a ref decline to look at a VAR replay of an incident? I don't know the answer to this. Suppose the ref sees an incident that he views as being within the laws, but he gets a voice in his ear telling him to view the monitor. Can the ref overrule that and play on or must he halt play on the say-so of the VAR people?

No if the VAR asks the ref to review an on field call then they are obliged to look at but not obliged to change their original decision

 

[Doracle]

I saw it and can see why it was disallowed within the current laws as to why the Sterling one was likewise ruled off the stupid part of that one if Sterling had rolled the ball to Jackson and he put it in its highly unlikely it would have been chalked off

Yes, I would not have disallowed it because it had no impact on the keeper in my view but my main point was it’s hard to explain why that was disallowed and the Copenhagen one, with an attacker standing right in front of Onana, was not.

The handball rule is utterly ridiculous but we all know that. The only ones who don’t seem to be the rule makers.

 

[terraloo]

Yes, I would not have disallowed it because it had no impact on the keeper in my view but my main point was it’s hard to explain why that was disallowed and the Copenhagen one, with an attacker standing right in front of Onana, was not.

The handball rule is utterly ridiculous but we all know that. The only ones who don’t seem to be the rule makers.

Ironically the offside rule re players being active isn’t one that theFA has gone its own way on. The IFAB wording is copied word for word.

I can only think, and that’s because I can’t see why both were allowed or both disallowed is distance but other than that scratching my head

 

[Moston Red]

"seem to be." we've been getting wrecked all season

Yeah, the Diaz “off side” ruling was the worst var decision I’ve seen. Something needs to change, it’s ruining the game.

 

[Longshanks]

I do think we need to go a system where reviews are called by teams. It was meant to be for clear and obvious errors i.e. howlers. Now feels like the entire game is getting re-refereed and micromanaged very inconsistently by someone watching slo-mo and using still images to make subjective calls. Calls that noone ever complained about before VAR.

Give the teams 2 reviews each to be called by captain or coach. No slo Mo's or still images because they just muddy the waters.

They system should be used to just stop the genuine mistakes, not used to turnover subjective calls.

 

[Devil77]

Would still prefer the occasional mistakes over what we have today with VAR. the only good rule introduced over the past 40 years is the no back pass rule. Wish the governing bodies would stay away and concentrate on preventing unfair financial advantages.

 

[Heinzesight]

Only just remembered we had those extra officials near the goals for a few years. This worked better than VAR.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Was listening to under the cosh podcast earlier and they had Danny Simpson on, he told a story how in one game when they were going for the league drinkwater should have been sent off second yellow but clattenburg said to him you should be off but I want you to win. Wtf. I would never have thought there was truth in this but it’s hard to doubt it these days, got me thinking too, was it clattenberg who reffd the spurs Chelsea game towards the end of that season

 

[Ralaks]

Was listening to under the cosh podcast earlier and they had Danny Simpson on, he told a story how in one game when they were going for the league drinkwater should have been sent off second yellow but clattenburg said to him you should be off but I want you to win. Wtf. I would never have thought there was truth in this but it’s hard to doubt it these days, got me thinking too, was it clattenberg who reffd the spurs Chelsea game towards the end of that season

Yeah it was, later also revealing his gameplan was to "let Spurs lose the title" instead of following the rules and sending half the team off, because the headlines would be "Clattenburg cost Spurs the title". That and the Dean admission just shows the current setup has zero trust worthyness and it all needs to be completely revamped.

Unless we want the premier league to become a WWE type of spectacle, which honestly doesnt seem too unbelievable at PGMOL, SKY and premier league officials..

 

[Alex99]

Was listening to under the cosh podcast earlier and they had Danny Simpson on, he told a story how in one game when they were going for the league drinkwater should have been sent off second yellow but clattenburg said to him you should be off but I want you to win. Wtf. I would never have thought there was truth in this but it’s hard to doubt it these days, got me thinking too, was it clattenberg who reffd the spurs Chelsea game towards the end of that season

Clattenburg has said that he saw himself as the person responsible for orchestrating the match, not just enforcing the rules, and that he'd basically not do his job if he thought it'd add to the spectacle.