Unpopular Opinions Thread

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Eric'sCollar said:
Cleverley, Evans and Welbeck have all played roles in the championship winning sides, they are good footballers. They are not Messi or Ronaldo but they are good players, to say otherwise is just absurd.
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I didn't say they aren't good players,but compared to the Class of 92 -(the group of players our academy bases it reputation on) they are somewhat of a disappointment, They are obviously not Messi or Ronaldo - i don't even think they should be in the same sentence as a Messi or Ronaldo - they shouldn't even be in the same sentence as a Rooney or Lampard. I am not taking away from their roles in helping the team win championships infact i honestly think Danny Welbeck's 1 goal in his only Premier League winning campaign (2012/13) out of 27 appearances was the most important goal of our season even more important than RVP's 26 goals and Rooney's 12 goals.

As for Cleverley - whose only premier league medal also came in the 2012/13 season (Hence, i fail to see what you meant by "role in championship winning sides"), he wasn't that much of a key player that season and failed to live up to the unfair Paul Scholes comparison, he did score a vital goal against villa and played well in some games but that 1 season where we had RVP single-handedly deliver the title to us doesn't cover up the fact that Tom Cleverley has been absolutely terrible in that centre mid position.

Jonny Evans is perhaps the only player amongst the trio you singled out to warrant some sort of adoration for his role in our defence over the years as he proved to be a solid player sometimes , but he has definitely been exposed this season and never actually became a top defender, you could argue that Ryan Shawcross is a much better defender than Jonny Evans.
 
Valencia puts in awful, predictable performances every week and occasionally has a good game because his trademark "kick it past the defender and run fast by him" or "kick the cross low and hard into the defenders feet" works once and he gets an assist. Even then I have no faith whatsoever when he gets the ball on the wing.

Falcao can leave.

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Non-United

-Pirlo is horrendously overrated
-Pogba leaving should not taint Sir Alex's legacy
-Messi is unarguably better than Ronaldo
 
Well your last sentence, you stated that haven't been good, so you did say it.

In regards to this post.
dxadel said:
As for Cleverley - whose only premier league medal also came in the 2012/13 season (Hence, i fail to see what you meant by "role in championship winning sides"),
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Well he played over 20 league games that season. I know how important RVP was but Cleverley played a role that season and in my opinion, it was an important one, I think people forget just how important everyones role is.


Jonny Evans is perhaps the only player amongst the trio you singled out to warrant some sort of adoration for his role in our defence over the years as he proved to be a solid player sometimes , but he has definitely been exposed this season and never actually became a top defender, you could argue that Ryan Shawcross is a much better defender than Jonny Evans.
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This was my original point, you can't say he hasn't actually been good and then say he has been solid. Yes, he didn't develop into what we wanted but he has had a fine stint at United, whether that continues, who knows.
 
I just don't see the hype around Adnan. Sure he plays like he's unfazed by everything that happens on the field, but there's nothing about his footballing ability that really stands out as anything special. He looks like he knows what he needs to do on the pitch, but the actual end product is almost always lacking because his technique falls short of what's required to pull off what he's attempting.
 
Eric'sCollar said:
Well your last sentence, you stated that haven't been good, so you did say it.

In regards to this post.

Well he played over 20 league games that season. I know how important RVP was but Cleverley played a role that season and in my opinion, it was an important one, I think people forget just how important everyones role is.



This was my original point, you can't say he hasn't actually been good and then say he has been solid. Yes, he didn't develop into what we wanted but he has had a fine stint at United, whether that continues, who knows.
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My whole point was about the academy and players it has produced in the last 23 years , Cleverley and Evans have had seasons were they have been solid in certain games but overall they aren't really good players there is a difference between being solid in certain games and being good overall and that is my point, the absence of Fergie has exposed a lot of players especially Jonny Evans and Tom Cleverley.

If the only players you can use to oppose my arguments of the academy being overrated are Welbeck,Cleverley and Evans in the last 23 years then i can confidently say i am right, i truly believe O'shea and Brown have contributed more to United and have been key to our success over the course of their careers than Evans and Cleverley.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
I liked the diamond and its what I would play right now if I was manager (with some switches in personnel) but it's revisionism to suggest that the Leicester result alone was the reason LVG dropped it.

