I'm still watching for that hat-trick you said he'd score on Monday
Unpopular Opinions Thread
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I never 100% wanted him but he did have an excellent season and relations with SAF and Rooney were looking awkward so it was clearly understandable. Revisionism here, but we really should have opted for Lewandowski instead. Perhaps his trajectory wouldn't have been in the same manner as it has been, but we were strongly linked and he was at a very good age to pick up a striker to have for the next 7-8 years.
Absolutely. If it was an option, we should have been all over it.
Both for counters and possession play, he'd have fitted in perfectly with the players we had plus Kagawa.
van Persie scored goals, but I feel it almost came at the cost of the cohesion we were developing. We had no problem scoring before he came, and had we added a striker who fitted in better, I think we'd have won just as many games that season, but playing better/ more balanced football.
And we'd be better for it today.
Hard to see how we would have won that 20th league title without Van Persie.
and to counter the argument that people will put forward about buying RVP hindering the development of younger players (ie Welbeck)... I'd suggest that Fergie was looking towards a front line of RVP and Welbeck once he'd shunted Rooney out the door. And I'd have been fine with that.
I don't buy that. We didn't struggle to score goals the season before he came.
I almost feel that with Van Persie it was more the fact that he wasn't playing for City that won us the league.
This is the problem. He was brilliant that he papered over the cracks in the rest of the team. Even he is human and cannot sustain that form over extended years, and the cracks came back to the fore a season later. I think if we had invested in midfield by then instead of RvP, we would have been much better off today.
I think it's that more than anything. Fair enough in that regard.
But in terms of our own team - we didn't need his added goal tally to win the league, and I think playing him made us a less cohesive, less balanced team. He often bailed us out, but would we have needed so much bailing out if we'd brought in a different player (maybe in a different position, or a different striker)?
We may have been able to control the Southampton away game better, for example. And then not needed a hat-trick to save us.
I remember when City were strongly linked to RVP in his final season at Arsenal, the general consensus on here was that if they got him, they'd absolutely piss the league. As it was, we got him, and we pissed the league.
I strongly believe if City had got him, they'd have won the past 3 titles. People are forgetting just how good he was in our first season for us, which is a shame.
I strongly believe if City had got him, they'd have won the past 3 titles. People are forgetting just how good he was in our first season for us, which is a shame.
I think his influence on the 20th is a bit overstated. Carrick was brilliant that season, carrying a whole midfield four on his own (our wingers were hideous) and we did have a bit of a 'wall' defensively. Rafael put his best season ever, and from January onward, Evans and Ferdinand were excellent. van Persie had a ten game barren spell, ten! It's not like he did everything, there were many other elements.
Jeeez, talk about revision at its finest.
No chance.
The "van Persie carried us through hell and back" is revisionism.No chance.
If Van Persie goes to City that Summer, not us, they win the league.
Probably true but so is everything he said.
That doesn't mean he carried us to the title. In fact, it's meaningless in this conversation.
The Irish folk on the caf are tremendously biased in favour of Coleman and make him out to be better than he is.
I never said he did.
He was superb. No denying that.
And I guess you could say that just stopping him joining City made it worth the money. He'd almost certainly have made them even more lethal.
But, with the right signings, I don't see why we couldn't have risen to the challenge and been even better than them.
We could still have won it, and won it playing a better brand of more sustainable football.
He came and did what he was bought for, and it denied City, but I still think we may have been better off (from that season up until now) without signing him.
If you said McCarthy I would agree. By PL standards I think Coleman is a very good player.
I don't see how RVP prevented us playing good football. Our football had been stale for years, while RVP was playing in an Arsenal team that played the best football in the league. The issues run far deeper then that.
How so? None of us are saying he's the best RB in the league or anything like that, some of us just think he's better than Rafael.
Never said he is a poor player. But the bias towards him is mind numbing at times. Like people claiming that he was as good as Rafael is now, 2 years back itself. That is ao plain stupid especially considering that Rafael was considered as potentially as good as or even better than zabaleta that season.
See my post above.
We weren't great at the time, but I think we were showing signs of playing something good and exciting. Welbeck and Rooney had a decent understanding, which was growing. And Kagawa would have complemented them perfectly.
Three players (Welbeck and Kagawa especially) who like to get close and play with lots of movement, stretch teams, play first-touch. Capable of countering at pace. Whereas van Persie doesn't/didn't fit that.
Arsenal's football suited van Persie more.
Just signing van Persie and Kagawa made little sense to me.
We were effectively signing a match-winner at the cost of proper cohesion. It appeared we weren't as bothered about playing a certain way or outplaying teams that season - just winning. And the fact that he'd have gone to City instead was partly why we bought him.
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Darron Gibson wasn't really that bad. Fellaini can be an important player for us to make the top four. Micheal Carrick is good but very over-rated on these forums.
EDIT: I'm a bit weird when it comes to midfielders I suppose.
EDIT: I'm a bit weird when it comes to midfielders I suppose.
We played some good football during Fergie's last season.
Balotelli is brilliant, absolutely top class - he's wasted at Liverpool
lol jokes
lol jokes
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It's incredible really. Yes he's been subpar the last two seasons (including this one,) but he was unreal in Fergie's last season. I buy the argument that buying him possibly had a negative effect on our long-term future; I don't buy at all that we would have won the league without him in 2011-2 (just like we wouldn't have won without RVN in 2002-3, nor Ronaldo in 2007-8.)
