Look at the stats. We received 5 more in the same season as he complained. Then 5 in the 21/22 season and the 4 more with Ten Hag. It is very easy to check these things.
VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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Id say handballs is a bit difficult as it should be based on fairness and to some extent whether the handball is intentional. Else you could just cross the ball into an arm from 2 meters away with the system giving a pen. That wouldnt be fair. You could of course just add a rule about minimal amount of metres travelled, but not sure it’d catch all.
Only just seen our disallowed goal and think it was a pretty clear offside. Maguire was definitely interfering with play.
and you can kind of understand it when there could be a player blocking view etc. worse now when they get replay and same situation ruled differently
Embarrassing from Arsenal.
Click on the link i posted. Klopp said it in Jan 2021. The following season was 21/22, you got 5 pens that season, 3 in 22/23 and 1 so far that season. That's 9.
if I do not make attempt at ball and just block out the defender that could, that’s ok? Because we saw that in our match with Arsenal and varlet it go
this is the problem. Fans want consistency when you get to watch plays back and then make call. But there is none at all on numerous occasions.
look at Gallagher when asked to compare calls on handballs in two separate matches. He stumbles and only comments on the one given because he knows he can’t explain any difference without time to prep to come up with some extraordinary excuse
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I don’t think this is embarrassing at all. I’m actually more embarrassed at how passive our club is and how little we appear to care.
Love it.Teams need to be putting pressure on PGMOL for more transparency on how they operate.
The audio released from the Liverpool incident as a result of pressure really opened my eyes to level of amateurism in refereeing in this country. The VAR replay operator (probably some 25 year old with degree in graphics design) even knew they fecked up and was trying to correct the VAR ref.
This has nothing to do with Liverpool and the incidents are nowhere near similar.
It’s embarrassing
Me either, if Football fans had any sense they would be putting pressure on their clubs to band together and force change in VAR rather than laughing at their oppositions bad calls before crying about it when the bad call eventually is against them (by which time they don't have the support of their opposition due to mocking them previously).
The sentiment or principle isn't embarrassing necessarily. The embarrassing part is that Arsenal are the club doing it having received largely favourable refereeing decisions, aside from one genuine mistake over an offside last year.
Arsenal don't care about improving refereeing standards. If they did, this statement would have been released after the United game when Arsenal were gifted a win with the Garnacho phantom offside. This is about pressure of receiving perceived favourable treatment in the future.
Two of the bones of contention, out of play and offsides, can't be solved until the tech is implemented - which won't be this season.
So we're really just talking about the foul, which is just a subjective decision, which you will never get rid of.
As @Garnacho's Shoelaces says, they're not bothered about the refereeing standards until it affects them and why does one club have some special insight that others don't? It should be done as a collective group of premier League clubs with real suggestions, rather than just a whinge after a decision goes against you.
It definitely is embarrassing, mere weeks ago Arteta said himself that "mistakes happen"
Yet when it goes against them, they release a statement complaining about the very thing they were defending weeks ago.
As Lash, Cyberman and Garnacho's shoelaces state too, it's not the fact that they are complaining about VAR as it does need to be more aligned across the board. Maguire/Akanji incidents are very very similar and United don't get the goal City do. Yesterday Newcastle got the benefit of the doubt whereas United it's goal disallowed.Everyone is not aligned.
my problem is it was forsenic-like check. I dont get the impression that goals we score are studied in order to chalk them off
Neville is paid for protecting the refs. That much is clear to me
While we certainly have not been lucky with penalties since Ten Hag came in, we were absolutely on the other end during Ole's time. During Ole's almost 3 years at the wheel we received 32 penalties (according to transfermarkt) - most in the premier league. We also had an abysmal number of touches in the oppo box which had us at well under 100 for each penalty. Whether the change is the impact of Klopp's whining causing refs to be harsher on us, different style of play or whatever, it is what it is.
The Liverpool decision and Newcastle's goal yesterday are not even remotely comparable.
PGMOL should publicly respond to Arsenal and ask them to break down the situation, where the error in decision was and quote the specific rule backing it up their determination.
I agree the consistency and quality of refereeing needs to be addressed, but Arsenal should not be allowed to do this publicly. Clubs should do it behind closed doors and stop making the whole thing even more of a circus.
Arsenal have had many poor decisions go against us. Just look look back through this thread. Every time it happens the very next comment is a pity party for United.
“That was judged out when it was Rashford”
“That was given offside when it was Garnacho”.
“They don’t give that penalty if it was Hojland”.
Sometimes there’s even complaints about the decisions that have gone your way.
“Look at the keeper fouling Jesus, getting away with it and everybody moves on. The media talked about Onana doing the same thing at Wolves for weeks.”
