United under LvG: verdict so far!

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I often think that @noodlehair's rants are at least somewhat over the top, but I agree with pretty much everything in that post. Yesterday we actually played very well in the first half - our defensive issues came from players being dragged out of positions too easily, but most of that could've been addressed with a few tactical changes. Offensively we played a lot better than we've done recently. Yet, for whatever reason, LVG decides to make two subs during half-time. The same manager who has saved his subs until the 70th minute (or later) in other games where we desperately needed something else decided to make two changes during half-time, when the team was actually doing well. I have no idea how to explain that.

The way were playing, I wouldn't mind seeing him go in the summer even if we do manage to finish 4. We're playing shit football and LVG is not getting the best out of most of our players.
 
Adebesi said:
That's what the greater part of my brain says too.

That small nagging part of it says money isnt everything. Look at Liverpool - less now than in the 90s and early 00s before the likes of Chelsea got mega rich. It wasnt the want of money that did for them.
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I thought it was the net spend story...

Yeah, I see what you mean. Love the away support blah, blah... armchair fan are not entitled to an opinion and so on, but I think in a generation of demand for instant reward and on the back of the most successful two decades in the history of the club any manager would struggle unless proven an instant success. That's more of a worry than anything else.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Fair enough, then yeah it's a fair point. If we keep messing things up at the top then yeah we could face the same cycle as Liverpool. However we should eventually get it right as it's difficult to waste £150m every year.

I disagree about the fact that football works in cycles, I think the period of one club dominating was over once the sugar daddies came in and Champions League football concentrated wealth to a few clubs in each country.
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Maybe. History is littered with people thinking the times they lived in were different from the times that came before, that some kind of paradigm shift had changed the rules. Sometimes they were right, more often they were wrong. Only hindsight will tell us which applies here.
 
When he was appointed the hope among united fans was surely van Gaal laying the foundations for future success just like he did at Bayern. This however is looking like Barça 2002-03 without the threat of relegation.
 
holyland red said:
The players he "lost" are either not at the club anymore or should be shipped in the summer. He had every chance to improve on his first season, during which he gave chances to players who did not deserve it, if he was given time to bring in his own players. The transition period he was given charge of was obviously going to involve a struggle for authority over aging primma donnas. None of those were a Messy we couldn't do without, as we can clearly see now.
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I don't think he is that far off losing this lot either, they might actually like the training and to an extent like him, but if they results carry on then they sure as hell won't want all the blame put on them.
 
The Bayern fans out there, is this beginning to look like things that happened there in the end? The Barca fans are saying it looks like what was happening during his bad spell with them.
 
Jaytay said:
It's not that Ferguson couldn't be replaced after he left. It's the fact that we made the wrong appointment. Moyes should have never been appointed, he was a mediocre and average signing. The majority of fans knew deep down inside that he wasn't right for the club but got behind him because of SAF.

Ancelotti, Mourinho, Guardiola, Klopp, Pellegrini, Simeone are all attached to other clubs. Basically Van Gaal was the only manager available. If all those managers above were available we wouldn't want Van Gaal and neither would Woodward.

So we have hired a second manager who is not the best but the best we could get.

Now had we appointed someone elite from the very beginning instead of Moyes we wouldn't be in this predicament.
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I believe that SAF couldn't be replaced neither by himself. Once the old guard grew too old to carry the team no one could make that team win.
 
Adebesi said:
Maybe. History is littered with people thinking the times they lived in were different from the times that came before, that some kind of paradigm shift had changed the rules. Sometimes they were right, more often they were wrong. Only hindsight will tell us which applies here.
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Possibly but the whole cycles theory has been overexaggerated because for a while it seemed like Liverpool dominated and we were average, then we dominated and Liverpool were average. True dominance by either club lasted for about 10 years, success was then flittered around with other clubs.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
The Bayern fans out there, is this beginning to look like things that happened there in the end? The Barca fans are saying it looks like what was happening during his bad spell with them.
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Balu said:
It's different than our 2nd season. It looks more like he's still in the first 5 months of our first season, looking for a fitting formation, a starting XI that he likes and wants to use and build on. It just hasn't happened yet, maybe it never will. Underrating the league, his signings (Braafheid, Pranjic) maybe not being good enough for the step up, failure to use some of the club's big money signings effectively (Gomez, Tymoshchuk) were all problems in our first season. We turned it around in December though, when Schweinsteiger started to excel in midfield and Robben returned from injury. It gave van Gaal the players he needed to form the team.