It wasn't until the West Brom game that we actually switched to a different formation. After Leicester we played the diamond twice more against West Ham and Everton and ended up scraping both games thanks to DDG putting in motm performances. It's harsh on LVG to suggest that he was spooked into changing his mind based on a single game.
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I'm actually not the biggest fan of the diamond - weighing up the performances during the season. You definitely right about the revisionism - I honestly couldnt remember when we stopped playing it and that it is harsh to suggest he was spooked by one game;the fan and media reaction didnt help but I cant help feel-in hindsight- that his lack of EPL experience has also played a factor in the way he probably regards that game. I'm an advocate for 3 CM by the way. I know we have injuries to consider but a combination of Carrick, Herrera, Blind, Fellaini and Di Maria really excites me.
 
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dxadel said:
If the only players you can use to oppose my arguments of the academy being overrated are Welbeck,Cleverley and Evans in the last 23 years then i can confidently say i am right, i truly believe O'shea and Brown have contributed more to United and have been key to our success over the course of their careers than Evans and Cleverley.
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Hang on, you listed those players, not me.

The point I made in regard to your post was that those 3 are good players. Hell they are professional footballers, they must be doing something better than you and me.

Far too often we label players as shit (not saying you have) because we compare them to expectations or the best players but fact is, like it or not, the average professional player is a good player. Not many make it in the game, these guys have so in my books, they are good players.
 
Rooney should of only been played as striker in his career.

He had all the attribuites to be world class as a number 9 but we wasted him by playing him on the wing, as a mid, as a number 10.
 
Cooksen said:
Rooney should of only been played as striker in his career.

He had all the attribuites to be world class as a number 9 but we wasted him by playing him on the wing, as a mid, as a number 10.
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He wasn't disciplined enough to be a striker and when he wasn't getting the ball enough he'd go looking for it, leaving a gap up front. That's the main reason why he has been used elsewhere.
 
Eric'sCollar said:
Hang on, you listed those players, not me.

The point I made in regard to your post was that those 3 are good players. Hell they are professional footballers, they must be doing something better than you and me.

Far too often we label players as shit (not saying you have) because we compare them to expectations or the best players but fact is, like it or not, the average professional player is a good player. Not many make it in the game, these guys have so in my books, they are good players.
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I listed a lot of players who have been labelled as the "the next best thing" and you singled out the most recent players ( welbeck,cleverly and evans), you called them good players which i don't have a problem with seeing as they could easily play for teams like QPR,West Brom and Aston Villa, but the whole context of my statement was about our academy which people give too much credit, i was only trying to point out that compared to the likes of Barcelona,Ajax,sporting etc. Our academy dwells on the class of 92 as an example of top talents it has produced which was 23 years ago, the likes of Barcelona,Ajax and sporting have produced talents like Messi,Figo,Ronaldo,De Jong,Kluivert,Vertonghen,Sneijder,Van der wiel, Xavi,Iniesta,Pedro,Thiago,Busquets,Simao,Quaresma,Moutinho etc - i really couldn't mention all the players those 3 teams alone have produced talk less of other teams like PSV,Porto,Real Madrid heck even southampton and West Ham have produced more talented players than us in the last decade.

The point about them being professional footballers over simplifies the whole argument - does it mean because an individual made it as a football player he is going to always be a good player? and should he not be criticised for his shit performances? The original players i mentioned were Spector,Richardson,Welbeck,Cleverley and Evans as players who have not lived up to expectations placed on them, the only reason i mentioned those players was because they have at least managed to earn premier league appearances - there are a host of other players who have graduated from our academy and gone on to play in the lower leagues for not even being good enough to earn a place in a premier league team - Luke Chadwick is a prime example.

With the amount of investment being put into our academy and its high reputation you would think that Welbeck,Cleverley and Evans would be the best of rest - but they are actually the last 3 players to make it into our first team from the academy, and it is safe to say that these 3 players aren't as good as any of the players i mentioned above from the other teams which to me spells failure.

P.S- I am not criticising the players, they are just mere examples i am criticising our academy and i think you are hell bent on defending those players that you are not seeing the bigger picture.
 
I agree that when you list some of the players from some of the other youth systems around the world like Barca and Ajax (which do get rated higher than that at United), it looks like we are lagging behind. However, in my opinion, credit should go to them for that and United shouldn't be criticised for not being as good. Yes, we should strive to have the best set up and success in the world but we still produce good players, even great players.

I know we have recruited from other clubs around the world into the youth system (and it's another debate on who really developed the player) but we could very well be sitting here with a world class Pogba and Januzaj ready to break onto the scene if things worked out differently than the immediate outlook would be different. If Morrison had half a brain, who knows what way he would have gone at United. While clubs like Barca do have a great system and success rate, they still spend big money if they need to, not many come through even at the best academies.

I don't have the figures on me but I would say we probably have just as many this season who have come through some stage of our youth system and played in our first team this season compared to Barca. Obviously quality of those players is an issue but we are producing players and there is quality coming through, so many factors determine the senior career though, especially at a big club.
 
