US Politics

Raoul said:
It certainly doesn't need to be made great again. Get rid of Trump its doing just fine.
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No, it's not. The Republican party is rotten to the core. Trump is doing the exact same things other republicans would do, just less effectively. President Mike Pence would want the same horrible legislation and would actually be able to get it passed.
 
Eboue said:
No, it's not. The Republican party is rotten to the core. Trump is doing the exact same things other republicans would do, just less effectively. President Mike Pence would want the same horrible legislation and would actually be able to get it passed.
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Trump is far worse than any Republican. He is literally doing the bidding of what a Russian influence campaign planned he would - delegitimizing institutions, eroding freedoms, pitting citizen groups against one another, ignoring Presidential norms etc. No ordinary Republican would come anywhere close to his level of destabilization.
 
Raoul said:
Trump is far worse than any Republican. He is literally doing the bidding of what a Russian influence campaign planned he would - delegitimizing institutions, eroding freedoms, pitting citizen groups against one another, ignoring Presidential norms etc. No ordinary Republican would come anywhere close to his level of destabilization.
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McConnel just refused to vote on a SC nominee. Delegitimizing institutions? check. The entire Republican platform pits citizen groups against each other. check. widespread disenfranchisement from every level of government under Republican control in almost every state in the coubtry. eroding freedoms? check. Bush and Obama were responsible for unprecendented expansion in powers of the executive branch. ignoring presidential norms? check.
 
Raoul said:
Trump is far worse than any Republican. He is literally doing the bidding of what a Russian influence campaign planned he would - delegitimizing institutions, eroding freedoms, pitting citizen groups against one another, ignoring Presidential norms etc. No ordinary Republican would come anywhere close to his level of destabilization.
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All of that doesn’t change the fact political propaganda convinced large enough portions of your populace that universal healthcare is bad, free college education is the work of Satan and the teaching of evolution is ruining the life of American teenagers. I admire your optimism, but almost half of the American population is lost to the western world for the western world.

It’s one of the reasons I strongly believe Europeans need to distance themselves as much as possible from the US. Because at this point, dealing with the Chinese is just as likely to give positive results for us, our environment and our security.
 
fcbforever said:
All of that doesn’t change the fact political propaganda convinced large enough portions of your populace that universal healthcare is bad, free college education is the work of Satan and the teaching of evolution is ruining the life of American teenagers. I admire your optimism, but almost half of the American population is lost to the western world for the western world.
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It wasn't political propaganda - its the perceived norm in American society. You can't have an under-regulated country that is run by corporate profits that also does a good job of providing top notch health care to its citizens. The two are incompatible since one privileges profit logic over the right to have health care.
 
Eboue said:
McConnel just refused to vote on a SC nominee. Delegitimizing institutions? check. The entire Republican platform pits citizen groups against each other. check. widespread disenfranchisement from every level of government under Republican control in almost every state in the coubtry. eroding freedoms? check. Bush and Obama were responsible for unprecendented expansion in powers of the executive branch. ignoring presidential norms? check.
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Not nearly close to Trump's level.
 
Raoul said:
It wasn't political propaganda - its the perceived norm in American society. You can't have an under-regulated country that is run by corporate profits that also does a good job of providing top notch health care to its citizens. The two are incompatible since one privileges profit logic over the right to have health care.
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If you think that this is the perceived norm in American society, that’s an even stronger argument for us Europeans to distance ourselves from the US. Bye bye, and please take your bases with you, because honestly, I‘m tired of financing middle eastern adventures with our tax money (yes, those 50‘s laws binding us to finance your civil servants and every new building in Germany are still in place, for some reason).
 
fcbforever said:
If you think that this is the perceived norm in American society, that’s an even stronger argument for us Europeans to distance ourselves from the US. Bye bye, and please take your bases with you, because honestly, I‘m tired of financing middle eastern adventures with our tax money (yes, those 50‘s laws binding us to finance your civil servants and every new building in Germany are still in place, for some reason).
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Wishful thinking on your part. The relationship will endure irrespective of who is in charge of Europe or the US. There's too much economic and security interdependency to disrupt it.
 
