US Politics

[InfiniteBoredom]

Why should you bend to the imaginary claims of an authoritarian regime? It would basically be admitting defeat. „We shouldn’t have extended NATO“ is a traditional argument and frankly disgusting in its total disregard for the wishes and freedom of people in Eastern Europe. If Poland decided it wants to align itself with the west, that can’t be reversed just because Putin doesn’t like it.

It's not. It's admitting that Russia despite losing its prior prestige and sphere of influence is still a big power and must be treated accordingly. Gobbling up their former territories in the form of military alliance in an US-led coalition is the surest way to invoke animosity and tension.

The US also regularly bend to the imaginary claims of authoritarian regimes when it suits their interest, so let's not moralise about it. We are still living in a might is right world.

 

[Raoul]

Even under Obama there was a lot wrong, and the fact that he was unable to achieve more than he did on key issues due to the obstructionism of the rotten to the core GOP is a sign of a big problem.

I find it staggering that anyone could say with a straight face that there is nothing wrong with the US aside from Trump, and that's coming from someone who loves visiting the country.

Its not whether there's anything wrong, its whether or not the country is on the right political trajectory to resolve whatever the problem is. Under Obama, as opposed to Dubya or Trump, the country was definitely on the right track to resolve a vast majority of the major issues it needed to resolve.

 

[Rado_N]

Its not whether there's anything wrong, its whether or not the country is on the right political trajectory to resolve whatever the problem is. Under Obama, as opposed to Dubya or Trump, the country was definitely on the right track to resolve a vast majority of the major issues it needed to resolve.

Citizens United happened under Obama.

The problems are far more deep rooted and bigger than one office or the person holding it.

 

[Ubik]

Citizens United happened under Obama.

The problems are far more deep rooted and bigger than one office or the person holding it.

I agree generally with your second sentence, but remember that CU happened because the Supreme Court had enough GOP leaning justices. Losing the presidency last year was a massive blow to reversing course on that, and it could get a lot worse still.

 

[berbatrick]

Under Obama, as opposed to Dubya or Trump, the country was definitely on the right track to resolve a vast majority of the major issues it needed to resolve.

 

[Rado_N]

I agree generally with your second sentence, but remember that CU happened because the Supreme Court had enough GOP leaning justices. Losing the presidency last year was a massive blow to reversing course on that, and it could get a lot worse still.

That's true, but losing the House was just as big.

 

[Raoul]

Try using words.

 

[Raoul]

Citizens United happened under Obama.

The problems are far more deep rooted and bigger than one office or the person holding it.

But not because of Obama. It was after Dubya's supreme court nominees were put in place.

 

[berbatrick]

Try using words.

Your statement regarding Obama and the country's trajectory is contradicted by evidence.

 

[Raoul]

Your statement regarding Obama and the country's trajectory is contradicted by evidence.

Because you pasted a wages chart ? Try looking at the broader list of issues I noted above.

 

[Rado_N]

But not because of Obama. It was after Dubya's supreme court nominees were put in place.

I never said it was because of him, I was making the point that the POTUS isn't the be all and end all. Did you ignore the second sentence?

 

[Raoul]

I never said it was because of him, I was making the point that the POTUS isn't the be all and end all. Did you ignore the second sentence?

No I read it earlier. The problems in the US are down to money in politics, which as you correctly noted, are down to decisions like Citizens United. Remove the money or at least restrict it, then many of the problems we are seeing will gradually dissipate.

 

[Raoul]

In the meantime we have people like the Mooch pushing ideas like this....

 

[GiddyUp]

In the meantime we have people like the Mooch pushing ideas like this....

I would agree with this if employees had a profit sharing system with their companies. The vast majority don't though.

 

[Rado_N]

No I read it earlier. The problems in the US are down to money in politics, which as you correctly noted, are down to decisions like Citizens United. Remove the money or at least restrict it, then many of the problems we are seeing will gradually dissipate.

Which flies in the face of your "get rid of Trump and everything is fine" comment.

Getting rid of the money in politics would certainly help, but it wouldn't fix everything. There's fundamental ideological issues that will hold back real problem fixing change, that we can only hope will shift over generations.

 

[Raoul]

Which flies in the face of your "get rid of Trump and everything is fine" comment.

Getting rid of the money in politics would certainly help, but it wouldn't fix everything. There's fundamental ideological issues that will hold back real problem fixing change, that we can only hope will shift over generations.

