United under LvG: verdict so far!

[PlayerOne]

I honestly don't see how buying players helps things. LVG hasn't even gotten the best out of the current ones. It just seems LVG is lost and it shows in the way we play.

If LVG had to stay then we should be looking to bring in a DoF.

 

[Vato]

This is the only way to sum it up so far

Spoiler

 

[holyland red]

Correct me if I am wrong but weren't Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Zaha and co considered the next next big thing in British football at par, if not better then the likes of Stones and Coleman? What benefits had these players and other EPL proven talent such as Valencia, Young, Fellaini and Mata given to the squad? If Backley, Stones and Coleman are so great then why are Everton 6 points away from the relegation zone? If there's so much talent in the British isles then why do they fare so poorly during the WC etc?

We currently have a leaking defense which is made up of players who shouldn't be playing at top club level (Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Valencia, Evans etc). The midfield inherited by LVG was equally crap (Cleverley,Ando, Fellaini and a 33 year old Carrick) and we lack creativity and quality on the flanks (one trick ponies Valencia and Young). I am not saying that LVG shouldn't have done better. Playing Rooney in CM is criminal. However 150m are peanuts when you consider the mess we're in.

Come on, are you suggesting United stop buying British? That we shop in the summer for a full squad? Why are people suggesting we buy Coleman or Stones, who cost Everton a bag of crisps a couple of seasons ago? They'd be 15-20 million each in the summer, when uncle Ed gets his wallet out.

Mata, Januzaj, Di Maria and Rooney are a very good core of attacking unit, with a good mix of experience and potential. I've not given up on Smalling, and think he could be excellent next to a solid CB partner. We have a decent LB, who's struggles with fitness and move to a bigger stage. I would love to have a manager whop could add to that with young promising British players other than the odd star name.

BTW, the squad "inherited" (+ manic shopping spree) by LVG is superior to that inherited by Moyes, and we're in a mess 150 million later.

 

[Dr Fink]

LVG's "philosophy" is 10 years out of date. It is now clear to me at this point in the season that it is the manager and his "tactics" and "way of playing" is stifling and holding back the players. You cannot play like this in the PL. ADM was arguably the 4th best player in the world and LVG is ruining him. Shaw bombed down the wing overlapping the full back at SFC but you can see him stop behind the winger, despite the fans urging him on. The amount of times I see the CBs carry the ball out and then flay their hands out in frustration at the lack of forward movement is far too often. Keep the ball doesn't work in the PL......it needs to be moved quicker. We need a younger, more modern manager and directive and us fans need a huge, huge dose of patience. We are slipping further under LVG.......it's hurting us all.

 

[Brophs]

I honestly don't see how buying players helps things. LVG hasn't even gotten the best out of the current ones. It just seems LVG is lost and it shows in the way we play.

If LVG had to stay then we should be looking to bring in a DoF.

The DOF is too easy a stick to beat us with. Yeah, you want football people making the decision, not footballing midgets like Woodward, but if you have a proper scouting and recruitment department then you get the same information. A DOF will only ever really act on their reports anyway.

Whether we have any of that I don't know.

 

[itso 7]

I hope I am wrong but I think we are on the verge of a collapse that will see our top 4 hopes fall away fairly quickly, there has been hardly any progress all season and Liverpool and Arsenal are both better than us.

The money spent since SAF retired has been spent in a panic on mostly the wrong players and this still looks like a squad that needs 5-8 new players and a 2 or 3 year rebuild which is identical to how things were prior to LVG taking over. Personally I think LVG is out dated but don’t see who else we can turn to and Woodward isn’t competent or knowledgeable enough to recruit the right manager or players.

We are in a big mess and I am not convinced LVG is the right man to resolve it but the alternative of bringing someone else in when there are no obvious candidates and ruining another transfer window is probably a worse alternative than getting rid of him. We are paying the price for appointing an incompetent successor to SAF and then replacing Moyes with someone who started the job too late.