Trump's (obviously) much worse in a diplomatic sense insofar as he's the sort of guy who has the potential to cause a war due to what he tweets, but if you're someone who's worrying about, say, healthcare, then a mainstream Republican who knows how to conduct himself onstage but is repulsive behind the scenes policy-wise isn't really going to be any better than him, so long as you see politics as something more than how you present yourself in public.
 
Raoul said:
Trump is far worse than any Republican. He is literally doing the bidding of what a Russian influence campaign planned he would - delegitimizing institutions, eroding freedoms, pitting citizen groups against one another, ignoring Presidential norms etc. No ordinary Republican would come anywhere close to his level of destabilization.
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The Republicans pretty much spent the entirety of Obama's two terms just opposing him for the sake of it in attempts to grind the government to a halt. McConnell (I'm fairly sure it was him) said it was his primary goal to ensure Obama would be a one-term President, instead of...you know, ensuring the country was well-governed. Most of the Republicans at least tacitly backed Roy Moore, and most of them still at least somewhat back Trump or refuse to turn against them. No doubt they'll put the knives in when his ratings get low enough but they're actively allowing him to do all the things you describe when they have the power to do otherwise.
 
Cheesy said:
The Republicans pretty much spent the entirety of Obama's two terms just opposing him for the sake of it in attempts to grind the government to a halt. McConnell (I'm fairly sure it was him) said it was his primary goal to ensure Obama would be a one-term President, instead of...you know, ensuring the country was well-governed. Most of the Republicans at least tacitly backed Roy Moore, and most of them still at least somewhat back Trump or refuse to turn against them. No doubt they'll put the knives in when his ratings get low enough but they're actively allowing him to do all the things you describe when they have the power to do otherwise.
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True, but that's just the dynamic of American politics these days. The opposition party spends its opposition time undercutting the majority in order to make sure they don't move the country in their direction, then use the ensuing gridlock to make a public case that the majority are either dangerous or incompetent. If the Dems somehow regain control of the Senate next November, you can bet the house they would block Trump's next Supreme Court nominee under the same logic as McConnell used with Merrick Garland last year. The overarching problem is money in politics. That is the foundation for the country's inability to make progress on everything from healthcare to education to foreign policy. If wealthy interest groups can simply buy campaigns to promote their preferred policy outcomes, then the masses will continue to suffer and the country will continue to be run by wealthy elites.
 
Raoul said:
True, but that's just the dynamic of American politics these days. The opposition party spends its opposition time undercutting the majority in order to make sure they don't move the country in their direction, then use the ensuing gridlock to make a public case that the majority are either dangerous or incompetent. If the Dems somehow regain control of the Senate next November, you can bet the house they would block Trump's next Supreme Court nominee under the same logic as McConnell used with Merrick Garland last year. The overarching problem is money in politics. That is the foundation for the country's inability to make progress on everything from healthcare to education to foreign policy. If wealthy interest groups can simply buy campaigns to promote their preferred policy outcomes, then the masses will continue to suffer and the country will continue to be run by wealthy elites.
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Well yes, but Trump's the incredibly dangerous figure who threatens the countries democratic norms as you've described above. Obama, by contrast, was someone who the Republicans could've worked with...they opposed him to the point where they'd just oppose stuff for the sake of it that they'd have otherwise probably been supportive of had it come from their own side. See now how they've suddenly switched from being anti-Russian to tolerating someone who very likely benefited heavily from Russian interference and who's probably colluded with them in the past. On that front there's a clear difference.

The point about money in politics are fair but I'd argue it reinforces the point about how Trump's far from the only dangerous figure out there and that others aren't much better than him - someone working in politics for their own self-profit as opposed to for the people they've been elected to represented is subverting a ton of democratic norms.
 
https://www.politico.com/story/2017...ce-billionaire-donors-gop-ron-desantis-319622

After Donald Trump appeared to endorse Ron DeSantis’ campaign for Florida governor last week, a handful of the biggest and most influential billionaires in Republican politics threw their support behind the three-term GOP congressman, upending the race in the nation’s biggest swing state.

The stable of billionaires and millionaires listed on DeSantis’ “Finance Leadership Team,” obtained by POLITICO, includes casino magnate Sheldon Adelson, hedge fund heiress Rebekah Mercer, investment tycoon Foster Friess and other donors who have funded the conservative Koch brothers’ network and President Trump’s campaign. Just last week, Trump weighed in on Twitter to say that DeSantis “would make a GREAT Governor of Florida.”


