I think it's pretty obvious now that there are bigger issues ingrained within the club than the manager. I don't think the players are up to it at all, half of them are cowards and the other half just purely aren't good enough. Obviously there's some exceptions, but I still think the club is in a pretty bad way right now in terms of players.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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Maybe true but that doesnt mean Herrera should be excused of giving instructions to.
People complained about LVG just sitting, now Giggs gave some instructions that's a problem.
I don't mind Giggs being on the touchline at all. However I worry that too many of the coaches are having an imput with the same player. If they are explaining a situation differently each time it could be leading to real confusion.
The worrying thing is, the only new signing from the summer that didn't play yesterday was Falcao.
Herrera, Shaw, Rojo, Blind and Di Maria all played.
This is his first season at the club. First season in the PL and its going as well as anyone realistic associated with the club could expect. We are a point from Arsenal in third and 5 off city, both of which are years ahead on the "team build" curve. The next 10 games won't define us or our future and talk like that is over the top nonsense. We'll still attract the players needed to complete the build. People forget how quickly things can come together for teams with afew key additions.
I would agree with that, it's a pretty fair assessment. The squad is subpar.
I think you can put the players into two categories: Players who are quality but are woefully underperforming, and players who simply aren't good enough to be at a club like Manchester United. Regardless, I think the players have really let us down at times this season, just like last year. I'm not saying LVG is free of blame, but the players have not been pulling their weight that much.
It might take a couple more seasons for it all to come together, we will be signing more players this coming summer and ditching some of the SAF brigade. Then they will need to settle and that might not be the end of the rebuild.
The good thing is they all played well in the most part and its obvious what needs to change to elevate us above a team who sit above us in the table and was gifted the winner in an evenly fought contest.
I worry that we are overrating the improvement in the likes of Fellaini/Young/Valencia, are they really that much better or were they that bad last season. There are times you can see Ashley reverting back to his usual inconsistant self.
The truth is our squad is still unbalanced and most importantly are playing without any confidence. I don't think that you can put that down solely to the management tbh. We underestimate having all the leaders leave in one go - but it's important. Think about it, Valencia, Smalling etc all played with Vidic, Rio, Patrice - all big personalities that they could take their cues from. Now there on their own basically, and they just don't have the mentality to cope with the situation. They are trying, even with the mistakes their making, but you can't change people's personalities.
Van Gaal has tried people in different positions and different formations, but it's not working. Even when players are in their natural position, it's not quite clicking. It's a bigger problem, they just are not coping very well with this pressure. Yes they're spoilt football players but they are still human. Reading shit everyday in the papers as well does not help.
I wish this top four thing was not a priority - it isn't for me personally - but I understand we have a debt to service, wages to pay, sponsors to keep happy and owners who are in it to make a profit. That's a lot of pressure for the manager and players. There are too many outside influences at the club and it makes everything harder. Wish the manager and players could be given assurance that look, do the best you can and don't worry about top four this season. Ignore the press, pundits and ex-players - just concentrate on your job. Speak honestly with the manager and see how you can improve. Just work hard so we start the next season better. And give the manager this summer to let some people go and then strengthen our defence (first and foremost). I personally think this would be the best solution but of course I'm not in charge of the money.
Van Gaal has tried people in different positions and different formations, but it's not working. Even when players are in their natural position, it's not quite clicking. It's a bigger problem, they just are not coping very well with this pressure. Yes they're spoilt football players but they are still human. Reading shit everyday in the papers as well does not help.
I wish this top four thing was not a priority - it isn't for me personally - but I understand we have a debt to service, wages to pay, sponsors to keep happy and owners who are in it to make a profit. That's a lot of pressure for the manager and players. There are too many outside influences at the club and it makes everything harder. Wish the manager and players could be given assurance that look, do the best you can and don't worry about top four this season. Ignore the press, pundits and ex-players - just concentrate on your job. Speak honestly with the manager and see how you can improve. Just work hard so we start the next season better. And give the manager this summer to let some people go and then strengthen our defence (first and foremost). I personally think this would be the best solution but of course I'm not in charge of the money.
That's one of our biggest problems, the players are a bunch of downbeat wimps half the time. They just don't exude any of the arrogance you need to compete at a top level.