Your mistake is in the assumption that we need a world class eleven when the problems we have are centered around the imbalance of the squad. Right now, even with this clown, we still have a chance of achieving our objective so what if we had entered the season with a more solid defence and not wasted time tinkering with stupid formations? My opinion id that with the right squad and management it is easy to finish top four, which is why us, Spurs, Liverpool and So'ton still have a chance at this stage.
I agree that we have been in the wilderness since Fergie drove off into the sunset and wrong managerial appointments have cost us dearly since then but I do not see the use of persisting with drinking a slow poison for fear of repeating the same mistake. Chelsea were in the same mess after sacking Ancelotti but they didn't fall to these depths because they maintained one thing through it all - they were difficult to score against save for AVB's ill fated reign. So imo if we address our defensive frailties we still have enough to finish in the top four.
We shouldn't think, for one second, that money will transform us from shit to champions - it does work that way. Incremental improvements on a season by season basis is the way to go. Next season if we sign a WC CB, a top class CM and a prolific winger and dump this experimentation eith formations we will definitely improve. Despite the fact that we haven't seen much from our new signings I believe that Herrera, Blind, ADM and Shaw will play significant roles in our future. A new manager walking into this situation will not have the multitude of issues that LVG had but we need a type that walks in with a clear vision of what needs to be done.

 

[PlayerOne]

The DOF is too easy a stick to beat us with. Yeah, you want football people making the decision, not footballing midgets like Woodward, but if you have a proper scouting and recruitment department then you get the same information. A DOF will only ever really act on their reports anyway.

Whether we have any of that I don't know.

Agreed. I remember Moyes making a lot of changes to the way we scout players and all that, though I do wonder if it's in place.

 

[holyland red]

The comparisons with Moyes at the same time last season are silly. We were on a worse run of results and he had blattantly lost the dressing room.

The one and only positive I can take last night is the fact the team are clearly still playing for the manager. There was real spirit in the effort we put in after going a man down.

The players he "lost" are either not at the club anymore or should be shipped in the summer. He had every chance to improve on his first season, during which he gave chances to players who did not deserve it, if he was given time to bring in his own players. The transition period he was given charge of was obviously going to involve a struggle for authority over aging primma donnas. None of those were a Messy we couldn't do without, as we can clearly see now.

 

[Jazz]

We need to calm down here. This is not the ManUTD under Fergie. Confidence and a certain invincibility flowed through us. From last season, that confidence went. Consequently, every time we move forward and then have a set back, it dents the players' confidence again. This is vey difficult to manage. Us siding with the press and ABUs against our manager and players is not helping. For the last couple of games, we have actually looked better, it is just unfortunate that due to individual mistakes, we lost - but that happens sometimes. We need to stop getting wound up at this time because all this negativity is not helping.

 

[Roboc7]

LVG's "philosophy" is 10 years out of date. It is now clear to me at this point in the season that it is the manager and his "tactics" and "way of playing" is stifling and holding back the players. You cannot play like this in the PL. ADM was arguably the 4th best player in the world and LVG is ruining him. Shaw bombed down the wing overlapping the full back at SFC but you can see him stop behind the winger, despite the fans urging him on. The amount of times I see the CBs carry the ball out and then flay their hands out in frustration at the lack of forward movement is far too often. Keep the ball doesn't work in the PL......it needs to be moved quicker. We need a younger, more modern manager and directive and us fans need a huge, huge dose of patience. We are slipping further under LVG.......it's hurting us all.

This is a very valid concern, I do feel LVG is struggling to adapt to the pace and power of the league and I am concerned his philosophy is out dated and he has arrived in the league 10 years too late. A lot of his ideas sound good on paper but putting them into practice and grasping the need to play at a higher tempo are problems I don’t think he is certain to overcome.

 

[Chaky_Best]

Not good enough from Van Gaal. He had 150M to spend last year and had a team “broken” but full of talent. He could have kept Ferdinand and Evra but he didn’t. He could have kept Kagawa or Welbeck but he didn’t.

1. His summer

Like Moyes, I really think that a lot of our troubles are because our team is unbalanced and we missed our summer window. He made a wrong diagnosis of the team, going for a 3-5-2 during his 5/6 weeks of preparation, buying players for this scheme like Rojo and Blind, agreeing deals for Shaw and Herrera, but changed his mind in a false 4-3-3 or 4-2-2 with Di Maria and Falcao. The players struggled with all the changes, and I’m not sure that all this money was spent wisely. I really think that he underestimated the League and overestimated his capacities and his side’s capacities. His really struggling and can’t find the right player at the right position. He can’t solve Van Persie’s issue, Falcao’issue, Di Maria’s issue and even De Gea prolongation. I think that the team in place was not the worst when he came, and he get rid of the wrong players, especially Rio / Evra / Welbz, and he recruited the wrongs ones, or he didn’t added where we needed the most. We could have spent Falcao’s and Rojo’s budget to buy a top central defender and even a right back.

