I think it has to do with the World Cup. Previously he said he would always attempt to play attractive attacking possession style football, and would make no concessions with that. Obviously with the World Cup he didn't do that, he did something he never did before, pure result football. And succesfully. Unfortunately he took that with him to this club, and thought he could build further on that. I've followed him for more than 2 decades and I was very surprised this past summer and his first months here. He used to be so obsessed with the Dutch possession style with 2 wingers. It's like he thought he reinvented himself at the World Cup, but I'm happy he's now falling back on what I think he's best at.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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I think it has to do with the World Cup. Previously he said he would always attempt to play attractive attacking possession style football, and would make no concessions with that. Obviously with the World Cup he didn't do that, he did something he never did before, pure result football. And succesfully. Unfortunately he took that with him to this club, and thought he could build further on that. I've followed him for more than 2 decades and I was very surprised this past summer and his first months here. He used to be so obsessed with the Dutch possession style with 2 wingers. It's like he thought he reinvented himself at the World Cup, but I'm happy he's now falling back on what I think he's best at.
I don't think I see that as unfortunate. A bit of pragmatism and putting winning above dogmatic adherence to a beautiful system that is destined to fail. I see that as a positive development. I imagine plenty of gooners wish Wenger had a similar epiphany.
His system doesn't tend to be destined to fail though. And I think this idealistic approach is what left the long term mark on his previous clubs and layed the groundworks for some later success.
However, I'm not saying that that approach is the best or only succesful approach in general, but it is where he has had the most experience and success with. And I think it's unwise to change all that on the basis of the World Cup.
I think now that he has found a system that works - and that we have seen working, LVG will be able to be a bit sterner with dropping players (like ADM and RVP when he returns to fitness).
Before in the season he was trying various systems, things werent working so he was playing his 'best' players because we didnt have a tried and tested system to fall back on. Now that we have had a good couple of games with Rooney as lone striker and the Carrick/Herrera/Fellaini midfield, I think he will want to stick to it for the most part.
Before in the season he was trying various systems, things werent working so he was playing his 'best' players because we didnt have a tried and tested system to fall back on. Now that we have had a good couple of games with Rooney as lone striker and the Carrick/Herrera/Fellaini midfield, I think he will want to stick to it for the most part.
Destined to fail was the wrong expression. Point is tho, a bit of pragmatism is unlikely to be a bad thing imo if it's in the service of winning.
I really hope you're right.
Not only will that sort of performance win over a lot of fans, but the players must be all getting on board now, if doubts persisted before.
Not even Fergie would've had the cajones to rock up to Anfield with the intention of totally dominating the game. Far from it, we used to almost encourage Liverpool control and hit them on a counter.
Must give the players huge confidence.
I've enjoyed all our big games this season, even the couple of defeats. Lots left to be desired in the smaller games but an easier problem to fix.
Not even Fergie would've had the cajones to rock up to Anfield with the intention of totally dominating the game. Far from it, we used to almost encourage Liverpool control and hit them on a counter.
Must give the players huge confidence.
I've enjoyed all our big games this season, even the couple of defeats. Lots left to be desired in the smaller games but an easier problem to fix.
That's something I've noticed as a sharp contrast to last season. Under Moyes, our record against the big teams were atrocious. They were beyond abysmal. Not only were we losing, but we were often getting utterly dominated and thrashed by teams like City and Liverpool.
With LVG, we've done a lot better in that regard. A double over Liverpool, an away win to Arsenal, a draw at home to Chelsea, and 4 points in our games against Spurs. A positive change, certainly.
Yep, under Moyes there was no hope. You dreaded the big games. It was quite literally a hopeless situation.
Even when things under Van Gaal weren't going great and all those Moyes comparison tables were going around, there was still hope.
I can't wait for our games against City and Chelsea now.