Its implicit that getting rid of Trump would go a long way towards restoring the trajectory back into the Obama direction, which would of course result in different SCOTUS picks and eventually a reversal of Citizens United and other bad decisions. They are all woven into decisions made by Presidents.

Getting rid of the influence of money would definitely help since allowing wealthy elites to buy campaigns and influence audiences obviously has an effect on ideological choices voters make when electing the politicians whose policies affect their lives, and more broadly the country as a whole.

 

[berbatrick]

Because you pasted a wages chart ? Try looking at the broader list of issues I noted above.

Economic issues, like the fact that real wages have stagnated for 40 years despite increasing productivity, are the most fundamental of any issues, and many domestic issues will be caused directly or indirectly by the economic malaise.

About the specific progress you mentioned:
Despite the great step forward represented by the election of a black president, the unpunished murder of black people required a mass movement during his term which still continues. African-American median wealth suffered under the 1st African-American president.

Whatever the actions taken by Obama against climate change, they resulted in effectively a (completely inadequate) flat line -the significant fall from 2006-08 (pre-Obama) reflects the uncomfortable fact that emissions track well with economic activity, not policy.

No point discussing foreign policy.

 

[Raoul]

Economic issues, like the fact that real wages have stagnated for 40 years despite increasing productivity, are the most fundamental of any issues, and many domestic issues will be caused directly or indirectly by the economic malaise.

About the specific progress you mentioned:
Despite the great step forward represented by the election of a black president, the unpunished murder of black people required a mass movement during his term which still continues. African-American median wealth suffered under the 1st African-American president.

Whatever the actions taken by Obama against climate change, they resulted in effectively a (completely inadequate) flat line -the significant fall from 2006-08 (pre-Obama) reflects the uncomfortable fact that emissions track well with economic activity, not policy.

No point discussing foreign policy.

You have to take each of the issues as a step in the right direction. Prior to Obama, the idea of a black President was a pipe dream. That doesn't mean the lower tier problems of inequality would suddenly disappear but it was a step in the right direction and it would take several Presidential cycles to make a dent in the problems you describe. Obama was spot on, on Climate change, most Foreign Policy, the economic recovery etc. He knew that there would be little change during his brief 8 years, but that he could prevent the country from drifting the wrong direction as it would have under 8 more years of a Republican, which he did.

 

[Eboue]

having a black president means feck all if during his administration black wealth fell massively. here's a link without any of those damn charts so maybe you can try to actually listen to what other people are saying

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ap_between_whites_and_blacks_is_widening.html

 

[Eboue]

this is the richest country in the world in 2017

 

[Raoul]

this is the richest country in the world in 2017

Maybe the Dems that run LA and CA need to look at this.

 

[Adisa]

this is the richest country in the world in 2017

Is this the infamous Skid row?

 

[crappycraperson]

@berbatrick @Eboue I have said it before but worth repeating that Trump presidency is a dream come true for the establishment. His buffoonery has made them look much better as a result. You had people like Maher openly vying for "Classic Republicans". Even once Trump is taken down, the after effects would ensure than any other out of the field political movement, even one from the left, would be met with massive skepticism and would be unlikely to get the requisite support from the general populace. For another example, look at how likes of Clapper have now suddenly gained credibility given they spoke out a little against Trump, when earlier he was reviled by a lot of folks for openly lying about invading citizen's privacy. Same is true for other institutions like FBI, CIA etc.

 

[Raoul]

@berbatrick @Eboue I have said it before but worth repeating that Trump presidency is dream come true for establishment. His buffoonery has made them look much better as a result. You had people like Maher openly vying for "Classic Republicans". Even once Trump is taken down, the after effects would ensure than any other out of the field political movement, even one from the left, would be met with massive skepticism and would be unlikely to get the requisite support from general populace. For another example, look at how likes of Clapper have now suddenly gained credibility given they spoke out a little against Trump, when earlier he was reviled by a lot of folks for openly lying about invading citizen's privacy. Same is true for other institutions like FBI, CIA etc.

You're probably right. Ultimately progress happens through cooperation and a bit of consensus building.

 

[Silva]

The American left has a lot of reason to doubt that narrative when the democratic establishment has done its best to make policies like universal healthcare look like the second coming of Joseph Stalin.