2. The tactical changes

We began with a 3-5-2 because we were weak defensively and he wanted the ball to go out in a proper manner, against our opponents pressing. The beginning of the season was poor, and he addressed that only with a 4-4-2 diamond when we only relied on Di Maria and De Gea. Remember Everton and West Ham at home. We were poor but thought that it will click, but it doesn’t. 8 months after his arrival, did we progress in our style? No. We have flashes, some good games when the opponents his weak and afraid, but overall we are not playing good football enough. Koeman came to S’ton and in two months his side played brilliant football. Tottenham with a new manager took three months and play top football with wonderful talented players. It’s not down the changes of coach, or the players but only because of his methods. It’s not suited to the league, we’re playing safe, small passes, no pace, no urgency, is there a player, except De Gea, who plays without fear, with passion ? Even Rooney is a bit shy in his game. He does the effort, but is not transmitting anything; it’s in sum how Van Gaal is. Cold and direct…. We changed the system 3 times this season and it’s not good enough. We’re not playing well, loosing our advantage and we’ll lose the 4th spot, go to Europa League by finishing 5th or 6th and then what ?

3. Next year

He came here saying that he will qualify for the Champions League that he’s in a 3 year’s process, but 3 years to be top of the world… at the moment we are not in this process. We’ll not qualify for the Champions League with this kind of performance. We’ll barely go to Europa League, we’ll play Thursdays Sundays and will struggle all the season. We’ll still have a big financial gap because of this second year without Champions League. We’ll probably have to sell players in order to low this gap (TV rights and Adidas money won’t be enough). In top of them we’ll sell De Gea to Madrid, Mata to Valencia or Atletico, Van Persie will go back to Arsenal, the difficulty with not been in CL will make that we’ll keep our bullets like Evans, Smalling and co, Rafael will leave and we’ll have to recruit a mid-table right back for a fortune, we’ll do the same for a central defender, we’ll go for Vlaar or Mexes who are all free this summer I guess, we’ll have to break the bank to add a good midfielder like Schneiderlein, or will get Cabaye, Delph , Mc Carthy or Nigel De Jong in order to complete Carrick, Blind and Herrera… Van Gall will try to persuade one or two Dutch players to come like Depay… And don’t forget that the likes of Di Maria will not spend another year here without Champions League. He’ll do his upmost to go to Paris, he will beg City or Chelsea to buy him, and it’ll not be any swap deal because the likes of Thiago Silva, Bale and co won’t join us without Champions League… So what…. A mid table team we will be, a poor group of players with few top players if not, and we’ll struggle again and again…. He will not even go for some terrific and exciting young players like Fekir or Dybala, because they’ll all seek for Champions League football

 

[ZDwyr]

It's amazing (and sad) how quickly the confidence/belief that Sir Alex built over so long has been eroded in two season by two other managers.

 

[Adebesi]

We need a defense transplant. A defendoplasty.

 

[holyland red]

There's also this part of me that sees this in larger, karmic or quasi biblical terms. Like, we had 27 years of Fergie, 20+ years of unprecedented success, and now we have to pay for it. Like the manager and the players are largely irrelevant and nothing can prevent our cyclical downturn.

Im not superstitious so the larger part of me dismisses this. But I cant shake it as a nagging feeling. It was more than nagging last night, it was overwhelming.

The bible was before Sky money, wasn't it? We'll be fine. Our religion is also much better established than the almighty mumbo-jumbo was back then.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The players he "lost" are either not at the club anymore or should be shipped in the summer. He had every chance to improve on his first season, during which he gave chances to players who did not deserve it, if he was given time to bring in his own players. The transition period he was given charge of was obviously going to involve a struggle for authority over aging primma donnas. None of those were a Messy we couldn't do without, as we can clearly see now.

Don't disagree with most of that. Although I do think he lost some players that are here to stay.

 

[Jazz]

It's amazing (and sad) how quickly the confidence/belief that Sir Alex built over so long has been eroded in two season by two other managers.

It started with Moyes and now LVG is trying to fix that whilst being under enormous pressure. We shouldn't have picked Moyes in the first place but that's all gone now so we need to look forward.

 

[ZDwyr]

It started with Moyes and now LVG is trying to fix that whilst being under enormous pressure. We shouldn't have picked Moyes in the first place but that's all gone now so we need to look forward.

He may be trying to fix it, but in reality he hasn't (and is arguably making it worse).

 

[Blodssvik]

I think it was definitely the right time to move on Rio and Evra. Opponents were targeting our weak left side as Evra frequently found himself in bad positions the last couple of years.