That first half was one of best we have seen for a while, the 2nd half showed where the major deficiencies are. The defence needs a major overhaul, we need another CM to add power and numbers to the midfield. At least one winger. I don't think Adnan is ready yet. Also need at least one striker. The problem will be getting rid of the Jones/Evans type players and if anyone will want them or they will want to go to the standard of club that would want them?
I'm sure we can get buyers for Jones and Evans. Those two need to go - Evans especially. We need some tough bastards at the back, not wimps with no brain cells.
I may have got this totally wrong but, regarding the quiet and professional air about young players, is this just a sign of the times? We often read about, say, F1 drivers, snooker players and the like having 'dull' personalities compared to past participants, one eye on media-image etc...could it be that we in particular are suffering from what is simply changing times in pro sport? 'Leaders', especially amongst British sportsmen & women, seem increasingly a thing of the past; the old idea of someone (SAF? Evra?) barking out orders or effectively scaring sportspeople into action appears outdated. We've historically looked to sign players with the right mentality...but perhaps nowadays this only equates to signing submissive personalities. Passion alone doesn't really work, or translate, to the new breed of successful sportsperson, and that's not always their fault.
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Well Rojo/Jones/Evans/Smalling appear to have one brain between them. Unfortunately it is Rojo who has it.
I've been extremely critical of Evans but he has looked fairly decent of late, seems to be the only organiser we have at the back.
Agreed.The other one is Shaw,honestly he is so simple. But I give him a pass because he's so young and obviously talented.
Probably, but he's not consistently decent is he? That's the other problem with our lot, lack of consistency. Sigh..
Fair point, it's sometimes difficult to make a definitive statement on any of defenders because they always get injured as well.
Or get red cards
The manager can clearly do better work but a lot of the players are simply mid table types. To win leagues you usually need the best striker, midfielder and at least one top class centre half and a great keeper. Chelsea currently have this and in all our title winning teams we met these requirements even if sometimes we didn't always play great football.
We have probably the best keeper in the world and guaranteed goals in Rooney apart from that though we have some very good and equally very mediocre players. Add to that the constant chopping and changing, a lot of injuries and a manager who seems to have no idea how to get the best out of his players has all equated to the mess we have witnessed in 95% of our games this season.
We need in my opinion another 4 top class players who will go straight into the first team (RB, CB, DM, CM). Then we need a consistent playing style that suits the players and not the managers own ego if we are to ever challenge again for the title or CL in foreseeable future.
Jones, Evans, Fellaini, Valencia for me need to 100% go. Along with our current Loaned out players.
Rafael and Mata don't seem favored by van Gaal at all so they maybe get sold. I also think that us not getting CL this season will sway De Gea' contract decision. All in all probably van Gaals toughest job ever!
We have probably the best keeper in the world and guaranteed goals in Rooney apart from that though we have some very good and equally very mediocre players. Add to that the constant chopping and changing, a lot of injuries and a manager who seems to have no idea how to get the best out of his players has all equated to the mess we have witnessed in 95% of our games this season.
We need in my opinion another 4 top class players who will go straight into the first team (RB, CB, DM, CM). Then we need a consistent playing style that suits the players and not the managers own ego if we are to ever challenge again for the title or CL in foreseeable future.
Jones, Evans, Fellaini, Valencia for me need to 100% go. Along with our current Loaned out players.
Rafael and Mata don't seem favored by van Gaal at all so they maybe get sold. I also think that us not getting CL this season will sway De Gea' contract decision. All in all probably van Gaals toughest job ever!
I think people would be very surprised if you added a select few great players to our team how strong both our starting eleven and bench would become. Another window, another truckload of cash spent on remedying the obvious flaws and we're gonna be there of there abouts in the coming
seasons. I think catastophyitus is starting to infect the majority on here.
Could not their cowardice as you put it, be attributed to the mentality of the manager?
Van Gaal can make no claim to a lack of support from the board since his arrival. whereas Fergie and arguably Moyes got more out of lesser resources. His judgement can not only be questioned with regard to purchases but those he has moved on. The majority of the playing staff are struggling to even meet previous standards let alone surpass such, what's to say that the outcome will be any different next season?
Bloody hell never heard that before! But agree with your sentiment overall...I don't know the club gave Van Gaal a lot of support in the summer and he hasn't really shown anything this year in my view that be counted as a positive.