Arsenal get screwed over, United escape punishment for a stonewall penalty and the real victims are… United.
Sometimes I feel like if logged into RAWK by mistake (and trust me - it would be a mistake).
It says so much about how weak-minded PL refs that they respond to this type of statement not by being better at their job but instead just cowering to the complaining team.
Christ, give us some rugby refs. Nigel Owens wouldn't put up with this shit, even if he is retired.
Christ, give us some rugby refs. Nigel Owens wouldn't put up with this shit, even if he is retired.
My biggest complaint is that it has ruined the flow of the game and excitement of the moment. Even when it doesn’t stop play it’s pottering around in the background and you’re waiting for it to conclude rather than being 100% focused on the moment on the pitch. Either abandon it or do like American football and let the manager challenge one or two decisions a game. If some decisions are wrong so be it, get on with the game rather than all this faffing about.
Well.... this is a United forum?
There is still enough measured debate among rival fans on here to not moan about it.
Maybe you should release a public statement on it.
1) The ball appeared to be out of play from the best available angle. Seeing as they are happy to make calls like Rashford’s with the best available angle, if they were consistent goal would not be given.
2) Joelinton pushes Gabriel in the back with both arms before the ball is even in his vicinity. Otherwise known as a foul.
3) The lines weren’t drawn for the offside as there were “too many bodies”. This is particularly perplexing as there are literally the minimum number of bodies (passer / receiver / defender) involved in the decision.
I know Arteta isn’t the most likeable fella for opposition fans, but poor officiating shouldn’t be celebrated just because your club happens to not be on the receiving end on this occasion. Especially when the beneficiaries of these decisions seem to disproportionally be clubs owned by States that offer our referees lucrative freelance opportunities.
Didn't seem too obvious to the VAR officials and the Ref as they needed the best part of 5 minutes and a monitor check to make a decision.
And yeah Maguire made a movement towards the ball when the free kick came in, its a free kick what else is he supposed to do. But it sailed way over his head, no idea how he impeded anyone, he didn't block the keepers line of sight either. If that's an offside its a very low bar for disallowing a goal. And if that's how the rules are being interpreted this season there must have been 5-6 similar goals disallowed every week so far.
I'll be interested to see if I see it actually happens again this season.
My comment was in response to idea that Arsenal have only had a single decision go against us in the last year. You can clearly see that’s false just by going back a few pages in this very thread.
And it was more a jab at RAWK than anything else.
I do think RedCafe is trending in a RAWKish direction, though. Which is never a good thing.
1. Impossible to judge without goal line technology. Rashford one was weird and should have been allowed without being able to be certain, so think that was fine yesterday.
2. Subjective and not clear and obvious.
3. No angle to determine the final touch off Joelinton, therefore hard to tell at what point Gordon was onside / offside.
Think they took the right approach yesterday aka. no clear and obvious reason to disallow the goal. This should be how VAR works because we want to see more goals.
I don't think managers give a damn about referring decisions as long as they are going their way. If the call was on the other foot, would Arteta stand with Newcastle and Eddie Howe. No way, he'd say the goal was fine, just like Howe did.
I think it’s ridiculous that the Arsenal goal somehow got involved in the VAR bashing. That goal was given on the field and there was no clear reason for VAR to overturn it. This is exactly what most fans want so not sure how it needs PGMOL review etc
Wait, they've actually gone and released an official club statement because they didn't get a decision?
Fair enough, I remember the Brentford offside last season, and this statement would have looked less silly after that instead.
Football in general is tending RAWKish.
Remind me again why the offside rule was introduced into football?
In 30+ years of watching football, I cannot remember a goal being disallowed because someone who didn't even touch the ball, didn't impede anyone and didn't distract the keeper or block his view was marginally offside at the time the initial ball was played.
Maybe I'm just ignorant to this being a common occurence these days but after googling and youtubing yesterday I couldn't find a video of a goal being disallowed in similar circumstances.
Yeah, I agree with you there, that was just objectively wrong - they admitted to drawing the wrong lines.
The weird thing is, I think we didn’t complain about the Brentford mistake because it was clearly human error. And there’s only so heated up you can get about incompetence.
Whereas the Newcastle goal wasn’t disallowed for any of the three things that we’ve seen countless goals ruled out for. This indicates inconsistency at best and outright bias at worst.
Arsenal and Liverpool leading the table in xWN
(expected wet knickers)
(expected wet knickers)
It worked for Liverpool. It probably works for any team that has the guts to call out these shit decisions.Wait, they've actually gone and released an official club statement because they didn't get a decision?
We've been fecked over more than any other team these last two seasons - the stats back that up. But the club have done nothing about it.