Gopher Brown said:
He wasn't disciplined enough to be a striker and when he wasn't getting the ball enough he'd go looking for it, leaving a gap up front. That's the main reason why he has been used elsewhere.
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In fact I'd argue that Rooney was best to watch when he was playing behind Saha or RvP
 
MUFC > Everyone said:
Valencia puts in awful, predictable performances every week and occasionally has a good game because his trademark "kick it past the defender and run fast by him" or "kick the cross low and hard into the defenders feet" works once and he gets an assist. Even then I have no faith whatsoever when he gets the ball on the wing.

Falcao can leave.

edit MORE:

Non-United

-Pirlo is horrendously overrated
-Pogba leaving should not taint Sir Alex's legacy
-Messi is unarguably better than Ronaldo
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Don't think this is an unpopular opinion, or at least it shouldn't be - he's shite.
 
dxadel said:
I didn't say they aren't good players,but compared to the Class of 92 -(the group of players our academy bases it reputation on) they are somewhat of a disappointment, They are obviously not Messi or Ronaldo - i don't even think they should be in the same sentence as a Messi or Ronaldo - they shouldn't even be in the same sentence as a Rooney or Lampard. I am not taking away from their roles in helping the team win championships infact i honestly think Danny Welbeck's 1 goal in his only Premier League winning campaign (2012/13) out of 27 appearances was the most important goal of our season even more important than RVP's 26 goals and Rooney's 12 goals.

As for Cleverley - whose only premier league medal also came in the 2012/13 season (Hence, i fail to see what you meant by "role in championship winning sides"), he wasn't that much of a key player that season and failed to live up to the unfair Paul Scholes comparison, he did score a vital goal against villa and played well in some games but that 1 season where we had RVP single-handedly deliver the title to us doesn't cover up the fact that Tom Cleverley has been absolutely terrible in that centre mid position.

Jonny Evans is perhaps the only player amongst the trio you singled out to warrant some sort of adoration for his role in our defence over the years as he proved to be a solid player sometimes , but he has definitely been exposed this season and never actually became a top defender, you could argue that Ryan Shawcross is a much better defender than Jonny Evans.
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no point comparing anything to the 'class of 92' - every coach and Fergie have already stated that it was a once in a lifetime event for the players to come through together.

the reality is that we're lucky if we get one player who 'makes it' every couple of years

and absolutely no idea why you mentioned Jonathan Spector in the same sentence as the others!
 
golden_blunder said:
no point comparing anything to the 'class of 92' - every coach and Fergie have already stated that it was a once in a lifetime event for the players to come through together.

the reality is that we're lucky if we get one player who 'makes it' every couple of years

and absolutely no idea why you mentioned Jonathan Spector in the same sentence as the others!
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The class of 92 comparison was made as the reputation of the academy is based on those individuals whether you like it or not, every club has its golden generation which serves as a blueprint for the future generations this happened with Ajax,Barcelona and Manchester United in the 90s, these teams have gone on to try and duplicate the success by investing in their academies , In 2000 Louis Van Gaal was ridiculed for suggesting the UCL trophy could be won with 11 Home grown players , in 2009 Barcelona won the UCL with 8 home grown first team players - this is just an example of a successful execution of a long term investment in the academy, which is the type of investment Manchester United made in their own academy and we failed drastically.

There is no reality in 'getting one player who makes it every couple of years' that is just failure, an Academy is not like a lottery where it is 50/50 it is all about making a plan and executing it and not waiting for a player to just magically become good all of a sudden - which is what is being done in La Masia , there are a lot of players who have graduated from La Masia and done badly or not as good as the rest but it doesn't takeaway from the fact that there are a lot of successful stories. Manchester United on the other hand cannot boast of 5 top players anywhere in the world from their academy , infact the closest thing to a top notch player we have had is - Paul Pogba.

I mentioned Spector because he is actually part of a select few from our academy that actually made more than 30 premier league starts for a decent premier league team, perhaps i shouldn't have mentioned Spector - i should have mentioned our other illustrious exports - Joshua King , Robbie Brady,James Chester,Danny Simpson,Magnus Eikrem,Oliver Norwood or Hull City's very own Alex Bruce.
 
If Radamel Falcao, Angel Di Maria and Ander Herrera where at Liverpool nobody would be questioning fitness, fee's or performances.

Herrera would be running the show, Di Maria would be creating and chipping in and Falcao would be in double figures
 
luckyspurs said:
Smalling's played better in the last 18 months than Laporte.
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Id add Hummels to that as well. Certainly from what i have seen.

