United under LvG: verdict so far!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Pexbo said:
Beginning to share the same faith as me?
Click to expand...

No, never. I don't do blind faiths.

I am thrilled with the last two performances and would be relieved if we managed to finish in the top 4 at the end of the season. But that is the bare minimum. I hate the fact that expectations have dropped so far at United that top 4 would be considered an achievement. I refuse to become an Arsenal fan, and would not judge a manager on the Wenger scale.

I still have my doubts about him. I would consider his tenure a success when he manages to stabilize the club and has us back in the top bracket of European clubs again.
 
Insanity said:
No, never. I don't do blind faiths.

I am thrilled with the last two performances and would be relieved if we managed to finish in the top 4 at the end of the season. But that is the bare minimum. I hate the fact that expectations have dropped so far at United that top 4 would be considered an achievement. I refuse to become an Arsenal fan, and would not judge a manager on the Wenger scale.

I still have my doubts about him. I would consider his tenure a success when he manages to stabilize the club and has us back in the top bracket of European clubs again.
Click to expand...
Top four is only an achievement for this season given where you were last season. Expecting united to challenge for the title having finished seventh last season is a bit of a stretch. Next season top three would have to be the minimum expectation probably even top two.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
Top four is only an achievement for this season given where you were last season. Expecting united to challenge for the title having finished seventh last season is a bit of a stretch. Next season top three would have to be the minimum expectation probably even top two.
Click to expand...

Didn't expect a title challenge, but also didn't expect us to look so dire for most of the season. Some of VG's decision have been mystifying. A case can be made that his hands were forced into the current formation and playing players in their right positions due to injuries and suspensions.

Next season I expect us to break out from his top 4 challenger bracket to the title challenger bracket.
 
MDFC Manager said:
It's not that clear cut a distinction. Rooney did none of that on Sunday. When fit, RvP provides plenty of aggression and movement as well. I'll concede that Rooney has better pace and acceleration but RvP has his uses as well, providing far better hold up play.
Click to expand...
The difference is I haven't this season seen RVP once take the ball and turn facing the goal. Rooney has and therefore he has my vote.
 
I will say this, I am very happy after the last few games.

One of the best bits of news I heard was that LVG actually went to the players and sorted out this formation. He asked if they wanted a 3-5-2 or a 4-3-3 and he took the players suggestion to go with the 4-3-3. This is refreshing to me as it flys if the face of the arrogant dictatotorial persona LVG has been made out to be. And because of his willingness to try something different after so many poor games we see what can be.

Yes I still think it took a bit long to get here, but now I feel very comfortable that all in that locker room are on board and I hope to see far less questionable player selections and odd tactical adjustments.
 
I have much more faith for him now. Long way to go but he's finally learning on his mistakes, and we’ve played the best football for years on Anfield. Those fixtures are usually very tense, but we managed to hold our shape, dealt well with their pressing and even pressed them! Encouraging.

Obviously there are worries about RvP coming back straight into line-up but he picked the same XI in two games agains our biggest rivals for top 4 place so I hope it means we’re playing like he wanted to.
 
Sultan said:
Rooney provides a lot of energy and movement off the ball taking defenders out of their comfort zones. Something RvP and Falcao failed to do when played.
Click to expand...
It's true Rooney is more dynamic, but I still think van Persie could play well in this system with his skill set.
You might want to consider getting someone like Di Maria in as well with his dynamism, but it's hard to point to anyone you would want to drop.
 
MDFC Manager said:
It's not that clear cut a distinction. Rooney did none of that on Sunday. When fit, RvP provides plenty of aggression and movement as well. I'll concede that Rooney has better pace and acceleration but RvP has his uses as well, providing far better hold up play.
Click to expand...

Van Persie's movement and hold up play used to be great but has been crap for most of this season (and last) so that's a bit of a moot point.

The real problem with RvP coming back is what to do with Rooney. Changing formation and/or dropping the likes of Fellaini or Hererra could ruin this recent resurgence. Which would be a crying shame.
 
Last edited:
He's won me over in these last few games. Opposite to Moyes, under whom we turned much worse when it mattered and never got it right on big occasions (Olympiakos game aside where we were bailed out by van Persie odd spark of genius) we have managed to look fantastic in two consecutive games against two good teams. If he doesn't mess around with the team too much in the final 8 games of season we'll make top 4 and could possibly even finish as high as 2nd which would be great achievement after last season's disaster.