The new approach being implemented by LVG is probably the most radical change of direction this club has made since Ron Atkinson done away with the more pragmatic style of his predecessor Dave Sexton. It's been the mantra of United that we play with two out and out wide players and skin the opposition with exciting counter attack style football.
It's been great fun for the best part of 25 years but has it really been the right approach all of that time ? Domestically you would have to say yes but United are bigger than just enjoying domestic success and two Champions Leagues - one every twelve years during the Fergie years- I think is under achieving.
Van Gaals obsession with possession is slower, undoubtedly less exhilarating but ultimately I think we can become more of a force in the CL. It is football with the hand brake slightly on but his style will encourage concentration, discipline and patience and his philosophy of the ball coming to the player as opposed to the player going to the ball is centred around creating space when not in possession and vision and accuracy of passing when you've got the ball at your feet.
You obviously need the personnel and not just the tactics to unlock the meanest of European defences but sometimes under Fergie in Europe I felt we were easy pickings and some of our very worst European performances were when we ironically tried to play the way can Gaal is now but we had players who weren't comfortable playing a slow possession game, it was everything their Saturday approach wasn't but under van Gaal I feel we will be far better suited and prepared for CL football.
It's been great fun for the best part of 25 years but has it really been the right approach all of that time ? Domestically you would have to say yes but United are bigger than just enjoying domestic success and two Champions Leagues - one every twelve years during the Fergie years- I think is under achieving.
Van Gaals obsession with possession is slower, undoubtedly less exhilarating but ultimately I think we can become more of a force in the CL. It is football with the hand brake slightly on but his style will encourage concentration, discipline and patience and his philosophy of the ball coming to the player as opposed to the player going to the ball is centred around creating space when not in possession and vision and accuracy of passing when you've got the ball at your feet.
You obviously need the personnel and not just the tactics to unlock the meanest of European defences but sometimes under Fergie in Europe I felt we were easy pickings and some of our very worst European performances were when we ironically tried to play the way can Gaal is now but we had players who weren't comfortable playing a slow possession game, it was everything their Saturday approach wasn't but under van Gaal I feel we will be far better suited and prepared for CL football.
His big game record is impressive showing tactical quality. Maybe if we had a 30 goal a season striker shitting on the smaller teams we would be title challengers.
While I understand how you wanted to give all credits to our current manager, I can't help remind you that Carrick for example has just come back to the team and viola, our team suddenly came to live. The players might need time to implement his "philosophy" but lets not forget that if this is the sole reason for our past two emphatic wins, then how come Carrick only took 9 mins on the pitch to stamp his authority after two months out! Credit where its due, will you!
LvG might have won the league in the respective country he worked in, they are also different kind of leagues than the PL, and in every team, he did not stay long enough to prove if his system is the perfect of them all. Its still early days to describe he has the perfect system for United. If it is only down to his system, everyone will be adopting it and teach it to their teams. I don't see the footballing world is readily finding ways to learn the Van Gaal way as yet for example. Anyway, I am not debating with you whether he's the best or not, but imagine he's applying his system in a lower team?! Even Van Gaal himself, a proud man would never boost he has the prefect system. Agree?!
No doubt about it </SAF Voice>
Give us a Diego Costa, Zlatan, Lewandowski type forward and we would be at least another 7-10 better. Without the injury crisis and subsequent constant reshuffling of tactics and lineups, we would probably have another 5-10 on top of that. All in all, LvG has done a pretty good job with the transitional squad we have, especially since our alleged world beaters Falcao and Di Maria have under performed.
Correlation does not equal causation.
It will be interesting to see how we react now if we go a goal behind with this new style of play (if I can call it that) from the Spurs and Liverpool games.
I think that is discrediting Fergie hugely, he mastered CL aways in his final years with the exception of the car crash of 11/12. We went for mindnumbing 0-0s away to Marseille and Inter off the top of my head playing the kind patient European game that we lacked before Queiroz's second spell. We didn't do the same admittedly in domestic games and my jaws were on the floor for the first half an hour on Sunday. No question that was the best we've played at Anfield for as long as I can remember and I love the fact that we dare to go toe to toe with the top four again rather than sitting back and hoping for the best.