Our 2nd season was more about not changing anything once the previously well working tactics lead to problems and other teams started to exploit the flaws consistently. That and refusing to buy new players to strengthen the squad further and picking stupid and unnecessary fights with everyone because of his arrogance were his main problems in the 2nd season.
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Roboc7 said:
I haven’t assumed we need a world class 11, I made no mention of that but we need to be a lot better than what we are now to catch up with Chelsea and that requires 4-5 new players in the summer plus improvements from the players we have. I am not going to assume all our signings will come good because by the law of averages they won’t and a lot of them can’t actually play together.

It is a fair point about not being scared to bring in a new manager but who is going to pick the replacement? How long will they take to make their mind up? The likes of Chelsea and Real just get on with it, we have been incompetent, I only see the logic in replacing LVG if we identify the right man and get him in as soon as LVG is sacked, anything short of that and we will only be adding to the problem. So far we have appointed someone who was totally under qualified and someone who had no knowledge of the league, squad and was away at the World Cup at a time when we were looking to overhaul the squad.
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Your last point was our biggest mistake and it turns out that we went for Van Gaal and all the baggage he comes with. I guess our hands were tied the moment we failed to lure Conte or Klopp.
My point about world class players was centered on your assertion that we need 5-8 players. Imo players like Herrera, Rojo and Blind have the capacity to be very good players for us leaving us needing just three to four players in the summer, same goes with Rafael - he might never match his 2012-13 form but having him as our RB with AV as cover, for the next couple of seasons, wouldn't drag us back. The position where we definitely require a world clas addition is CB.
I, too, share your concern about our competency at board level to make the right appointment and I have been on record saying that our structure is too corporatised. We need someone, not necessarily a DOF, close to Woodward to help make the 'football' decisions whilst he does all that shirt selling stuff. Since Fergie we have maintained the structure where the manager is omnipotent in our football matters but we come unstuck when we have to replace the same person. We could create a committe of former players but individually and collectively they seem stuck in the Fergie era and can't seem to think any differently, e.g. Gary Neville and Paul Scholes would be bent on candidates that are Fergie like etc.
 
Chaky_Best said:
I’m afraid of that. LVG is only showing is incapacity since 8 months to run the team, to have results and to make the best player the better player. It’s continuously insane that your keeper is your best player, and it’s the same week after week.

I’m afraid that without Champions League and the Financial requirements, we need to be more drastic than it was, and the argument “we’re not in Champions League this year only” will not work to recruit top players.

In order to get back to the top 4 (assuming we’re not), we’ll have to have better players than Ars and Pool, and even Spurs and co next year…. And we all know that we need at least 5 new players to compete next year. Do you think that we will have 5 top players next year without CL for the second year in a row ?

It would be massive if we can keep De Gea and Di Maria in this context, we can offload two or three but recruiting the players we need to get back to the top, only Champions League football can give us that.
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We dont need better players than Ars and Pool, we need a better squad.
 
holyland red said:
I reckon it was a mistake sacking a manager 6 months into his 6-year contract, especially considering the unfavourable circumstances of having to replace the best manager the club ever had.
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Fair enough but appointing him to replace the best manager the club ever had and to 6 years was a mistake in the start but we all know that.
 
Brophs said:
The DOF is too easy a stick to beat us with. Yeah, you want football people making the decision, not footballing midgets like Woodward, but if you have a proper scouting and recruitment department then you get the same information. A DOF will only ever really act on their reports anyway.

Whether we have any of that I don't know.
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I effing well hope we do, otherwise we're really up shit creek.
 
holyland red said:
I reckon it was a mistake sacking a manager 6 months into his 6-year contract, especially considering the unfavourable circumstances of having to replace the best manager the club ever had.
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Still think the biggest reason for the Moyes sacking was that essentially everyone in the club(including the receptionist ) hated him and his work method. To keep Moyes would of meant replacing the whole team.

Clearly it's not the same situation with LVG.
 
Im not impressed tbh. We started decent at the start but now we look a little all over the place. Do many people think he'll stay if we miss out on top 4?
 
Mali_Zeus said:
LVG is at fault for many things, but not this. Falcao had his chances.
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He looks bereft of confidence and its no surprise. He won the pen against SUndelrand with a tidy turn, the first half decent thing he'd done in the match, and then got subbed seconds later. Whether the player is playing well or not, what signal does that send to him? Its embarrasing for the player.