Thing is you're a complete twat if you whinge about it when you don't get a decision, if you didn't whinge about it the time you got the decision. Arteta is a massive bellend at the best of times so him being a contradictive dickhead is a normal look for him.
The clubs are now hiding their poor performances in some matches behind a poor decision, it’s embarrassing. Arsenal were dreadful yesterday yet everyone is ignoring that. These statements by Arsenal and Liverpool beforehand are pathetic.
Much has already been said about some of the drawbacks of VAR, but I think one element that has changed is the heightened expectation of precision that has accompanied the introduction of the new technology. Whereas before, the occasional marginal offside or undetected foul in the run up to a goal was begrudingly accepted as part of the game, now, with the introduction of VAR, we have fans and clubs poring over the minutiae of the rulebook, viewing and reviewing slow motion replays in realtime and engaging in endless debates about subjective determinations that have always been a part of the game. In erstwhile eras, you just take the marginal decisions on the chin and try to take it in stride and worry about what you can control, but now, with these heightened expectations and the available technology, everything becomes a scandal.
There is an unspoken assumption that increased transparency will beget improved outcomes and enjoyment of the product, but I'm not so sure this is correct because it centers the referee too much. Who wants consumption of the game to become overly-focused on protracted exegesis of the rulebook and the interpretation thereof? In the main, the precision in refereeing has probably improved with the introduction of VAR, even if it may not be worth the other tradeoffs. Going further down that rabbit hole might lead to an incremental improvement in precision, but it will almost certainly be accompanied by additional tedium, "scandal", scrutiny and drama. Soon we will be scrutinizing the tone and timber of the official's voice in the audio replay, the time it takes to deliver a decision and the spirt versus the letter of Rule 5, subsection 4, romanette (ii) of the Rules. Tedious.
Until the AI robots take over, there is no way you are going to completely eliminate human error from how games are officiated, and even then the debate will have shifted to algorithmic bias. You risk further damaging the product in search of each incremental percentage point in improvement. Nobody makes much fuss when VAR corrects obviously incorrect decisions that would have been overlooked 10 years ago. Instead they shift the focus of their ire and attention on the more circumscribed universe of controversial decisions because fans will always do what fans do and their expectations for precision have been heightened to incorporate the capabilities of the new technology.
I'm not saying referees shouldn't be held accountable. I'm not saying periodic reviews for improvement and rule changes shouldn't happen. I'm not saying that even real-time process improvements like the one following the Liverpool incident should not be welcome. I just find the degree to which VAR and the referees have become the story every week to be tiresome because as technology and processes improve, fans and clubs will always recalibrate their expectations and take those improvements for granted.
Anyway, well done to Arteta for successfully diverting attention away from that poor showing.
There is an unspoken assumption that increased transparency will beget improved outcomes and enjoyment of the product, but I'm not so sure this is correct because it centers the referee too much. Who wants consumption of the game to become overly-focused on protracted exegesis of the rulebook and the interpretation thereof? In the main, the precision in refereeing has probably improved with the introduction of VAR, even if it may not be worth the other tradeoffs. Going further down that rabbit hole might lead to an incremental improvement in precision, but it will almost certainly be accompanied by additional tedium, "scandal", scrutiny and drama. Soon we will be scrutinizing the tone and timber of the official's voice in the audio replay, the time it takes to deliver a decision and the spirt versus the letter of Rule 5, subsection 4, romanette (ii) of the Rules. Tedious.
Until the AI robots take over, there is no way you are going to completely eliminate human error from how games are officiated, and even then the debate will have shifted to algorithmic bias. You risk further damaging the product in search of each incremental percentage point in improvement. Nobody makes much fuss when VAR corrects obviously incorrect decisions that would have been overlooked 10 years ago. Instead they shift the focus of their ire and attention on the more circumscribed universe of controversial decisions because fans will always do what fans do and their expectations for precision have been heightened to incorporate the capabilities of the new technology.
I'm not saying referees shouldn't be held accountable. I'm not saying periodic reviews for improvement and rule changes shouldn't happen. I'm not saying that even real-time process improvements like the one following the Liverpool incident should not be welcome. I just find the degree to which VAR and the referees have become the story every week to be tiresome because as technology and processes improve, fans and clubs will always recalibrate their expectations and take those improvements for granted.
Anyway, well done to Arteta for successfully diverting attention away from that poor showing.
The Liverpool one was for an objectively wrong decision from a breakdown in the actual VAR process. I can understand kicking up that kind of a stink about that.
This is just the kind of subjective call that teams have go against them every week. The manager having a whinge in the post match interview is par for the course, but giving it the big official club statement about something like that is pathetic.
That's probably because a poor decision is a poor decision regardless of how well a team played.
There are poor decisions throughout many games, issuing statements is just pathetic. Accept some go for you and some dont.