When you say 18 months, i'll say as a centre back. He's played alot at right back and our lass is a better full back than Smalling
 
jojose said:
If Radamel Falcao, Angel Di Maria and Ander Herrera where at Liverpool nobody would be questioning fitness, fee's or performances.

Herrera would be running the show, Di Maria would be creating and chipping in and Falcao would be in double figures
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Thats not going to be unpopular but I agree, I think Rodgers would get the best out of those players for sure. Pains me to say that.
 
jojose said:
The overrating of Hummels in here is baffling to say the least.
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Smalling better than Hummels over the last 18 months, don’t think you would get many if anyone outside United (and inside) agreeing with that.
 
Getsme said:
Smalling better than Hummels over the last 18 months, don’t think you would get many if anyone outside United (and inside) agreeing with that.
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And Evans was better than Smalling during the couples of seasons before this one, so by that logic he is/was better than Hummels.
 
JPRouve said:
And Evans was better than Smalling during the couples of seasons before this one, so by that logic he is/was better than Hummels.
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Our defence is fecking brilliant, don’t know what everyone is complaining about.
 
Rooney in Dublin said:
The refereeing in the PL is overall quite good.
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Agree. I'd add that referees not giving red cards and penalties unless sure and blatent, is better for football. Much prefer it decided from open play with even numbers a side.

Too many teams drawing or losing and blaming the referee for the defeat, because that minimal contact on Rooney, Coutinho or Lamela one time in a match. If you can't score 2 conceding 1, or fail to score, you deserve the loss of points. Penalties are a bonus, but them not being given doesn't mean you were robbed if you can't break a team down in the general run of play. Most teams in the Premier League could claim bad luck at referee's hands by that logic.
 
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The constant talk of us signing Bale is pissing me off, who is making up this BS. Bale doesn't even want to come here.
 
Azpilicueta is overrated and doesn't deserve the place in everyone's team of the season XIs. I think he is solid defensively and very quick so difficult to beat 1v1. Though he has been at fault for a fair few goals already this season. And I would go as far as saying he is poor on the ball. Poor first touch and passing questionable. Though I do appreciate he is a right footed player playing on the left. He stood out like a sore thumb in the Spain team in the summer, was the only one not comfortable on the ball.
 
DanNistelrooy said:
Azpilicueta is overrated and doesn't deserve the place in everyone's team of the season XIs. I think he is solid defensively and very quick so difficult to beat 1v1. Though he has been at fault for a fair few goals already this season. And I would go as far as saying he is poor on the ball. Poor first touch and passing questionable. Though I do appreciate he is a right footed player playing on the left. He stood out like a sore thumb in the Spain team in the summer, was the only one not comfortable on the ball.
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I agree with overrated. I would still say he's played better than any left back in the league this season. Only Clyne really has him significantly beaten at full back, on this year's form.

I personally think Zabaleta's attacking play lets him off a load of poor defending. He'd be criticised so much if he wasn't such a likable and energetic force overlapping and creating goals.

A few others.

  • Gotze is better than Muller week in week out.
  • Alaba and Varane are the only two defenders in world football worth more than £30m.
  • Allegri and Mazzarri are really good managers.
 
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Hummels is overrated and overpriced. Great on the ball, and would look great in games we control, but he'd struggle in the nitty gritty PL games and ultimately wouldn't solve our defensive issues.
 
dxadel said:
The class of 92 comparison was made as the reputation of the academy is based on those individuals whether you like it or not, every club has its golden generation which serves as a blueprint for the future generations this happened with Ajax,Barcelona and Manchester United in the 90s, these teams have gone on to try and duplicate the success by investing in their academies , In 2000 Louis Van Gaal was ridiculed for suggesting the UCL trophy could be won with 11 Home grown players , in 2009 Barcelona won the UCL with 8 home grown first team players - this is just an example of a successful execution of a long term investment in the academy, which is the type of investment Manchester United made in their own academy and we failed drastically.

There is no reality in 'getting one player who makes it every couple of years' that is just failure, an Academy is not like a lottery where it is 50/50 it is all about making a plan and executing it and not waiting for a player to just magically become good all of a sudden - which is what is being done in La Masia , there are a lot of players who have graduated from La Masia and done badly or not as good as the rest but it doesn't takeaway from the fact that there are a lot of successful stories. Manchester United on the other hand cannot boast of 5 top players anywhere in the world from their academy , infact the closest thing to a top notch player we have had is - Paul Pogba.