It highlights the point. He doesnt seem to be able to get the best out of what he has, nor are a number of players playing for him. RVP should be thrilled Van Gaal is in charge and firing on all cyliniders, when in fact he's looked dreadful and horriiby out of place in the system.

When top players didnt perform for Moyes, he was blamed - now it seems its the players. The reality is its a mix of the two.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
The Bayern fans out there, is this beginning to look like things that happened there in the end? The Barca fans are saying it looks like what was happening during his bad spell with them.
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Reading the book on Pep Guardiola at present.

The Bayern board seem to praise LVG quite abit but say the main reason for getting rid was because of the boring football, they wanted the tempo in the game and LVG's football was sending the crowd to sleep!

I can see the same thing happening here, ticket sales will drop if we have to put up with much more of this boring football next season.

I don't think we will get top 4 but I think he will stay, only to be sacked by xmas and Giggs taking over.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
Fair enough but appointing him to replace the best manager the club ever had and to 6 years was a mistake in the start but we all know that.
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None of us know who was on the shortlist, and would have taken the job if offered. Many of us, myself included, were optimistic with the long-term Moyes appointment.
 
Ive got plenty of questions about what happened last night but not playing Falcao definitely isnt one of them. If he had brought him on and it had ended the same he'd be getting just as much stick - probably more. Its wisdom after the fact. One tidy turn against Sunderland does not signal a great revival.
 
pascell said:
Last summer was our chance to bridge the gap between the quality of our squad compared to City and Chelsea, the gap hasn't been bridged at all.
For the large part of this season, our defence has looked shakey, midfield lacks pace and creativity and our attack lacks serious pace and power.
It looks as the season has gone one, the quality of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs and Lpool has improved and we have remained stagnant.
Van Gaal has spent too much of the season tinkering with the team and tactics, aiming to achieve his best 11 and it's stopped us from improving. Many will say 'we're still 4th' but after the next month of fixtures, I don't think we will. Even if we did achieve CL football, we wouldn't cope well at all with how we've shaped up this season.
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I agree with that, and the worrying part is that despite spendintg £150 million (or whatever it was) the squad seems only slightlyb better that we were last year. We're at least two (perhaps 3) defenders light and we need creativity out wide as well as an option other than Carrick in midfield. We also need a forward.
 
Some posters shot me down for calling Louis a dinosaur and out of touch,I would have preferred Jose or Ancelotti as I think they are more accustomed to the modern game,I mean Ajax was a very long time ago,barca and Bayern are two horse race leagues. I just don't understand what Louis is trying to achieve, the ADM transfer was a complete waste of money as we have been screaming out for a centre mid for about 8 years now.

Well I still will support him through thick and thin, but this was my worry in appointing LVG that yes he is a big name, rather than building off that, he seems to be living off it with bizarre decisions and stale predictable tactics. If he does not adapt I can see him going by next season, if Ancelotti gets binned by Madrid then Louis has to get top 4 which ain't looking Rosie.
 
I for one is getting a bit on the side of those who don´t see eye to eye with the man..
He makes too many strange decisions for my liking.. Sorry yesterday we had Arsenal pinned in their box for the last 10 minutes of the first half and he makes two changes at half time??? It took us 20 minutes of the second half to find rythm again and then Di Maria get´s the boot! So we never had any great spells in the second half. He has had so many chances this season to find his first 11 but he shuffles and cuts again and again.

If Luke Shaw wasnt fit why play him? I just dont get what he is on about with some players.. Herrera has been good when he plays but he is always on the chopping block ready to be swapped for somebody. Valencia isn´t a right back ok? Not the first match this season when he uses up most of our substitutions changing the backline.. Rafael hasn´t done much wrong but that might be because he hasnt got a sniff this season. but at least he is a RB..

It´s time to smell the shit you´re shuffling we have been lucky many times this season and without De Gea in goal we would be down and buried in the league long time ago.. Next two matches are against Tottenham and Liverpool away, dropping points there isn´t going to help us getting CL spot this season. If he doesn´t get us a CL spot I see no signs from The Man why we should keep on going with him, nothing he has done this season has made me believe that he is the ONE..
 
Starting Fellaini
2 awful substitutions at half time, when we dominated the 1st half, why waste 2 subs ?
Keeping Fellaini on
Not having a specific strategy for the final 10 minutes

LVG might be making things complicated for himself, looking at the players on the team and the bench yesterday it was quite clear that we had quality players, but Mr Van Gaal really isn't getting the best out of them, i am not calling for him to be sacked just yet, but i am really scared of what he might turn us into.

