United under LvG: verdict so far!

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Judge Red said:
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Humiliated by lower league opposition in the League Cup.

Struggled past lower league opposition in the FA Cup, needing a replay against a League 2 side, before being knocked out at home.

Now could end up failing to improve on last year's league position.

And the style of football is dire.

It's officially as bad as it was under Moyes right now.
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Its not though and that says a lot.
 
imperi said:
Maybe not, but it should put things into perspective that we aren't the undefeatable juggernaut anymore for a certain amount of time and expecting us to be is simply unrealistic. When I see us play I think we are still going forward and think Louis still is the man to go for.
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We've gone slightly forward, but we've used every resource we possibly could have done to make that happen. Even Moyes would have gone slightly forward with the investment we pumped in this summer
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Why sack him? Are we so sure it'd be any different with any other manager at the helm? There's noway of knowing for sure, but I'd suggest it would make more sense to give van Gaal at least another season. What if Ancelotti comes in and we're still shite? Then what? Another wasted year of a team adapting to a new philosophy and performing poorly. The manager isn't the significant issue, for me, it's the players and their lack of fight for Manchester United. They look defeated half the time, and have for over a season now too.
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wouldn't you look defeated too if you had to play under such stifling and boring tactics? You had good players - but you're not playing them properly. Any team with Mata, Rooney, Di Maria, Herrera etc should be playing flowing football - instead you play Fellaini in the ACM role...
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Well no it's not because we're currently fourth.
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Only four points off 7th though. With the upcoming fixtures I can't see us staying where we are. However I wouldn't swap LVG for Moyes, I didn't have any faith at all in him. But I'm disappointed with LVG's failure to get the team playing with some consistent style with only two months left. He's created he own problems IMO.
 
Coxy said:
wouldn't you look defeated too if you had to play under such stifling and boring tactics? You had good players - but you're not playing them properly. Any team with Mata, Rooney, Di Maria, Herrera etc should be playing flowing football - instead you play Fellaini in the ACM role...
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It is ridiculous when you put it that way. Remember how many forum members were licking their lips with anticipation at the end of last summer? Even with a dodgy defence we were expected to be playing some exciting stuff going forward, so much for that. We're tedious to watch.
 
I've faith in Louis but that's mainly because of his past achievements. However, I do worry that:

*He's usually been able to improve things at his previous clubs because he had more technical, talented & football-savvy players to work with than he has at United.

*Non-disruptive and hard-working players who follow instructions (Valencia, for example) keep their places in LVG's sides regardless of their actual abilities.

*He has a mindset not dissimilar to Wenger's, in that he'll consider any improvement in his players to be a feather in his cap...rather than bin those players who require so much work in order to improve. I suspect that, like Arsene, LVG takes too much satisfaction in the 'project' side of things. This might lead him to keep players around who simply aren't good enough considering the ambitions the club has.

There's more, but I'm beginning to bore even myself.
 
In the grand scheme of things, we're shite. No CL football to contend with, the league on the whole being poor, a midfield that doesn't consist of Cleverley and Carrick and players like Di Maria and Falcao. We take 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
 
For the first time this season I have that sinking feeling like I did before Moyes went. It's going to be hard to install confidence in the group after that loss. My only thought is to give matches to players like Rafael, Falcao, Mata to give the side something new because the current crop in their places just won't get the job done.
 
Adebesi said:
Maybe. History is littered with people thinking the times they lived in were different from the times that came before, that some kind of paradigm shift had changed the rules. Sometimes they were right, more often they were wrong. Only hindsight will tell us which applies here.
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I'm really liking the historical, quasi-biblical, philosophical leaning you're on today. It's a similar lens that I tend to look through (not sure that's good news for you...), and it makes this period as a Utd fan at least somewhat more bearable...

These are fascinating times we're in right now as a club, with lots of historical and societal overtones.

I remember very clearly when SAF retired noting that what he'd created was essentially a cult of personality, and historically, when the 'leader' leaves such a post, a vacuum is created by their absence.

The only way to avoid this is to replace them with a similarly huge personality, in our case the only person who was capable of doing that (and enjoying having such focus put upon them) was Jose, but that didn't happen and so the vacuum started spinning...

It ate Moyes, and it's looking increasingly likely that Van Gaal too is beginning to disappear into it.

If Van Gaal's capitulation continues (and it is a capitulation), I really feel that a rising manager is the answer, rather than a plateauing manager (Moyes) or a 'risen' manager (LvG).

We need someone who comes from the modern game and who, if things go well, can give us a good 10 years or so.
 