I just hope we don't go back to playing van Persie in every single game once he's fit, and he doesn't change the way our midfield sets up at the minute. If he moves Rooney back into midifeld and puts van Persie up front when he's back then we'll very likely go back to our shape from earlier stages of season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Van Persie's movement and hold up play used to be great but has been crap for most of this season (and last) so that's a bit of a moot point.

The real problem with RvP coming back is what to do with Rooney. Changing formation and/or dropping the likes of Fellaini or Hererra could ruin this recent resurgence. Which would be a crying shame.
Click to expand...
Just put him on the bench and use him as an impact player, putting him in the starting line up cannot be justified right now. He wasn't good before the injury, he's not had a good season at all and we've looked much better without him in the team. I know the relationship between him and van Gaal is very strong but van Gaal really does need to look past it and prove that he can make difficult decisions when it comes to picking/not picking his favourites. I certainly wouldn't change the way our midfield sets up or plays, maybe bring Di Maria in there if he can regain some sort of form but in his current form he doesn't deserve to start games either. And I cannot really use wrong position argument anymore, he lacks basic instincts at the minute.
 
Sarni said:
Just put him on the bench and use him as an impact player, putting him in the starting line up cannot be justified right now. He wasn't good before the injury, he's not had a good season at all and we've looked much better without him in the team. I know the relationship between him and van Gaal is very strong but van Gaal really does need to look past it and prove that he can make difficult decisions when it comes to picking/not picking his favourites. I certainly wouldn't change the way our midfield sets up or plays, maybe bring Di Maria in there if he can regain some sort of form but in his current form he doesn't deserve to start games either. And I cannot really use wrong position argument anymore, he lacks basic instincts at the minute.
Click to expand...

Yup. Agree with all of that.
 
I think he found his formation and hopefully starting eleven. I hope he wont tinker too much with it, I'm sure he wont to be exact. Only changes could be Shaw instead of Blind maybe, although Blind has been good and ADM instead of Young although I'm sure LVG sees ADM is out of form and doesnt like his decision making very much.

Is RVP fit? Being fit or not he shouldnt be nowhere near our starting 11. He can be on the bench of course but no reason to move him into the lineup and shift other players.
 
Sarni said:
Just put him on the bench and use him as an impact player, putting him in the starting line up cannot be justified right now. He wasn't good before the injury, he's not had a good season at all and we've looked much better without him in the team. I know the relationship between him and van Gaal is very strong but van Gaal really does need to look past it and prove that he can make difficult decisions when it comes to picking/not picking his favourites. I certainly wouldn't change the way our midfield sets up or plays, maybe bring Di Maria in there if he can regain some sort of form but in his current form he doesn't deserve to start games either. And I cannot really use wrong position argument anymore, he lacks basic instincts at the minute.
Click to expand...

^ This...

Here is the real deal, by anyones standards Rooney did not have a great game yesterday. But watch this video esp around 4:42 mark where we see all the work Rooney put in that goes unnoticed most of the time. But because he was willing to do that work, even when his "A" game was missing, allowed us as a team to impose our will for the first 30 mins...

http://www.lfc.vn/motd1/motd-liverpool-man-utd-s15-w30/2/

And yeah I know it is a Pool site, sorry about that ;).
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Van Persie's movement and hold up play used to be great but has been crap for most of this season (and last) so that's a bit of a moot point.

The real problem with RvP coming back is what to do with Rooney. Changing formation and/or dropping the likes of Fellaini or Hererra could ruin this recent resurgence. Which would be a crying shame.
Click to expand...
I think he's been alright at holding up the ball. The problem, for me, is that earlier in the season he didn't have anyone readily available to play it to. Currently our players seem to have loads of passing options most of the time. I've been criticising van Persie for taking way too many touches this season. I think he would take fewer now, but you obviously never know.
I'm not advocating dropping Rooney (or anyone else for that matter) by the way.
 
I'd have liked RVP, Falcao and Wilson to play in this tactic, up top by themselves. The fact they've not had that chance is one reason they have failed this season. Especially Falcao.
 
Listar said:
The difference is I haven't this season seen RVP once take the ball and turn facing the goal. Rooney has and therefore he has my vote.
Click to expand...

Pogue Mahone said:
Van Persie's movement and hold up play used to be great but has been crap for most of this season (and last) so that's a bit of a moot point.