I would argue Rooney will give us goals, on sky sports i was reading an article comparing strikers because wenger made some comments about Giroud, they said Rooney is the most efficient striker in the premier league, by that they mean his chance conversion rate.
I had no problem with Louis van Gaal trying to get RVP and Falcao firing, I would have done the same, but Rooney does guarantee goals and a lot more in that 9 position so next season could be interesting even if we don't sign another striker.
Who says it does?!
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Whats your view on the claim that the team took time to understand to implement a difficult system and then suddenly got it and implementing perfectly Van Gaal Philosophy at Spurs and Pool games? With greatest respect, to attribute the reasons for the last two successful games (not just winning 3 points but the performance at least first half of each game) to only a difficult prefect system which was understood by players slowly and taking time to learn it, is a bit BS to be honest! If we had Carrick back for the Arsenal game, do you think we would have exited so easily? Its hypothetically but we can use it for purpose of debating. There are more than one reason we played so well in the last two games and I believe Carrick is one of them
You honestly think the cause of our performances against Spurs and Liverpool was Michael Carrick?
Just like when Louis van Gaal was struggling at Barcelona and then it all changed, Mourinho his assistant and Guardiola his captain told him what to do, now the great Michael Carrick has told Louis van Gaal what he needs to do.
A lot of people are going on about what's going to happen when van Persie gets back. I might be a tad optimistic but I've allowed myself to believe he's going to play well if the rest of the team's playing as they have the last to games.
It's not like Rooney was actually good yesterday.
It's not like Rooney was actually good yesterday.
Great post. You share my exact sentiments. I can't wait to get back in the CL. If we have another great transfer window I feel we will have a side capable of making the CL final with the style of play we have adopted. I wish Van gaal had the opportunity to play in Europe aswell as we would have had a great chance of winning Europa with his style of play. The fact that he can play less physical and more technical players in Europe works well for him I think.
If rvp comes in Rooney can play instead of fellaini or Herrera I think. With that said I don't think rvp will wall into this team... Just like di Maria who is struggling to get in aswel
Nah I'm not expecting him to walk into the side. Not on the back of these two performances. But someone could get injured, you never know. I'm just saying that if he plays, he might actually play well. But as I said, that could just be me getting a bit giddy.
Read post #3261 the one above yours.You honestly think the cause of our performances against Spurs and Liverpool was Michael Carrick?
Just like when Louis van Gaal was struggling at Barcelona and then it all changed, Mourinho his assistant and Guardiola his captain told him what to do, now the great Michael Carrick has told Louis van Gaal what he needs to do.
If you are naive enough to believe that the Van Gaal system is so prefect it took the players time to implement and all of a sudden they performed at the Spurs game and not sooner, or later, then I think you are in denial. Everyone knows Michael Carrick made a difference in the two past wins not just getting the points we needed, but how fluent we played and how confident the side had become. He's among one of the reasons we did well.
Well in the past things have clicked too, FC Bayern won in Bundesliga 5 of their first 13 matches, on the verge of getting knocked out of Europe Louis van Gaal had to go to Juventus and win, if he didn't he probably would have been sacked, he won in turin 1-4, back in the bundesliga this sparked a run of 9 straight wins and he finished the season doing the domestic double and losing in the champions league final to a Mourinho Inter in its second season. He even knocked out Ferguson's United in the semi-finals, a United that two seasons previously won the champions league and the season previously got to the final, it really should not have been a contest with a van Gaal team in only its first season but when things click they click, that's just the philosophy man.
Ahh yes I get you.... I think rvp actually would revel in this current system we have especially with fellaini doing all the hold up play so he can concentrate on stretching the defences with his movement.