JUPITER said:
I'm really liking the historical, quasi-biblical, philosophical leaning you're on today. It's a similar lens that I tend to look through (not sure that's good news for you...), and it makes this period as a Utd fan at least somewhat more bearable...

These are fascinating times we're in right now as a club, with lots of historical and societal overtones.

I remember very clearly when SAF retired noting that what he'd created was essentially a cult of personality, and historically, when the 'leader' leaves such a post, a vacuum is created by their absence.

The only way to avoid this is to replace them with a similarly huge personality, in our case the only person who was capable of doing that (and enjoying having such focus put upon them) was Jose, but that didn't happen and so the vacuum started spinning...

It ate Moyes, and it's looking increasingly likely that Van Gaal too is beginning to disappear into it.

If Van Gaal's capitulation continues (and it is a capitulation), I really feel that a rising manager is the answer, rather than a plateauing manager (Moyes) or a 'risen' manager (LvG).

We need someone who comes from the modern game and who, if things go well, can give us a good 10 years or so.
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Simeone Simeone Simeone Simeone Simeone Simeone!
 
His changes during the games are usually spot on, but he fecked it up last night.

Taking Herrera instead of Blind, who was shocking in the first half, resulted in a deep CM that had problem connecting with our attack, especially since our no.10 (Fellaini) was basically playing like a striker and never came deep to connect the midfield to the attack.

Also, taking Shaw off and moving the CBs around really fecked up our organisation at the back.
 
I still just can't see past the defence. It's just shocking. Smalling should just leave. He's an embarassment (I have fellas at Saturday football who have more composure than that idiot) and I don't blame Van Gaal at all for panicking with how our defence was in the first half.

I actually thought the performance was pretty good in terms of every other area all in all. Could have easily been a comfortable victory.
 
JUPITER said:
I'm really liking the historical, quasi-biblical, philosophical leaning you're on today. It's a similar lens that I tend to look through (not sure that's good news for you...), and it makes this period as a Utd fan at least somewhat more bearable...

These are fascinating times we're in right now as a club, with lots of historical and societal overtones.

I remember very clearly when SAF retired noting that what he'd created was essentially a cult of personality, and historically, when the 'leader' leaves such a post, a vacuum is created by their absence.

The only way to avoid this is to replace them with a similarly huge personality, in our case the only person who was capable of doing that (and enjoying having such focus put upon them) was Jose, but that didn't happen and so the vacuum started spinning...

It ate Moyes, and it's looking increasingly likely that Van Gaal too is beginning to disappear into it.

If Van Gaal's capitulation continues (and it is a capitulation), I really feel that a rising manager is the answer, rather than a plateauing manager (Moyes) or a 'risen' manager (LvG).

We need someone who comes from the modern game and who, if things go well, can give us a good 10 years or so.
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Cheers mate. And yes, definitely. I think a lot of people understood the bit in bold, or some version of it. Everyone knew things were going to be really tough. Its a different thing knowing it and actually living through it though. Being prepared for it, in the sense of expecting it, doesnt seem to make it any easier.
 
It's his mistakes that are so telling to me. That is what gives me pause about keeping him. Herrera, while not always giving a 10 performance, has a CLEAR impact on the team and he was shunned for most of the season so far and yesterday subbed off during halftime. Why is Luke Shaw starting if he is incapable of finishing a full 90? The decision making from him leads me to believe that no matter who he buys in the summer there is no guarantee they will be deployed in their best position. Just play players in their best position for a start.

Another thing is that he over compensates for past performances instead of preparing for the next opponent. If we are outmuscled than the next game he is going to start Fellaini no matter who the opponent is. I also hate his preferential treatment. Yesterday if any of the midfielders needed to come off at half time it was Blind. Not Herrera. The way DiMaria was flopping around Fergie would have been out of his seat telling him to move the ball quicker and stop inviting the attention or get up off the floor.

At this point, there are certain players who know they won't be dropped and they are playing like it. He doesn't seem to have it in him to make the tough decisions. And why aren't our players getting better with basic technical skills?
 
Why are people still hoping a manager will give us 10 years or so. Is just doesn't happen anymore, at any level of football, regardless of how successful you are. Fergie and Wenger will be the last examples. 4 years will be a very long spell for any manager.
 
For me its not about having faith or not in LvG,what i like and believe is that there wont be middle ground with him.I know that people like me would like top 4 this season but i rather take in 3 years 2x 7th and 1st then 3x 2nd/3rd/4th. He will stick to his ways no matter what,which is good,it can lead him to be sacked or he will turn us with summer additions into title winning squad. At least thats what i believe.
 