 

[Adebesi]

The bible was before Sky money, wasn't it? We'll be fine. Our religion is also much better established than the almighty mumbo-jumbo was back then.

That's what the greater part of my brain says too.

That small nagging part of it says money isnt everything. Look at Liverpool - less now than in the 90s and early 00s before the likes of Chelsea got mega rich. It wasnt the want of money that did for them.

 

[Jaytay]

What happens if LVG by some miracle does get us to finish 4th this season only for us to loose the qualifiers,how would people feel then ?

That's why Woodward said 3rd place was his target not 4th. 3rd gets you in the CL proper. I can see us losing in the qualifiers because his judgement so far has been flip floppy.

 

[Sammyjunn]

What happens if LVG by some miracle does get us to finish 4th this season only for us to loose the qualifiers,how would people feel then ?

Think about this all the time, would sack him.

 

[Shark]

As many predicted after SAF retired, it looks like we are going to spend some time in the darkness. We're mortal now and realising how difficult it really is to build a consistent, hungry team, something Fergie seemed to be able to do in his sleep. We took it all for granted..

 

[noodlehair]

I'm fed up with this thread tbh but I thought I'd just break down the defences of Van gaal that people keep coming out with in here, because the prooblem with them is, none of them make any sense at all:

The football isn't great but he gets results - Our results will leave us in 5th or 6th place come the end of the season, out of both cups, and with absolutely nothing to show as any sign of improvement from last season. In fact come May the only real difference between then and 12 months before will be that our football has gotten much, much shitter.

He's better than Moyes - Van Gaal has spent £150m on the squad Moyes had, and again, will end up 5th or 6th. His biggest achievement will be an FA Cup quarter final. Moyes got United to a semi final and a CL quarter final. If you look at it objectively, Van Gaal has to somehow fluke 4th place for anyone to be able to make a sensible argument that he's been an improvement.

The players believe in him and his ideas - Does the team look like a team confident and full of belief in what they've been told to do? Does anyone watch our games and seriously think this? In anycase its impossible for the players to believe in Van Gaal's plan, because even Van Gaal doesn't believe in it...otherwise he wouldn't keep changing it every few weeks. How for example can Di Maria or Rooney have any faith in what it is they're doing when they don't even know what position Van Gaal thinks they play in?

He gets the best out of his players - He plays his best striker in midfield. He's turned Di Maria into a pub player. He lets Mata rot on the bench so he can play Fellaini hoof tactics...which also make Fellaini look worse rather than better. Falcao isn't allowed and has gotten progressively worse during the season. He only has one player who can play right back and he's decided he doesn't like him for no apparent reason so never plays him. The only player who's been allowed to perform to their best this season is De Gea...a player who Van Gaal has already bought a replacement for.

The problem is, when I try to look at it from a balanced point of view, I genuinely can't think of a single good thing Van Gaal has done. Every single week there's another list of stupid mistakes and no real sign of any improvement at all. You look at other teams around us and it's not like that at all. We're the only team who every single week look like we're trying to win games in spite of the idiocy of our manager. Last night for example:


- Player who cost us both goals is a winger playing at fullback because Van Gaal has taken an irrational dislike to the ONLY right sided fullback in his squad.
- Player who scores winnning goal is player Van Gaal chose to let leave so he could bring in player who spent whole game sat on the bench doing nothing because Van Gaal has decided he doesn't like him
- Player doing useful things in midfield subbed off deliberately to avoid taking off other player in midfield who was doing nothing.
- Mata and Falcao left on the bench in order for Van Gaal to dick around completely pointlessly with the left fullback position...twice.
- Valencia still left on past half time despite being a positional mess and posing more problems to United than any of the Arsenal players
- Fellaini left on despite being so bad he kept fouling people when HE had the ball.
- Deliberate Fellaini tactics deployed...boot ball to Fellaini...Fellaini controls ball back to same part of the pitch it was booted from, then fouls someone.
- Solution to the Fellaini tactic clearly not working...use the Fellaini tactic more.

You could say it was a one off managerial catastrophe, but in truth, it's just another typical Van Gaal 90 minutes. Terrible mistakes made where other managers wouldn't feel the need to even make a decision in the first place. No coherent short or long term plan. Tactics that are completely irrelevant to the game or opponent. Substitutions that seem almost deliberately designed to lose control of the game. It's the same every week which is what makes it so baffling that people are willing to come on here and defend it time after time.

I said it would irritate me no end when we drop out of the top four and suddenly people change their tune based solely on that...yet come on here claiming that it's other people who don't bother watching our games properly.