The real problem with RvP coming back is what to do with Rooney. Changing formation and/or dropping the likes of Fellaini or Hererra could ruin this recent resurgence. Which would be a crying shame.
Click to expand...
I know he's been poor and I know he shouldn't be brought straight back in. However, his skill set is very different from Rooney's. They have different uses and I'd fully back the manager if he uses a horses for courses strategy. That's my point.
 
Maagge said:
I think he's been alright at holding up the ball. The problem, for me, is that earlier in the season he didn't have anyone readily available to play it to. Currently our players seem to have loads of passing options most of the time. I've been criticising van Persie for taking way too many touches this season. I think he would take fewer now, but you obviously never know.
Click to expand...
No, but if you asked before the season we're gonna play fast posession based 4-3-3 with lots of triangular movement and one touch football, who should fit in? Van Persie would be first name on my list. In the learning process with too slow football, hesistant moving and passing and a strikers partnership with a small striker with a poor first touch, who's gonna suffer most? Again Van Persie would be the first on my list.

I think it's highly unlikely RVP is the source of the problem, allthough he's been in poor form a lot of games. Not as poor as some say, but only up to his high standards in a few games and not near in most others. I'm not saying he should be in the starting eleven the moment he's fit, but it seems only logical to work towards a starting eleven with an in form RVP.


I'm not advocating dropping Rooney (or anyone else for that matter) by the way.
Click to expand...
I don't think striker in 4-3-3 is his best position, he should make runs into and near the box, not standing in or near it. He's a '10' in 4-3-3 or a 'second' striker behind the most forward player in 4-4-2.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Van Persie's movement and hold up play used to be great but has been crap for most of this season (and last) so that's a bit of a moot point.

The real problem with RvP coming back is what to do with Rooney. Changing formation and/or dropping the likes of Fellaini or Hererra could ruin this recent resurgence. Which would be a crying shame.
Click to expand...

That scares me. I really hope we don't go back to that formation again. I can't believe we actually played RVP and Falcao with Rooney in the midfield. That's the kind of tactic you'd expect to see in the final 5 minutes. Smh.
 
I think that's fair, I think people are probably writing RVP off a bit too quickly, I wouldnt be putting him back in the team, especially not if it means Rooney gets pushed back and all sorts of resulting disruption. But I wouldnt be at all surprised for him to force the issue with a sub appearance and give us something to think about. The guy is quality and I dont buy that he is past it. I know it has been a couple of years since he was really at the top of his game, so what Im about to say doesnt make a lot of sense on the face of it. But somehow it all feels a bit too sudden for it to be about him being old and past it. Like, SAF leaves and suddenly his injuries come back and his body gives up and he is finished? It doesnt add up.

I think he can be a quality back up for Rooney if he is happy to play that role. But he has to prove that. Hopefully he will in the remaining weeks of this season - grab a couple of important goals from the bench, turn a couple of games in our favour, perhaps get a couple of starts where he and the team plays well, jobs a goodun.
 
Adebesi said:
I think that's fair, I think people are probably writing RVP off a bit too quickly, I wouldnt be putting him back in the team, especially not if it means Rooney gets pushed back and all sorts of resulting disruption. But I wouldnt be at all surprised for him to force the issue with a sub appearance and give us something to think about. The guy is quality and I dont buy that he is past it. I know it has been a couple of years since he was really at the top of his game, so what Im about to say doesnt make a lot of sense on the face of it. But somehow it all feels a bit too sudden for it to be about him being old and past it. Like, SAF leaves and suddenly his injuries come back and his body gives up and he is finished? It doesnt add up.

I think he can be a quality back up for Rooney if he is happy to play that role. But he has to prove that. Hopefully he will in the remaining weeks of this season - grab a couple of important goals from the bench, turn a couple of games in our favour, perhaps get a couple of starts where he and the team plays well, jobs a goodun.
Click to expand...

And if he does the opposite and looks like he has done all season would you be of the opinion he certainly had his chance, failed to take them for whatever reason and if an oppotunity does come up to sell him and replace we should? Who knows he may be a great sweetener for a player from Real Madrid.
 
RedorDead21 said:
And if he does the opposite and looks like he has done all season would you be of the opinion he certainly had his chance, failed to take them for whatever reason and if an oppotunity does come up to sell him and replace we should? Who knows he may be a great sweetener for a player from Real Madrid.
Click to expand...
Yes. If he doesnt pull his finger out for the remainder of the season and an attractive offer came in for him then Id certainly advocate taking it and freshening things up with a new striker. I cant imagine we'll get a very interesting offer for him though, I mean if we have concluded he is over the hill and not up to it anymore, why on earth would Real Madrid be interested?
 