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rooney1905 said:
It's his mistakes that are so telling to me. That is what gives me pause about keeping him. Herrera, while not always giving a 10 performance, has a CLEAR impact on the team and he was shunned for most of the season so far and yesterday subbed off during halftime. Why is Luke Shaw starting if he is incapable of finishing a full 90? The decision making from him leads me to believe that no matter who he buys in the summer there is no guarantee they will be deployed in their best position. Just play players in their best position for a start.

Another thing is that he over compensates for past performances instead of preparing for the next opponent. If we are outmuscled than the next game he is going to start Fellaini no matter who the opponent is. I also hate his preferential treatment. Yesterday if any of the midfielders needed to come off at half time it was Blind. Not Herrera. The way DiMaria was flopping around Fergie would have been out of his seat telling him to move the ball quicker and stop inviting the attention or get up off the floor.

At this point, there are certain players who know they won't be dropped and they are playing like it. He doesn't seem to have it in him to make the tough decisions. And why aren't our players getting better with basic technical skills?
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This.
 
lem8sh said:
I've said it before but regardless of who the manager is the squad just isn't good enough. Absolutely teaming with mediocrity.
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Apparently our worst midfielders are Herrera and Mata - normally that would be a good sign.

My problem is that I enjoyed the first half. I really did, there was a bit of life about us, a bit of pace. A proper match was underway. We still had most of the possession but we were trying to get somewhere and so were Arsenal. For 45 minutes I actually thought I was looking at progress, even at a team who might play better against teams who were playing to win (a good omen for our run-in).

However LvG has a fundamentally different view, so he needed to change things at halftime(I think he'd say more controlled, I'd say slower more predictable). The change I saw in the second half was something I found rather depressing, even before the goal.

I still have this glimmer of hope that it may all just click, but it's getter harder to believe.
 
jojojo said:
Apparently our worst midfielders are Herrera and Mata - normally that would be a good sign.

My problem is that I enjoyed the first half. I really did, there was a bit of life about us, a bit of pace. A proper match was underway. We still had most of the possession but we were trying to get somewhere and so were Arsenal. For 45 minutes I actually thought I was looking at progress, even at a team who might play better against teams who were playing to win (a good omen for our run-in).

However LvG has a fundamentally different view, so he needed to change things at halftime(I think he'd say more controlled, I'd say slower more predictable). The change I saw in the second half was something I found rather depressing, even before the goal.

I still have this glimmer of hope that it may all just click, but it's getter harder to believe.
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100 per cent agree with the bold text, and I would add I felt depressed from the start of the second half even before Arsenal scored because I knew it was coming. You cannot invite that level of pressure onto you when you're facing a side with Alexis, Cazorla, Ozil etc. and not expect to give away a goal. Plus, with two holding players in front of the back four I had no hope for us building any real attacks. I was sadly proved right about both things.

I'm not sure why you have hope that it will click. As you have pointed out what Van Gaal sees as the team clicking is boring, slow, 'control'. The opposite of the fast flowing, end to end stuff we saw in the first half last night. What we want to see is the opposite of what Van Gaal wants to see. I don't understand why you think he's going to undergo a road to Damascus style conversion and suddenly decide to throw caution to the wind, especially after opting not to do so in our biggest game yet this season.

It was last March that it all fell apart for Moyes when we lost to Liverpool and City in close succession. If we fail to beat Spurs and then lose to the Scousers the week after I'm officially joining the Van Gaal out brigade.
 
Jaytay said:
Our defence is 3rd the best in the league. Don't understand why our defence is getting it in the neck.
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Our general play is struggling because LVG has to compensate for our weak defence. He does, and we don't concede that much, but it's still awful individually and not having enough quality defenders paradoxically hurts our attack more than it hurts our defence.

So now, our defence is not 3rd best in the league. Our defensive record is.
 
I wonder how Moyes would be doing if he had been given a second season. Maybe better. Not that I rate Moyes.

LVG is starting to look like an arrogant oaf and not changing the make up of the team after our recent poor run is really annoying.
 
As a few others have said, I think if a manager of LVG's ability is struggling to get the best out of this team, then I think we are in real trouble. There really aren't a whole lot of other managers with more experience and a better CV than him - and the ones that are 'better' aren't readily available at the moment.

We need to stick with him and let him get another summer of further rebuilding the current squad, which quite frankly is full of too many mediocre players.
 
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Rooney should be our starting striker. He's being shuffled around just to fit other players who are playing well below their level.