DeSantis has yet to formally announce his 2018 campaign for governor, but his intentions to seek the office became clear in May after he established a state political committee, called the Fund for Florida’s Future, that’s allowed to raise and spend unlimited soft money from corporate contributors.

“This sets DeSantis apart from the rest. He will have the financial resources and the ground game and the Trump base to be an incredible statewide candidate,” said David Bossie, a DeSantis backer who founded the Citizens United conservative group, served as Trump’s deputy campaign manager and just co-authored the new “Let Trump Be Trump” book plugged by the president.
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Raoul said:
Wishful thinking on your part. The relationship will endure irrespective of who is in charge of Europe or the US. There's too much economic and security interdependency to disrupt it.
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We also have a relationship with China. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to limit our relationship with the US as much as possible. It’s something we need to do if we still want to stand up for our values.
 
fcbforever said:
We also have a relationship with China. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to limit our relationship with the US as much as possible. It’s something we need to do if we still want to stand up for our values.
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Countries aren't just values based - they are also interest, security, and economics based. Europe in its current guise would be overrun by Putin's Russia if not for the NATO threat.
 
Raoul said:
Countries aren't just values based - they are also interest, security, and economics based. Europe in its current guise would be overrun by Putin's Russia if not for the NATO threat.
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Yawn. Typical American response which honestly, could also come from a Trumpster. No, Russia doesn’t have the offensive capabilities to be any realistic threat to Europe.
 
fcbforever said:
Yawn. Typical American response which honestly, could also come from a Trumpster. No, Russia doesn’t have the offensive capabilities to be any realistic threat to Europe.
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Of course they do. Both militarily and in Cyber. If left to his own devices Putin could easily chip away at eastern Europe until the old Iron Curtain is back in place. The CSDP is not sufficient to stop him.
 
Raoul said:
Of course they do. Both militarily and in Cyber. If left to his own devices Putin could easily chip away at eastern Europe until the old Iron Curtain is back in place. The CSDP is not sufficient to stop him.
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You should probably inform yourself about the current state of the Russian military. Seriously, this is a trumpster response: „yada yada, you would be lost without us!“. Neither would it benefit Putin nor is he able to do it against a serious EU response. He could get the Baltic states for sure, at least for a little while, but he’s able to do that with or without US military assistance anyway so that’s not really an argument.

It’s not the first time you have criticized Republicans and their voters while at the same time, showing the same overstated believe in American exceptionalism and grandeur.
 
fcbforever said:
Yawn. Typical American response which honestly, could also come from a Trumpster. No, Russia doesn’t have the offensive capabilities to be any realistic threat to Europe.
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A cursory glance at the expansion trajectory of NATO post the Cuban missile crisis and even more so the fall of the Soviet Union would instantly invalidate the notion that Russia is the aggressor in Russo-European relation.

Of course, that is not to say Georgia or Crimea was justifiable, but the Western powers, specifically the US, should seriously reconsider their foreign policy towards Putin-led Russia, rather than reverting back to Cold War rhetoric, which is sadly where we are heading.
 
fcbforever said:
You should probably inform yourself about the current state of the Russian military. Seriously, this is a trumpster response: „yada yada, you would be lost without us!“. Neither would it benefit Putin nor is he able to do it against a serious EU response. He could get the Baltic states for sure, at least for a little while, but he’s able to do that with or without US military assistance anyway so that’s not really an argument.

It’s not the first time you have criticized Republicans and their voters while at the same time, showing the same overstated believe in American exceptionalism and grandeur.
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The Russian military (of which Cyber is a component) is more than capable of enough to influence governments from within (including obviously the US) in order to create the conditions for instability to where their military can finish the job from the outside. The EU defense policy is obviously a complete joke if you take NATO out of the equation. Europe itself is going backwards in that regards, so the correct answer is obviously yes, the EU needs NATO.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
A cursory glance at the expansion trajectory of NATO post the Cuban missile crisis and even more so the fall of the Soviet Union would instantly invalidate the notion that Russia is the aggressor in Russo-European relation.