 

[fishfingers15]

@berbatrick @Eboue I have said it before but worth repeating that Trump presidency is a dream come true for the establishment. His buffoonery has made them look much better as a result. You had people like Maher openly vying for "Classic Republicans". Even once Trump is taken down, the after effects would ensure than any other out of the field political movement, even one from the left, would be met with massive skepticism and would be unlikely to get the requisite support from the general populace. For another example, look at how likes of Clapper have now suddenly gained credibility given they spoke out a little against Trump, when earlier he was reviled by a lot of folks for openly lying about invading citizen's privacy. Same is true for other institutions like FBI, CIA etc.

What do you expect though? Trump and his government has made it normal to lie about anything and double down on it with no shame.

 

[crappycraperson]

What do you expect though? Trump and his government has made it normal to lie about anything and double down on it with no shame.

Trump obviously does not belong anywhere near the white house or any position of political authority. But political system in US still needed reform before him. The setback to the same cause is worth reflecting over rather than just 24/7 concern over yet another stupid tweet by Trump. Forget Republicans, but Obama himself, with his failure to even try to fix any accountability for 2008 financial crisis by any meaningful prosecution or change to banking industry, proved the stronghold big money has on US policymakers. They don't indulge in brazen corruption like in India but it is still corruption even if they may term it 'lobbying'.

 

[Raoul]

The American left has a lot of reason to doubt that narrative when the democratic establishment has done its best to make policies like universal healthcare look like the second coming of Joseph Stalin.

Because they can't get it passed in a bifurcated political system where Republicans are half of the government. Also, before Bernie's run last year there wasn't adequate case for single payer in the grass roots. I'm sure it will grow in future cycles, but don't expect it to be passed unless there's a massive Democratic wave this year and a Dem President who runs on it and beats Trump in 2020. The odds of that are not good.

 

[fcbforever]

having a black president means feck all if during his administration black wealth fell massively. here's a link without any of those damn charts so maybe you can try to actually listen to what other people are saying

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ap_between_whites_and_blacks_is_widening.html

In his world, the US is just the best, the only ones allowed to criticize it are Americans themselves and Trump is just some freak accident.

 

[Raoul]

In his world, the US is just the best, the only ones allowed to criticize it are Americans themselves and Trump is just some freak accident.

Not in my world. I just don't buy your view about Europe being all that, especially during a time when supranationalism is against the ropes.

 

[fcbforever]

Not in my world. I just don't buy your view about Europe being all that, especially during a time when supranationalism is against the ropes.

What’s that got to do with your continued believe that trump was just an accident due to the evil electoral college? Because for me and most people, he’s merely a symptom of a system and a country rotten to its core. It’s a country which have birth to the tea party and re-elected George W. Bush.

 

[Raoul]

What’s that got to do with your continued believe that trump was just an accident due to the evil electoral college? Because for me and most people, he’s merely a symptom of a system and a country rotten to its core. It’s a country which have birth to the tea party and re-elected George W. Bush.

Nothing wrong with entertaining a broad range of political views as long as the system itself isn't ruled by wealthy elites, which is the main problem. Take the money issue off the table and governance will improve.

 

[fcbforever]

Nothing wrong with entertaining a broad range of political views as long as the system itself isn't ruled by wealthy elites, which is the main problem. Take the money issue off the table and governance will improve.

And this will somehow be a solution to a America of two realities?

 

[Raoul]

And this will somehow be a solution to a America of two realities?

That's up to the citizens to decide based on a healthy debate of ideas.

 

[Eboue]

 

[berbatrick]

Spank me daddy

 

[Carolina Red]

Spank me daddy

Can somebody tell me why the feck this unemployed sheriff from MILWAUKEE is (still) wearing a damn cowboy hat?

 

[Eboue]

the new york times...welcome to the resistance

 

[Pexbo]

the new york times...welcome to the resistance

The “NY Times” said that? I bet he/she knows that “4 chan” guy.

I’ll be interested to see exactly who wrote that in the NY Times though.

 

[Eboue]

as if the ny times didnt make the decision to publish that. or this.



or this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/25/us/ohio-hovater-white-nationalist.html

or this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/trump-interview-excerpts.html

or this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/opinion/metoo-damon-too-far.html

or this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/opinion/climate-of-complete-certainty.html

or this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/opinion/megyn-kelly-today.html

or this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/23/technology/silicon-valley-men-backlash-gender-scandals.html

or this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/us/trump-harvey-white-house-memo.html

or this

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/opinion/womens-march-progressives-hate.html

or this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/17/opinion/what-to-ask-about-russian-hacking.html

or this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/opinion/erik-prince-contractors-afghanistan.html

or this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/opinion/trump-charlottesville-white-supremacy.html