I can see improvements in the likes of Smalling and Jones when they carry the ball forward and they're not nearly as nervous as they used to be. That being said, do any of the top teams in Europe have starting CBs as poor as those two and Johnny Evans? Nah.

We can talk tactics til we're blue in the face. We can talk about philosophy. But the world class attacking players we have need to get a grip and start feckin playing. We've started games with the likes of Rooney, Mata, RVP, Falcao and Di Maria and barely created a chance. That's just unacceptable. Di Maria should be skinning people for fun. Instead, he's being out-muscled and dispossessed by the likes of Routledge ffs. His confidence is shot, as is Falcao's. Stick them in the reserves, let them get a hat-trick and boost their morale. Playing them while they're so awful is just making them worse.

Tell Januzaj to pass it or else he's dropped.

Tell Blind to stop shitting himself and start bossing the game.

Herrera should be third on the team sheet after DDG and Rooney every week.

Sell Young and Valencia first chance we get. They're not fooling anyone.
 
If he persists with this 'strategy' of slow build up play, knocking around the back for for 30 seconds then ponderously moving the ball forward whilst giving the opposition time to regroup, I want him gone.
He is famously stubborn, so I think I'll want him gone even more when we see more of the same in the next few weeks.
People moaned last year about Moyes not having a defined strategy to games, or if he did have one it was get to the byline and cross it. Patently this is a poor strategy. Likewise with LVG, this 'control' he seems to hold in such high esteem is facking WRONG. We are reduced to lumping it up to the big man up front. Really? £150m spent and we are Wimbledon c. 1985.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
LVG didnt tell him to have a bad first touch, not to run behind defenses, to fluff his chances, to be slow and generally out of form.
He won a penalty vs sunderland and suddenly its all good?
THe signal he got is, sorry you're out of form and you're not good enough right now to start.
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Where did I say that "it's all good" because he won a penalty?

At that point, with the transfer window closed, with RVP injured and Rooney required in midfield he had little option but to pick him. He didnt play well, and that's fine, but the moment he does something decent - which might actually reinvigorate him in the game he gets the hook. What's to be lost in that situation by leaving him on for 10 minutes to see what happens? He might feel a bit more confident, might even bag a goal and get a bit more confidence. Instead he's pulled immediately - making it obvious given that h'es just won the pen and makes him feel like a clown.

He's not playing well - that's a fact, and it is not down to LVG. But his man managment is bizarre and along with seemingly random tactical decisions is unlikely to help the situation. Bringing players off at half time last night who had played pretty well and hadnt done anything wrong, in a massive game, isnt likely to inspire those players and get them on his side.

Usually managers pick their best team and a player therefore knows if he plays well, he's likely to keep his place. If not he gets dropped. Everyone knows where they are and frankly a lot of players may not be intelligent or wise enough to understand that a decision might be made for reasons other than them not playing well.

What we have is a situation where if you play well you might keep your place, or get moved to another position, or get dropped for an unknown period because he wants to tinker with the formation. The players look nervous and uncertain, playing easy back passes (to fit with "possession football") rather than look forward. Nobody looks confident and most look petrified to make a mistake. Worse, the players don't seem to understand what he's asking them to do. That isnt going to lead to happy and confident players, so he has to take some responsibility when players who have done well at other clubs, and/or under other managers don't perform.
 
pseudo_canadian said:
As a few others have said, I think if a manager of LVG's ability is struggling to get the best out of this team, then I think we are in real trouble. There really aren't a whole lot of other managers with more experience and a better CV than him - and the ones that are 'better' aren't readily available at the moment.

We need to stick with him and let him get another summer of further rebuilding the current squad, which quite frankly is full of too many mediocre players.
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LVG is too set in his ways now. The players we have can't play his brand of football and he can't play the brand of football these players did under Fergie.
 
The Purley King said:
If he persists with this 'strategy' of slow build up play, knocking around the back for for 30 seconds then ponderously moving the ball forward whilst giving the opposition time to regroup, I want him gone.
He is famously stubborn, so I think I'll want him gone even more when we see more of the same in the next few weeks.
People moaned last year about Moyes not having a defined strategy to games, or if he did have one it was get to the byline and cross it. Patently this is a poor strategy. Likewise with LVG, this 'control' he seems to hold in such high esteem is facking WRONG. We are reduced to lumping it up to the big man up front. Really? £150m spent and we are Wimbledon c. 1985.
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This slow build up, possession play is fine if you have the players to unlock a defence (i.e. Barcelona under Guardiola). We don't - but we do have some pace, and like most decent modern sides we should be trying to get in behind teams and play on the break.