Of course, that is not to say Georgia or Crimea was justifiable, but the Western powers, specifically the US, should seriously reconsider their foreign policy towards Putin-led Russia, rather than reverting back to Cold War rhetoric, which is sadly where we are heading.
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Conversely Russia could become a Democracy and all would be well. Corrupt, KGB styled dictatorships generally aren't well received in the present day system.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
A cursory glance at the expansion trajectory of NATO post the Cuban missile crisis and even more so the fall of the Soviet Union would instantly invalidate the notion that Russia is the aggressor in Russo-European relation.

Of course, that is not to say Georgia or Crimea was justifiable, but the Western powers, specifically the US, should seriously reconsider their foreign policy towards Putin-led Russia, rather than reverting back to Cold War rhetoric, which is sadly where we are heading.
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Why should you bend to the imaginary claims of an authoritarian regime? It would basically be admitting defeat. „We shouldn’t have extended NATO“ is a traditional argument and frankly disgusting in its total disregard for the wishes and freedom of people in Eastern Europe. If Poland decided it wants to align itself with the west, that can’t be reversed just because Putin doesn’t like it.

Raoul said:
The Russian military (of which Cyber is a component) is more than capable of enough to influence governments from within (including obviously the US) in order to create the conditions for instability to where their military can finish the job from the outside. The EU defense policy is obviously a complete joke if you take NATO out of the equation. Europe itself is going backwards in that regards, so the correct answer is obviously yes, the EU needs NATO.
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Oh yeah sure, we have seen how successful they have been here so far. And you don’t really seem to have any knowledge about the military situation in Europe, so you maybe should go back, read about it, and come back at a later point. If you still want to tell me then how easily Russia would overrun a bloc of countries with vastly superior defensive air capabilities, a bigger navy and ultimately a higher number of modern MBT‘s, I‘m willing to listen.
 
Rado_N said:
You really think Trump is the only problem with the US?

So until he was elected everything was just wonderful?
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Definitely on a positive trajectory during the Obama years. First black Pres elected, historic change in health care laws that had previously failed to be implemented for many decades, reducing foreign troops, dealing with climate change etc etc. Obama had things on the right track. That is obviously not guaranteed when the next guy comes into office and lefties are partially to blame for falling asleep at the wheel and thinking Obama's ways were here to stay last November.
 
fcbforever said:
Why should you bend to the imaginary claims of an authoritarian regime? It would basically be admitting defeat. „We shouldn’t have extended NATO“ is a traditional argument and frankly disgusting in its total disregard for the wishes and freedom of people in Eastern Europe. If Poland decided it wants to align itself with the west, that can’t be reversed just because Putin doesn’t like it.


Oh yeah sure, we have seen how successful they have been here so far. And you don’t really seem to have any knowledge about the military situation in Europe, so you maybe should go back, read about it, and come back at a later point. If you still want to tell me then how easily Russia would overrun a bloc of countries with vastly superior defensive air capabilities, a bigger navy and ultimately a higher number of modern MBT‘s, I‘m willing to listen.
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I was just at NATO HQ recently and have a pretty good understanding of EU Defense Policy.

The EU is second rate to NATO because the US. No one with any knowledge of the hard ware will dispute this. The EU also does not have the political will to act alone without NATO, which sort of makes its entire defense policy feckless and irrelevant.
 
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Raoul said:
Definitely on a positive trajectory during the Obama years. First black Pres elected, historic change in health care laws that had previously failed to be implemented for many decades, reducing foreign troops, dealing with climate change etc etc. Obama had things on the right track. That is obviously not guaranteed when the next guy comes into office and lefties are partially to blame for falling asleep at the wheel and thinking Obama's ways were here to stay last November.
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Even under Obama there was a lot wrong, and the fact that he was unable to achieve more than he did on key issues due to the obstructionism of the rotten to the core GOP is a sign of a big problem.

I find it staggering that anyone could say with a straight face that there is nothing wrong with the US aside from Trump, and that's coming from someone who loves visiting the country.
 
Silva said:
That's pretty bad reasoning. Clinton's campaign spent the last 3 months running "Hey, Republicans, we're your party now" ads.
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Its more of an indictment on the fact that there is no such thing as centrism any more. You're either on one side of the fence or the other.
 
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