If his master plan is not executed perfectly at the end of his 3 years it might take us back another 6 years, we might have to start rebuilding a team which was formed by a manager who was supposed to be rebuilding in the first place.

This is the first season where every game feels like a cup final from Yeovil to Cambridge to Chelsea victory has never been guaranteed for us this season, even with Moyes (even though we were crap) it was business as usual against some teams.
 
Chaky_Best said:
I’m afraid of that. LVG is only showing is incapacity since 8 months to run the team, to have results and to make the best player the better player. It’s continuously insane that your keeper is your best player, and it’s the same week after week.

I’m afraid that without Champions League and the Financial requirements, we need to be more drastic than it was, and the argument “we’re not in Champions League this year only” will not work to recruit top players.

In order to get back to the top 4 (assuming we’re not), we’ll have to have better players than Ars and Pool, and even Spurs and co next year…. And we all know that we need at least 5 new players to compete next year. Do you think that we will have 5 top players next year without CL for the second year in a row ?

It would be massive if we can keep De Gea and Di Maria in this context, we can offload two or three but recruiting the players we need to get back to the top, only Champions League football can give us that.
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One could argue that the players we have are just as good as the teams you've mentioned but we do not have a better team than them as a result of our imbalance. We need to identify the players that will restore the balance and chuck out those that do not fit in regardless of past reputation or other non football dynamics. The ''five top players'' we supposedly need won't be needed at once if redress the balance of the side, you'd be surprised by how solid defenders like Smalling and Jones would look with better protection, how many more chances we would create if we have a genuine wide threat on the other wing or how deadly players like Herrera/Mata would be if they were surrounded by runners.
So we are not in terminal decline yet but we do need to halt the slide, either by sticking with Van Gaal or by making sure the next appointment is spot on. LvG's willingness to compromise the team's effectiveness so as to suck up to our prima donnas has disappointed me greatly, his selections and substitutions have eroded my faith in him and the paucity of any significant improvement have sealed the deal for me, he has to go.
 
RedRover said:
He looks bereft of confidence and its no surprise. He won the pen against SUndelrand with a tidy turn, the first half decent thing he'd done in the match, and then got subbed seconds later. Whether the player is playing well or not, what signal does that send to him? Its embarrasing for the player.

It highlights the point. He doesnt seem to be able to get the best out of what he has, nor are a number of players playing for him. RVP should be thrilled Van Gaal is in charge and firing on all cyliniders, when in fact he's looked dreadful and horriiby out of place in the system.

When top players didnt perform for Moyes, he was blamed - now it seems its the players. The reality is its a mix of the two.
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LVG didnt tell him to have a bad first touch, not to run behind defenses, to fluff his chances, to be slow and generally out of form.
He won a penalty vs sunderland and suddenly its all good?
THe signal he got is, sorry you're out of form and you're not good enough right now to start.
 
holyland red said:
I reckon it was a mistake sacking a manager 6 months into his 6-year contract, especially considering the unfavourable circumstances of having to replace the best manager the club ever had.
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Wasn't a mistake IMO, the mistake was hiring him in the first place.
 
Would anyone suggest we sack him now? Genuine question and it won't happen since we're still in the mix to get 4th.
 
Why sack him? Are we so sure it'd be any different with any other manager at the helm? There's noway of knowing for sure, but I'd suggest it would make more sense to give van Gaal at least another season. What if Ancelotti comes in and we're still shite? Then what? Another wasted year of a team adapting to a new philosophy and performing poorly. The manager isn't the significant issue, for me, it's the players and their lack of fight for Manchester United. They look defeated half the time, and have for over a season now too.
 
I thought we looked good attacking and awufull defending in the first half which is why he made those 2 subs. Carrick to stop the ball from reaching our defence so easily and Jones as CB with Rojo LB beeing more defensive. We were still better than them and looking to score it just all went wrong with that back pass.
 
F
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Humiliated by lower league opposition in the League Cup.

Struggled past lower league opposition in the FA Cup, needing a replay against a League 2 side, before being knocked out at home.

Now could end up failing to improve on last year's league position.

And the style of football is dire.

It's officially as bad as it was under Moyes right now.
 
Judge Red said:
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0/10
0%

Humiliated by lower league opposition in the League Cup.

Struggled past lower league opposition in the FA Cup, needing a replay against a League 2 side, before being knocked out at home.

Now could end up failing to improve on last year's league position.

And the style of football is dire.

It's officially as bad as it was under Moyes right now.
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Well no it's not because we're currently fourth.
 
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