Moyes got criticised for his gameplan of slinging it wide and looking to get it in - perhaps fairly, and was accused of being one dimensional, but at least in doing that we were trying to stretch the game and inject some pace into it. Di Maria in a system like that would get acres of room and might actually be able to be a threat for a full 90 minutes.

Van Gaal needs to realise that 90% of teams in the PL will just sit all day long and allow you to pass the ball in front of them, because a point against one of the big sides is a decent result.
 
Have we had the dreaded, 'you don't know what you're doing chant' yet? I wouldn't want to be the fan who started that chant if LvG actually saw you do it.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Why sack him? Are we so sure it'd be any different with any other manager at the helm? There's noway of knowing for sure, but I'd suggest it would make more sense to give van Gaal at least another season. What if Ancelotti comes in and we're still shite? Then what? Another wasted year of a team adapting to a new philosophy and performing poorly. The manager isn't the significant issue, for me, it's the players and their lack of fight for Manchester United. They look defeated half the time, and have for over a season now too.
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And what if Van Gaal spends bucket loads of cash, we're still awful and the next manager hasnt got the funds he needs until umpteen overpaid and unsuitable players are moved on? Based on what he's done so far can he be trusted to spend that money? He's brought players in (or at least ratified purchases) and doesnt seem to know what to do with them.

I sympathise with the players here to be fair. As I said above, they look frightened to make a mistake and unsure abut what they're doing. A lot are moved around into various different positions week in and week out, and a lot simply just can't do the jobs they are being asked to do.
 
RedRover said:
And what if Van Gaal spends bucket loads of cash, we're still awful and the next manager hasnt got the funds he needs until umpteen overpaid and unsuitable players are moved on? Based on what he's done so far can he be trusted to spend that money? He's brought players in (or at least ratified purchases) and doesnt seem to know what to do with them.

I sympathise with the players here to be fair. As I said above, they look frightened to make a mistake and unsure abut what they're doing. A lot are moved around into various different positions week in and week out, and a lot simply just can't do the jobs they are being asked to do.
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They definitely look confused. Herrera is getting messages from all sorts of coaching staff, before the game, after the game, his head must be spinning. Then has Giggs yelling at him. I think there is a lot of confused messages being passed to the players. It isn't good.
 
RedRover said:
I sympathise with the players here to be fair. As I said above, they look frightened to make a mistake and unsure abut what they're doing.
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But this has been a relatively longstanding issue though, not just a Moyes/Van Gaal problem: regardless of who the manager happens to be and what his style is, the players need little to no encouragement to play safe, to swiftly pass (responsibility) to a teammate. I'm not claiming that most of our players are gutless; I'm claiming they lack the requisite technical ability to beat opponents with pure skill.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
What?
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I don't know what happened with your quote, but people said Giggs was yelling at him last night. I have noticed him looking more and more worried when coaches are bombarding him with more and more instructions game after game. He seems an intelligent lad, but maybe they are trying to over coach him. This could be happening with the others as well.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I don't know what happened with your quote, but people said Giggs was yelling at him last night. I have noticed him looking more and more worried when coaches are bombarding him with more and more instructions game after game. He seems an intelligent lad, but maybe they are trying to over coach him. This could be happening with the others as well.
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Maybe they werent satisfied with sthing. I'm reading in Herrera thread Giggs was yelling at him to stay close to Cazorla.
 
Blue always red said:
LVG is too set in his ways now. The players we have can't play his brand of football and he can't play the brand of football these players did under Fergie.
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Most of the current crop couldn't play Fergie's "brand of football" under Fergie.

Rooney, Carrick and RvP (at a push, Rafael too, although Fergie often preferred other players to him at rightback) are the only players who really excelled in Fergie's last few years in charge and two of them are fast approaching their mid thirties.
 
SteveJ said:
But this has been a relatively longstanding issue though, not just a Moyes/Van Gaal problem: regardless of who the manager happens to be and what his style is, the players need little to no encouragement to play safe, to swiftly pass (responsibility) to a teammate. I'm not claiming that most of our players are gutless; I'm claiming they lack the requisite technical ability to beat opponents with pure skill.
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If it is going back to the SAF days as well Steve, maybe those are the players who need to be ditched. I don't think they are being encouraged to play risky football, hence the 2nd half last night. However sometimes it's the teams who take a risk who will succeed.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
Maybe they werent satisfied with sthing. I'm reading in Herrera thread Giggs was yelling at him to stay close to Cazorla.
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That was it. Someone said they felt it should have been Fellaini doing that job. I am not great on who should be marking who tbh. However removing Herrera made us slow and detached in midfield.
 
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