So you're saying things can't just click and come together?
I think Louis van Gaal was more important to dominating that first half against Liverpool than Carrick or maybe Carrick just didn't tell Ferguson what to do?
One simple question since you are a bit juvenile to discuss things... What would be your guess of the spurs outcome if Carrick were still not getting back? Are you denying he played a major part in the first half of the spurs game?
Yep in the current set up he would be able to focus on playing as a striker and not have to accommodate someone like Falcao's runs as well.
To be fair, mate, you bang on about how there can be more than one reason for our recent success. Carrick is one of them, as you say (and 'credit where it's due, will you!'). But for some reason van Gaal, you know the fella who sets up the team and go through loads of preparation with them, doesn't deserve any credit?
It's an impossible question to answer, Blind would be needed at left back with Rojo and Shaw injured so I don't even know who would be CDM and if it were Blind then Blackett would play at left back and I'm not sure what that would have done for the team's confidence, I even think it's more likely Louis van Gaal would have chosen 3-5-2.
I am of the opinion however the team is capable of performing like they have done with Blind in Carrick's position, even in a few seasons when Carrick is no more I don't think things will fall apart, I think Louis van Gaal will be able to still perform well.
Well to be fair I did say the following. Never discrediting the manager
) I pointed out Van Gaal's system wasn't the sole reason we won and played well. I read that more as Carrick being more responsible for the results than the tactics (especially with the sentence after the one you bolded). I think that's harsh on the rest of the players and the manager. Also Carrick didn't have the best of games against 'Pool as far as I could see.Well to be fair I did say the following. Never discrediting the manager
While I think he may have fortuitously benefited from line-up changes forced on him by injury and suspension (RVP, Shaw, Evans, Di Maria), plus Falcao's obvious struggles, he still had to get the tactics right for each game. That is where he has shown mastery.
Good pre-game tactician, possibly still has selection blind spots, and his world cup with Holland showed that he is a boss at game management.
Good pre-game tactician, possibly still has selection blind spots, and his world cup with Holland showed that he is a boss at game management.
LVG's approach certainly isn't perfect. It takes time to implement and is one that even a lot of talented players wouldn't thrive in. He has also been bounced into a lot of positive changes by circumstance rather than design. Those are definite flaws.
However, it is an approach that gets result and we're starting to see that now. Our players certainly seem to be adapting to it (at last) and that should be regarded as the main factor in our upswing. Of course personnel changes make a difference too (Carrick and Mata particularly) but most of the focus should be on how the team has raised its game as a whole rather than the contributions of individual players.
However, it is an approach that gets result and we're starting to see that now. Our players certainly seem to be adapting to it (at last) and that should be regarded as the main factor in our upswing. Of course personnel changes make a difference too (Carrick and Mata particularly) but most of the focus should be on how the team has raised its game as a whole rather than the contributions of individual players.
No he hadn't been the best in the 'Pool game. But to make sure I am the most biased person around, I would suggest that his presence in the last two games did bring alot more confidence to the side. We were a total different team from the Arsenal game for example. Remember how Herrera described Carrick: He did not say much but when he did you listen. I believe his leadership had played a major part and his return after two months out to the Spurs game anyone could see how he was the talisman.
Ander: "Carrick's very serious, but suits another quote by Bielsa: Leaders don't need to speak much, but you listen to them when they speak
Oh I absolutely love Carrick. Being a CM myself I pay a lot of attention to how he plays. All I'm saying is, I don't think he was the main reason for our good games, but you're obviously entitled to disagree with that.
Rooney provides a lot of energy and movement off the ball taking defenders out of their comfort zones. Something RvP and Falcao failed to do when played.
It's not that clear cut a distinction. Rooney did none of that on Sunday. When fit, RvP provides plenty of aggression and movement as well. I'll concede that Rooney has better pace and acceleration but RvP has his uses as well, providing far better hold up play.
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