 

[#07]

Playing for the manager and not getting the results they want are not bound to be a happy marriage.

They may still play for the manager now, but for how long before they tell Aloysius to feck off just as they told Gollum to? Everything has a breaking point, including a manager's control over a dressing room. If results keep going badly, I'm not even sure a man with a resume like Van Gaal could hold his dressing room together.

I've got a mate who is German and a Bayern fan. He said what we're like now reminds him of Bayern's second season under Van Gaal when it all fell apart. Maybe @Balu has a view?

To me, Van Gaal doesn't look like the right man. I hope I am wrong but I have no confidence that he will turn things around.

I'm fed up with this thread tbh but I thought I'd just break down the defences of Van gaal that people keep coming out with in here, because the prooblem with them is, none of them make any sense at all:

The football isn't great but he gets results - Our results will leave us in 5th or 6th place come the end of the season, out of both cups, and with absolutely nothing to show as any sign of improvement from last season. In fact come May the only real difference between then and 12 months before will be that our football has gotten much, much shitter.

He's better than Moyes - Van Gaal has spent £150m on the squad Moyes had, and again, will end up 5th or 6th. His biggest achievement will be an FA Cup quarter final. Moyes got United to a semi final and a CL quarter final. If you look at it objectively, Van Gaal has to somehow fluke 4th place for anyone to be able to make a sensible argument that he's been an improvement.

The players believe in him and his ideas - Does the team look like a team confident and full of belief in what they've been told to do? Does anyone watch our games and seriously think this? In anycase its impossible for the players to believe in Van Gaal's plan, because even Van Gaal doesn't believe in it...otherwise he wouldn't keep changing it every few weeks. How for example can Di Maria or Rooney have any faith in what it is they're doing when they don't even know what position Van Gaal thinks they play in?

He gets the best out of his players - He plays his best striker in midfield. He's turned Di Maria into a pub player. He lets Mata rot on the bench so he can play Fellaini hoof tactics...which also make Fellaini look worse rather than better. Falcao isn't allowed and has gotten progressively worse during the season. He only has one player who can play right back and he's decided he doesn't like him for no apparent reason so never plays him. The only player who's been allowed to perform to their best this season is De Gea...a player who Van Gaal has already bought a replacement for.

The problem is, when I try to look at it from a balanced point of view, I genuinely can't think of a single good thing Van Gaal has done. Every single week there's another list of stupid mistakes and no real sign of any improvement at all. You look at other teams around us and it's not like that at all. We're the only team who every single week look like we're trying to win games in spite of the idiocy of our manager. Last night for example:


- Player who cost us both goals is a winger playing at fullback because Van Gaal has taken an irrational dislike to the ONLY right sided fullback in his squad.
- Player who scores winnning goal is player Van Gaal chose to let leave so he could bring in player who spent whole game sat on the bench doing nothing because Van Gaal has decided he doesn't like him
- Player doing useful things in midfield subbed off deliberately to avoid taking off other player in midfield who was doing nothing.
- Mata and Falcao left on the bench in order for Van Gaal to dick around completely pointlessly with the left fullback position...twice.
- Valencia still left on past half time despite being a positional mess and posing more problems to United than any of the Arsenal players
- Fellaini left on despite being so bad he kept fouling people when HE had the ball.
- Deliberate Fellaini tactics deployed...boot ball to Fellaini...Fellaini controls ball back to same part of the pitch it was booted from, then fouls someone.
- Solution to the Fellaini tactic clearly not working...use the Fellaini tactic more.

You could say it was a one off managerial catastrophe, but in truth, it's just another typical Van Gaal 90 minutes. Terrible mistakes made where other managers wouldn't feel the need to even make a decision in the first place. No coherent short or long term plan. Tactics that are completely irrelevant to the game or opponent. Substitutions that seem almost deliberately designed to lose control of the game. It's the same every week which is what makes it so baffling that people are willing to come on here and defend it time after time.

I said it would irritate me no end when we drop out of the top four and suddenly people change their tune based solely on that...yet come on here claiming that it's other people who don't bother watching our games properly.

Agree with all of this. Pains me to say so cos I believed in Van Gaal at the start. However, you can't keep ignoring the truth. Van Gaal is mismanaging the team. Had Moyes done the kind of things you highlight in your bullet points the fans would be screaming for his head.