Adebesi said:
Yes. If he doesnt pull his finger out for the remainder of the season and an attractive offer came in for him then Id certainly advocate taking it and freshening things up with a new striker. I cant imagine we'll get a very interesting offer for him though, I mean if we have concluded he is over the hill and not up to it anymore, why on earth would Real Madrid be interested?
Click to expand...

Well they took hernandez just as a bencher to change things up. I imagine they will be letting him go. I think they may be happy to replace him with RVP. The chances they create are often on a plate I dont think the pressure to create and score his own goals would be there like it is with our team.
 
RedorDead21 said:
Well they took hernandez just as a bencher to change things up. I imagine they will be letting him go. I think they may be happy to replace him with RVP. The chances they create are often on a plate I dont think the pressure to create and score his own goals would be there like it is with our team.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that to be fair, they are at opposite ends of their careers, they took a cheap punt on Chicharito because he is young enough that he has improvement ahead of him. But I guess time will tell.
 
Adebesi said:
I seriously doubt that to be fair, they are at opposite ends of their careers, they took a cheap punt on Chicharito because he is young enough that he has improvement ahead of him. But I guess time will tell.
Click to expand...

your probably right. If not Real I can only see a possible move back to Arsenal and could they afford the wages.
 
redevil2 said:
No he hadn't been the best in the 'Pool game. But to make sure I am the most biased person around, I would suggest that his presence in the last two games did bring alot more confidence to the side. We were a total different team from the Arsenal game for example. Remember how Herrera described Carrick: He did not say much but when he did you listen. I believe his leadership had played a major part and his return after two months out to the Spurs game anyone could see how he was the talisman.

Ander: "Carrick's very serious, but suits another quote by Bielsa: Leaders don't need to speak much, but you listen to them when they speak
Click to expand...
Obviously Carrick has had an impact on the team as he also did when he came back into the team earlier in the season but its strange that you keep bringing up the Arsenal game and say "If we had Carrick back for the Arsenal game, do you think we would have exited so easily?" considering we played considerably better in the first half of the Arsenal game before Carrick came on. You seem to be completely forgetting that he actually played against Arsenal since you also said "how come Carrick only took 9 mins on the pitch to stamp his authority after two months out! Credit where its due, will you"
 
I think the interview with Herrera recently is quite telling; LVG getting on to him about chasing the ball. Its surely difficult for most players to ignore their natural instincts but maybe we're starting to see more of the team fully understanding the requirements and limitations of their specific role in the team.
 
Sultan said:
Rooney provides a lot of energy and movement off the ball taking defenders out of their comfort zones. Something RvP and Falcao failed to do when played.
Click to expand...
RVP is a better #9 then Rooney in terms of clever runs and holding up play. Rooney is better playing deeper but I wouldn't go as far and say his our best #10 in terms of technical ability.
 
GBBQ said:
I think the interview with Herrera recently is quite telling; LVG getting on to him about chasing the ball. Its surely difficult for most players to ignore their natural instincts but maybe we're starting to see more of the team fully understanding the requirements and limitations of their specific role in the team.
Click to expand...
Yeah it could just be position specific requirements. I doubt he'd shackle players playing in the creative/attacking positions.
 
jb8521 said:
Obviously Carrick has had an impact on the team as he also did when he came back into the team earlier in the season but its strange that you keep bringing up the Arsenal game and say "If we had Carrick back for the Arsenal game, do you think we would have exited so easily?" considering we played considerably better in the first half of the Arsenal game before Carrick came on. You seem to be completely forgetting that he actually played against Arsenal since you also said "how come Carrick only took 9 mins on the pitch to stamp his authority after two months out! Credit where its due, will you"
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reminder. Ive learned so much in this forum.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Yeah it could just be position specific requirements. I doubt he'd shackle players playing in the creative/attacking positions.
Click to expand...