RVP wasn't a good signing for the long term, but I highly doubt we would have won the league without Van Persie. After that seaosn at Arsenal, he was one of the very best centre forwards in the world, if not the best. He was scoring goals from nothing for us, and I don't think Rooney or Welbeck would have scored some of those. It was Van Persie's swinging left footed free kick against City that won us the game. That was the game that really let us pull away from them. He had that outrageous run from November until the end of January where he scored in every game. His "barren run" is overstated, as it was only 5 league games. It also seems to be easily forgotten that he racked up 15 assists in the Premier League that season. His delivery from corners was the best we had seen from a United player in a long, long time. It contributed to a lot of goals. Evans and Evra nodded in a number of his deliveries. 15 assists for a centre forward is incredible. The best playmakers in the league would be happy with that tally.
Carrick and Rafael had excellent seasons too, but RVP was colossal. He played all 38 league games whilst Rooney and Welbeck were in and out with injury. After an injury ravaged 11/12, we really needed that consistency. I really can't see that title win being possible without him.
Carrick and Rafael had excellent seasons too, but RVP was colossal. He played all 38 league games whilst Rooney and Welbeck were in and out with injury. After an injury ravaged 11/12, we really needed that consistency. I really can't see that title win being possible without him.
1) Fergie's consistent ignoring of our midfield: The last few seasons have seen a consistent tinkering and shuffling of our lineup. No regular starting places in midfield apart from Carrick (who himself was on and off form-wise). Inordinate time wasted in getting rid of Nani and Anderson. They were not playing regularly yet not replaced.
2) Fergie vs Rooney: It would have never been a contest. Rooney would have been out that season and RvP would have replaced him. Probably that was Fergie's plan which never got fulfilled.
2) Strategy transition: My belief was that Fergie wanted to move away from 4-4-2 and play a more attacking free flowing football. So Kagawa. Again Fergie's plan which never got fulfilled.
3) Retirement and transition nightmanre: Fergie's retirement (both earlier and current) must have been one of the best examples of mismanagement by the club. Rather than learning from previous experiance, we chose to combine that significant event with a CEO change which enhanced the disturbance multifold. Total chaos resulting in a horribly botched crucial transfer window.
4) Fergie to Moyes: In hindsight, I can see a massive communication gap on ongoing strategy in the transition. Moyes tried to make a impact retaining Rooney negating point 1 above. This complicated by the big time fan placating signing of Mata with no view on how he fits in with Kagawa with the central midfield problem crucially ignored again.
I would say we are where we are because...
- Midfield was let unattended by Fergie. This was plastered over by RvP's brilliance.
- Mismanaged transition to Moyes who complicated by situation by bad transfer windows.
2) Fergie vs Rooney: It would have never been a contest. Rooney would have been out that season and RvP would have replaced him. Probably that was Fergie's plan which never got fulfilled.
2) Strategy transition: My belief was that Fergie wanted to move away from 4-4-2 and play a more attacking free flowing football. So Kagawa. Again Fergie's plan which never got fulfilled.
3) Retirement and transition nightmanre: Fergie's retirement (both earlier and current) must have been one of the best examples of mismanagement by the club. Rather than learning from previous experiance, we chose to combine that significant event with a CEO change which enhanced the disturbance multifold. Total chaos resulting in a horribly botched crucial transfer window.
4) Fergie to Moyes: In hindsight, I can see a massive communication gap on ongoing strategy in the transition. Moyes tried to make a impact retaining Rooney negating point 1 above. This complicated by the big time fan placating signing of Mata with no view on how he fits in with Kagawa with the central midfield problem crucially ignored again.
I would say we are where we are because...
- Midfield was let unattended by Fergie. This was plastered over by RvP's brilliance.
- Mismanaged transition to Moyes who complicated by situation by bad transfer windows.
He got nine assists.
I don't think it's really Liverpool that's the problem, but Balotelli himself. I agree he's talented, and he's got the assets to be a top striker, but his mentality is awful and doesn't look to be getting any better. I thought he'd perhaps mature and improve as he ages, but that doesn't seem to be the case. He's still selfish and unreliable, which any club aspiring for top 4 or more can't have, unless the player is ridiculously good. He has talent in there, but I don't think any club right now would be really capable of getting him to utilise it fully.
I haven't seen too many people say that, TBH. The main comparison between them that I've seen is Coleman last year versus Rafael two years ago. Which is a pretty fair comparison, IMO.
His fellow players voted him the best RB in the league last season, in which he scored more goals than Rafael has managed in his entire career. On that basis it's fair to argue that he is currently a better attacking fullback than Rafael. That has nothing to do with posters being Irish, it's a balanced and reasonable argument that a lot (and likely most) PL fans would probably agree with.
If people were claiming that Coleman was miles better than Rafael and one of the best in Europe then you'd have a point. Saying he's one of the best in the league is hardly going over the top though.
Well if you're one of the best in the PL then wouldn't you be one of the best in Europe? It's not like the Bundesliga, La Liga etc. are riddled with world class RBs.
If you're talking about the best in Europe then surely you have to give extra weight to players who've actually performed in the CL though? He might look as good as them based on his PL form but until he moves to a CL club there'll always been a question mark over whether he can do it for/against the best teams.
You should read the Coleman thread. People are claiming things like it's not even a comparison and he is way better than Rafael. IMO there is nothing to choose between them at this stage although it can be argued that since Coleman has not had to actually play midweek matches more and has not had the opportunity to ply his trade in the CL, it cannot be said how he would then perform. People are claiming things as ridiculous as Coleman being so far ahead of Rafael that the Coleman of 2 years back had already reached the standards which Rafael has set. That is an insanely biased statement to make especially considering Rafael was arguably the best RB in the league 2 seasons back.
Luke Shaw is past it.
Transfermarkt says 15 in the Premier League.
Spurs H, Newcastle A, Stoke H, Chelsea A, Aston Villa A, Sunderland H, Swansea A, Newcastle H, Wigan A, Everton H, QPR A, Norwich H, Sunderland A, x2 Swansea H.
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