 

[Roboc7]

Your mistake is in the assumption that we need a world class eleven when the problems we have are centered around the imbalance of the squad. Right now, even with this clown, we still have a chance of achieving our objective so what if we had entered the season with a more solid defence and not wasted time tinkering with stupid formations? My opinion id that with the right squad and management it is easy to finish top four, which is why us, Spurs, Liverpool and So'ton still have a chance at this stage.
I agree that we have been in the wilderness since Fergie drove off into the sunset and wrong managerial appointments have cost us dearly since then but I do not see the use of persisting with drinking a slow poison for fear of repeating the same mistake. Chelsea were in the same mess after sacking Ancelotti but they didn't fall to these depths because they maintained one thing through it all - they were difficult to score against save for AVB's ill fated reign. So imo if we address our defensive frailties we still have enough to finish in the top four.
We shouldn't think, for one second, that money will transform us from shit to champions - it does work that way. Incremental improvements on a season by season basis is the way to go. Next season if we sign a WC CB, a top class CM and a prolific winger and dump this experimentation eith formations we will definitely improve. Despite the fact that we haven't seen much from our new signings I believe that Herrera, Blind, ADM and Shaw will play significant roles in our future. A new manager walking into this situation will not have the multitude of issues that LVG had but we need a type that walks in with a clear vision of what needs to be done.

I haven’t assumed we need a world class 11, I made no mention of that but we need to be a lot better than what we are now to catch up with Chelsea and that requires 4-5 new players in the summer plus improvements from the players we have. I am not going to assume all our signings will come good because by the law of averages they won’t and a lot of them can’t actually play together.

It is a fair point about not being scared to bring in a new manager but who is going to pick the replacement? How long will they take to make their mind up? The likes of Chelsea and Real just get on with it, we have been incompetent, I only see the logic in replacing LVG if we identify the right man and get him in as soon as LVG is sacked, anything short of that and we will only be adding to the problem. So far we have appointed someone who was totally under qualified and someone who had no knowledge of the league, squad and was away at the World Cup at a time when we were looking to overhaul the squad.

 

[devilish]

Come on, are you suggesting United stop buying British? That we shop in the summer for a full squad? Why are people suggesting we buy Coleman or Stones, who cost Everton a bag of crisps a couple of seasons ago? They'd be 15-20 million each in the summer, when uncle Ed gets his wallet out.

Mata, Januzaj, Di Maria and Rooney are a very good core of attacking unit, with a good mix of experience and potential. I've not given up on Smalling, and think he could be excellent next to a solid CB partner. We have a decent LB, who's struggles with fitness and move to a bigger stage. I would love to have a manager whop could add to that with young promising British players other than the odd star name.

BTW, the squad "inherited" (+ manic shopping spree) by LVG is superior to that inherited by Moyes, and we're in a mess 150 million later.

I am only suggesting that we need to take a more cautious approach, that's all. Not every British defender who can pass the ball straight is the new Duncan Edwards (excuse the pun). I mean its not as if Britain is producing a lot of world class players lately hasn't they? Also its one thing doing wonders at a small club and its another doing it at a bigger club. Fellaini looked a star at Everton, Lallana and Lambert were good at Southampton, our own Phil and Howard were decent players at Everton and Foster was hailed the new Banks/Schmeichel/Buffon/Jesus/Joseph Smith/Moses/Neo of Matrix/Chuck Norris at Watford. It didnt turned out that great once they are playing at a top club under real pressure doesn't it?

I believe that United had been victim of powerful managers who placed their ideology above what's good to the team. SAF's value strategy eroded the team from talent, Moyes Evertonization saw us buying players who were not appropriate for the team and LVG 'philosophy' took United to new ridiculous high. I guess its time we bring in a manager whose ego isn't that big and had learnt to adapt himself to the circumstances. Hence why I bet my wage on Ancelotti.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