Then you don't understand how he's trying to get us to play (or, indeed, how his Barcelona or Bayern played). Position is everything - just look at the little triangles Herrera, Mata and Valencia were able to play when Herrera held position and didn't wander off looking for the ball. A lot of posters didn't understand why LvG seemed to prefer Fellaini to Herrera - it comes down to him having to learn to play within the system, which is obviously not as easy as many of us thought. (As an aside, I remember Bobby Charlton saying that he was already a seasoned England international before the coin finally dropped and he stopped following the ball around. It's not an easy impulse to overcome.)
 
redevil2 said:
Thanks for the reminder. Ive learned so much in this forum.
Click to expand...
You call someone else too juvenile to discuss things then reply with this. What you said is blatantly wrong no need to get an attitude. Next time I wont bother with the civility or giving you the benefit of the doubt and will just call you a fecking idiot which your posts deserve and move on
 
jb8521 said:
You call someone else too juvenile to discuss things then reply with this. What you said is blatantly wrong no need to get an attitude. Next time I wont bother with the civility or giving you the benefit of the doubt and will just call you a fecking idiot which your posts deserve and move on
Click to expand...
I apologise if my post sounds false! I forgot things (and you pointed out to me to correct me, hence I remember!). Since you're the more civilised one I responded with what I thought without arguing! Sorry if it didn't come across well. I was in a hurry when posting. I did learn! Tks
 
Will Singh said:
RVP is a better #9 then Rooney in terms of clever runs and holding up play. Rooney is better playing deeper but I wouldn't go as far and say his our best #10 in terms of technical ability.
Click to expand...

He edges Fellaini in terms of technical ability. Thats about it.
 
Maagge said:
A lot of people are going on about what's going to happen when van Persie gets back. I might be a tad optimistic but I've allowed myself to believe he's going to play well if the rest of the team's playing as they have the last to games.
It's not like Rooney was actually good yesterday.
Click to expand...
The worst thing to happen would be to move Rooney back into midfield, or move Fellani further back. Neither of them have the ability to play in midfield to the level of ADM, Mata, Herrera, Carrick or even Blind.

If RVP is back, and realizes he needs to fight for a place that may motivate him more and we may see some serious effort. Therefore, a straight swap with Rooney would be in order. So big challenge for LVG, does he have the balls to drop his captain, to keep the balance of the team.
 
redevil2 said:
I apologise if my post sounds false! I forgot things (and you pointed out to me to correct me, hence I remember!). Since you're the more civilised one I responded with what I thought without arguing! Sorry if it didn't come across well. I was in a hurry when posting. I did learn! Tks
Click to expand...
Fair enough apologies if I took it up the wrong way
 
Insanity said:
No, never. I don't do blind faiths.

I am thrilled with the last two performances and would be relieved if we managed to finish in the top 4 at the end of the season. But that is the bare minimum. I hate the fact that expectations have dropped so far at United that top 4 would be considered an achievement. I refuse to become an Arsenal fan, and would not judge a manager on the Wenger scale.

I still have my doubts about him. I would consider his tenure a success when he manages to stabilize the club and has us back in the top bracket of European clubs again.
Click to expand...
We are closer to 2nd than 5th, so it is not as though we are seeking 4th. However, when you consider the gap between us and the teams that finished above us last year, and the spending of those teams to make them stronger, it would have been a very brave man to suggest with our loss of senior players and a new manager that a title challenge was in the offering.

All of City, Arsenal and United have 2nd in their own hands. So whoever wins all their matches will get second. If we beat City (which would be a first for a long time) then I would put money on us for 2nd.
 
Sultan said:
Rooney provides a lot of energy and movement off the ball taking defenders out of their comfort zones. Something RvP and Falcao failed to do when played.
Click to expand...

MDFC Manager said:
It's not that clear cut a distinction. Rooney did none of that on Sunday. When fit, RvP provides plenty of aggression and movement as well. I'll concede that Rooney has better pace and acceleration but RvP has his uses as well, providing far better hold up play.
Click to expand...

I think more accurately put (and more important in the system we're playing) is that Rooney presses from the front, and does so tirelessly.

This was apparent on Sunday, he pressed endlessly and chased down every backpass played to Mignolet. Indeed, at one point Rooney almost stole the ball from him.

RvP and Falcao don't offer this at all and it makes a massive, massive difference (even when Rooney's having a 'bad game'.

Without the pressing from the front I assure you that we wouldn't've dominated Liverpool at Anfield.
 
Could our recent good play be the result of lvg giving more freedom to the players. One example is one touch passing in the midfield and defense. I swear in January and February there were so many opportunities to move the ball quickly but we would always seem to take 2 or 3 touches before passing. Hence our play was so slow and boring. Maybe lvg had this restriction because he didn't trust the players with the system. The last 3 games though have been totally different.
 
I think it's more likely the players are more confident knowing where their teammates will be and in their ability to find them with the early ball. This is why it traditionally takes a while for his team to get going.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.