I mentioned Spector because he is actually part of a select few from our academy that actually made more than 30 premier league starts for a decent premier league team, perhaps i shouldn't have mentioned Spector - i should have mentioned our other illustrious exports - Joshua King , Robbie Brady,James Chester,Danny Simpson,Magnus Eikrem,Oliver Norwood or Hull City's very own Alex Bruce.
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You expect too much, you will be constantly disappointed.

There are numerous players who came through the ranks and performed at the highest levels; Whiteside, Hughes, Giggs, O'Shea, etc. all players who weren't the class of 92. It's not the norm for 4 or 5 players to go all the way through the ranks together.

You need to think that the academy is also a business, we give them an education and set them in their way
 
golden_blunder said:
You expect too much, you will be constantly disappointed.

There are numerous players who came through the ranks and performed at the highest levels; Whiteside, Hughes, Giggs, O'Shea, etc. all players who weren't the class of 92. It's not the norm for 4 or 5 players to go all the way through the ranks together.

You need to think that the academy is also a business, we give them an education and set them in their way
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Our academy since the class of 92 has certainly become very overrated though, he's got a decent point there. When's the last time we brought through a genuine top class talent? In the past decade, the best player I can think of is probably Fletcher, who has been very good for us at times and was an excellent player to have in his prime, but who still falls short of that world class level.

Compare to the likes of Barca, who have produced Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Busquets, Valdes, Pedro and more. Then there's Bayern with the likes of Schweinsteiger, Lahm and Muller.

Even Real Madrid, who we often call big money mercenaries (which they are, to be fair), have managed to produce some top class talent in Casillas, Ramos and Raul.

No one is expecting us to be constantly producing top quality players every single year, but it'd be nice to see us produce one or two who can go on to become top players for us.
 
@Cheesy It's the same for all academies except maybe Real Madrid.

We already talked about it but between Babbel and Schweinsteiger there is 13 years. Puyol wasn't great at a young age, he wasn't rated by the coaches and it's only the director of La Masia who rated him, Puyol created his own destiny.
The Barcelona generation that you are mentioning is their 92 class.

Madrid are a great player factory and are the only one who consistently produce genuinely good players.
 
golden_blunder said:
You expect too much, you will be constantly disappointed.

There are numerous players who came through the ranks and performed at the highest levels; Whiteside, Hughes, Giggs, O'Shea, etc. all players who weren't the class of 92. It's not the norm for 4 or 5 players to go all the way through the ranks together.

You need to think that the academy is also a business, we give them an education and set them in their way
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Its not a case of expecting too much, personally i prefer the Chelsea and City way of signing players - signing already made talent it is more efficient in the short term, but that doesn't mean i shouldn't criticise the products of our academy .


I am afraid you have unfortunately missed the point i was trying to make , perhaps you should have read my first comment on this thread about this issue, i was referring to the reputation gotten from the class of 92, and how we are supposed to have one of the best academies in the world and yet we keep producing players that aren't top-notch, my argument is from 1992 onwards - so Whiteside,Hughes and Giggs don't count, as for O'shea it only adds to my point that we haven't really produced a top-notch player despite investments. Using the class of 92 as an example doesn't actually mean i expect 5 players to come through the ranks together, i just expect at least 1 player who is as skilled as one of the members of the Class of 92 to have graduated into the first team in the last 23 years - which shouldn't be too hard for one of the best youth academies in the world.

I don't actually understand what you mean by it being a business, because my idea of a business is something that you profit from - which in that case we seemed to have failed because we haven't actually gained profit from selling academy players per say, Welbeck being the most expensive export at 16million and losing Paul Pogba for next to nothing.

Perhaps i am the only one who sees a problem in our academy producing above average players for the last 23 years with no star or consistent 1st team player, hence making this comment in an Unpopular Opinions thread.
 
And Ajax surpasses them all, Ramos isnt from Real btw.
JPRouve said:
@Cheesy It's the same for all academies except maybe Real Madrid.

We already talked about it but between Babbel and Schweinsteiger there is 13 years. Puyol wasn't great at a young age, he wasn't rated by the coaches and it's only the director of La Masia who rated him, Puyol created his own destiny.
The Barcelona generation that you are mentioning is their 92 class.

Madrid are a great player factory and are the only one who consistently produce genuinely good players.
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Brophs said:
Lots of top players are systematically doping.

I think Di Maria will look to leave within a season or two.
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I hope he leaves, might be unfair to say but we didn't actually need a player like him , we needed a goalscoring midfield attacker and he doesn't seem to change games - we just signed him to assure ourselves that we were still in the big leagues and we could attract a superstar albeit the wrong superstar
 
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