3. Next year

He came here saying that he will qualify for the Champions League that he’s in a 3 year’s process, but 3 years to be top of the world… at the moment we are not in this process. We’ll not qualify for the Champions League with this kind of performance. We’ll barely go to Europa League, we’ll play Thursdays Sundays and will struggle all the season. We’ll still have a big financial gap because of this second year without Champions League. We’ll probably have to sell players in order to low this gap (TV rights and Adidas money won’t be enough). In top of them we’ll sell De Gea to Madrid, Mata to Valencia or Atletico, Van Persie will go back to Arsenal, the difficulty with not been in CL will make that we’ll keep our bullets like Evans, Smalling and co, Rafael will leave and we’ll have to recruit a mid-table right back for a fortune, we’ll do the same for a central defender, we’ll go for Vlaar or Mexes who are all free this summer I guess, we’ll have to break the bank to add a good midfielder like Schneiderlein, or will get Cabaye, Delph , Mc Carthy or Nigel De Jong in order to complete Carrick, Blind and Herrera… Van Gall will try to persuade one or two Dutch players to come like Depay… And don’t forget that the likes of Di Maria will not spend another year here without Champions League. He’ll do his upmost to go to Paris, he will beg City or Chelsea to buy him, and it’ll not be any swap deal because the likes of Thiago Silva, Bale and co won’t join us without Champions League… So what…. A mid table team we will be, a poor group of players with few top players if not, and we’ll struggle again and again…. He will not even go for some terrific and exciting young players like Fekir or Dybala, because they’ll all seek for Champions League football

So do you genuinely believe all that?

 

[Adebesi]

So do you genuinely believe all that?

I dont believe it but it is a fairly good summary of my fears.

To shine a bit of light on it and make it less scary I would emphasise that we hold all the cards when it comes to Di Maria, he cant force an exit so unless someone makes an offer that makes sense to us (and we have other options willing to come in as his replacement) we dont have to sell him. How much comfort we can draw from that I dont know.

No way are we going to get into a death spiral of player sales because we lose out on the CL for another year. We are more comfortable than that, financially. The big problem with missing out on the CL is the caliber of player we are able to bring in this summer is lower. Or the cost of bringing those players is higher which adds to the increasing strain of our finances. Still not flashing red, but getting worse.

Every year we are out of the CL the more we look like a club in decline. The more we look like a club in decline, the less players want to come here and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Im not saying it will all happen but we need to avoid the sense of entitlement and complacency that says, its OK, we are the richest club in the land, we have history, FFP works in our favour, everything is going to be OK. Life doesnt work like that. Even great empires crumble.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I'm still trying to come up with one thing he's done in his time in charge that I've been impressed with.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I dont believe it but it is a fairly good summary of my fears.

I think there would be major structural changes at the club before we ever got to that kind of situation (for a start Woodward would have his P45 before we get deemed to be a regular mid-table club.

The points he raises through his fears and the previous point made by yourself saying we will end up like Liverpool in the pre-Sugar Daddy era, fails to take into account how important wages and how football is much more globalised now. Even without Champions League football we can attract a far higher calibre of player than Liverpool could before and still can. I have worries about the side as well but there are a few things off the pitch still in our favour.

 

[Chaky_Best]

So do you genuinely believe all that?

I’m afraid of that. LVG is only showing is incapacity since 8 months to run the team, to have results and to make the best player the better player. It’s continuously insane that your keeper is your best player, and it’s the same week after week.

I’m afraid that without Champions League and the Financial requirements, we need to be more drastic than it was, and the argument “we’re not in Champions League this year only” will not work to recruit top players.

In order to get back to the top 4 (assuming we’re not), we’ll have to have better players than Ars and Pool, and even Spurs and co next year…. And we all know that we need at least 5 new players to compete next year. Do you think that we will have 5 top players next year without CL for the second year in a row ?

It would be massive if we can keep De Gea and Di Maria in this context, we can offload two or three but recruiting the players we need to get back to the top, only Champions League football can give us that.

 

[imperi]

We were poor and also being poor for the past year doesn't excuse that

Maybe not, but it should put things into perspective that we aren't the undefeatable juggernaut anymore for a certain amount of time and expecting us to be is simply unrealistic. When I see us play I think we are still going forward and think Louis still is the man to go for.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I’m afraid of that. LVG is only showing is incapacity since 8 months to run the team, to have results and to make the best player the better player. It’s continuously insane that your keeper is your best player, and it’s the same week after week.

I’m afraid that without Champions League and the Financial requirements, we need to be more drastic than it was, and the argument “we’re not in Champions League this year only” will not work to recruit top players.

In order to get back to the top 4 (assuming we’re not), we’ll have to have better players than Ars and Pool, and even Spurs and co next year…. And we all know that we need at least 5 new players to compete next year. Do you think that we will have 5 top players next year without CL for the second year in a row ?

It would be massive if we can keep De Gea and Di Maria in this context, we can offload two or three but recruiting the players we need to get back to the top, only Champions League football can give us that.

Honestly at this stage I can't see Van Gaal staying at United beyond this season. Like it or not the current set up is a bit cut throat. Do I see us being able to sign 5 top players? Sure depending on who the manager selects, the financial requirements aren't as dire as you think and we will always have FFP to thank for some help.

 

[Adebesi]

I think there would be major structural changes at the club before we ever got to that kind of situation (for a start Woodward would have his P45 before we get deemed to be a regular mid-table club.

The points he raises through his fears and the previous point made by yourself saying we will end up like Liverpool in the pre-Sugar Daddy era, fails to take into account how important wages and how football is much more globalised now. Even without Champions League football we can attract a far higher calibre of player than Liverpool could before and still can. I have worries about the side as well but there are a few things off the pitch still in our favour.

I never said we WOULD end up like Liverpool. I said we COULD end up like Liverpool.

As I said in my edit above (I should have made a new post I didnt realise I was going to write so much) I think people are a little complacent about the money. "We are rich, nothing can happen to us."

We are rich and it is a huge advantage. But it doesnt make us bulletproof. And I do think football works in cycles and those cycles are driven by more than just money.

But yes, if I had to put money on it i wouldnt bet we are going to end up like Liverpool. Im not saying its the likely outcome.

 

[Balu]

I've got a mate who is German and a Bayern fan. He said what we're like now reminds him of Bayern's second season under Van Gaal when it all fell apart. Maybe @Balu has a view?

It's different than our 2nd season. It looks more like he's still in the first 5 months of our first season, looking for a fitting formation, a starting XI that he likes and wants to use and build on. It just hasn't happened yet, maybe it never will. Underrating the league, his signings (Braafheid, Pranjic) maybe not being good enough for the step up, failure to use some of the club's big money signings effectively (Gomez, Tymoshchuk) were all problems in our first season. We turned it around in December though, when Schweinsteiger started to excel in midfield and Robben returned from injury. It gave van Gaal the players he needed to form the team.

Our 2nd season was more about not changing anything once the previously well working tactics lead to problems and other teams started to exploit the flaws consistently. That and refusing to buy new players to strengthen the squad further and picking stupid and unnecessary fights with everyone because of his arrogance were his main problems in the 2nd season.

 

[Jaytay]

It's not that Ferguson couldn't be replaced after he left. It's the fact that we made the wrong appointment. Moyes should have never been appointed, he was a mediocre and average signing. The majority of fans knew deep down inside that he wasn't right for the club but got behind him because of SAF.

Ancelotti, Mourinho, Guardiola, Klopp, Pellegrini, Simeone are all attached to other clubs. Basically Van Gaal was the only manager available. If all those managers above were available we wouldn't want Van Gaal and neither would Woodward.

So we have hired a second manager who is not the best but the best we could get.

Now had we appointed someone elite from the very beginning instead of Moyes we wouldn't be in this predicament.

 

[Bwuk]

We are slowly but surely becoming Liverpool from 09/10 onwards. Hodgson was as bad as Moyes, and Van Gaal has made some stupid decisions.

In a strange way, I almost hope we don't get top 4 so we get rid of this pretender.

 

[holyland red]

The players he "lost" are either not at the club anymore or should be shipped in the summer. He had every chance to improve on his first season, during which he gave chances to players who did not deserve it, if he was given time to bring in his own players. The transition period he was given charge of was obviously going to involve a struggle for authority over aging primma donnas. None of those were a Messy we couldn't do without, as we can clearly see now.

Don't disagree with most of that. Although I do think he lost some players that are here to stay.

at the Messy bit... we do have some of these still...

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I never said we WOULD end up like Liverpool. I said we COULD end up like Liverpool.

As I said in my edit above (I should have made a new post I didnt realise I was going to write so much) I think people are a little complacent about the money. "We are rich, nothing can happen to us."

We are rich and it is a huge advantage. But it doesnt make us bulletproof. And I do think football works in cycles and those cycles are driven by more than just money.

But yes, if I had to put money on it i wouldnt bet we are going to end up like Liverpool. Im not saying its the likely outcome.

Fair enough, then yeah it's a fair point. If we keep messing things up at the top then yeah we could face the same cycle as Liverpool. However we should eventually get it right as it's difficult to waste £150m every year.

I disagree about the fact that football works in cycles, I think the period of one club dominating was over once the sugar daddies came in and Champions League football concentrated wealth to a few clubs in each country.

 

[Adebesi]

Now had we appointed someone elite from the very beginning instead of Moyes we wouldn't be in this predicament.

Reminds me of that story about SAF and Guardiola in a restaurant in New York, Guardiola not realising he was being offered a job because he couldnt understand what SAF was saying.

Such fine margins.