Because its natural to assume our manager will again invest heavily and now he knows exactly where the holes are in our team.
Anything other than this train of thought is just not logical.
Van Gaal is not a coward - call him anything else but he's not a coward. And Moyes got more out of his resources at Everton - not United. Let's not rewrite history here because you're pissed off with LVG.
All the negativity aside, our first half performance yesterday was one of our best this season. It's quite clear that Herrera is our best midfielder when it comes to setting up attacks and moving the ball forward and speed up play. We took him off and we looked like a different side, it's no coincidence. We really need to get going now and increase the speed in our play and run at the defenders. We have to get 4th, no excuses. Mata should be included for the next game as Fellaini is is not a number 10. And di Maria would he best to sit out a few games.
We should introduce "whiplash" for a few positions in the squad, meaning give other player a chance to perform there. Di Maria needs pressure, let him compete with januzaj and even pereira if needs be, they can't do much worse than him and it will drive him to do better.
We should introduce "whiplash" for a few positions in the squad, meaning give other player a chance to perform there. Di Maria needs pressure, let him compete with januzaj and even pereira if needs be, they can't do much worse than him and it will drive him to do better.
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Yeah and so did Smalling, Jones, Valencia, and Young. The new signings obviously need to step it up but there is so much dead weight in the lineup that it's no wonder we're struggling.
LVG has improved these players to a degree, but it's in baby steps and clearly not worth the trouble we're putting into it. We're trying to reteach Valencia, an experienced international, how to make a good cross FFS and Smalling and Jones how to handle a ball more confidently. Smalling and Jones in particular are looking to make technical improvements that should've been dealt with on the academy level and not when you're trying to qualify for Champions League. Young I'll admit is having a good season but he's nowhere near the quality we're looking for in a winger. It's actually pretty ridiculous that players of Valencia and Young's ineptitude have been allowed to stay with United for this long, when it's plain that they won't be enough to get us anywhere.
We've complained (with good reason TBF) about using players out of position but this has also exposed the one-dimensionality in a lot of our squad. Valencia is fast and strong but can't cross, is defensively dodgy, and shirks from taking players 1 v. 1. Di Maria is excellent with the ball at his feet on a run but his set pieces are shit to below average and he isn't much of a goal scorer. Shaw is very gifted defensively for a player of his age but isn't very good yet when trying to create on the wing. Carrick is solid defensively and can thread a ball but is slow and almost never goes forward.
So in a sense, we have a chunk of the squad who's in the SAF period of specialists that contribute to the greater good when what we need are players with multiple abilities. This hampers the more versatile players like Di Maria and Rooney who are on the receiving end of what everyone else is producing.
This is a very good comment. I also think LVG is trying to change the one-dimensional mindset of our squad, but it's a lost cause with some of our players. However, in the meantime, he has to make the best of what he's got. The reason I don't want LVG to get the sack is that I want him to implement a system from the youth upwards that cuts out all the one-dimensional crap and get our players to perfect the technical aspects of their game. This to me will serve us well in the long run. Remember, football is not just about one season. This one is painful and will probably get worse, but we need some structure at the club.
I definitely agree that we should stop comparing players to the ones in the past. It is a different time now. Players like Scholes and Keane for all their brilliance would be rarely playing as they would be serving bans left, right and centre.
How can you possibly say Moyes got more out of lesser resources? he took the same squad Fergie won the league with to 7th!
I struggle to think even a fan wouldn't have achieved the same
I dunno why people keep going on about Van Gaal not playing risky football. What's more riskier? Trying to attack with bodies forward like we have done in the past, or make our shite defence have most of the ball and keep passing it back to De Gea. As far as I can see, Van Gaal's way is much much riskier than the brand of football we are all asking for.
They may well do, but players - like anyone, in any job, are likely to function best when they have a clear idea of what they're doing, and when they know where they're at in terms of what is expected.
Perhaps our players lack the ability to fit into Van Gaal's system. If that's the case the manager (being unable at this stage to change the players) should come up with a system that gets the best out of what he has, rather than blaming the players in a system that doesn't look like its ever going to work and chopping and changing hoping that eventually it starts to work.
Teams function best when everyone has a job that they know how to do.
Frankly at the moment he seems clueless. He can't articulate this idea of a "philosophy", not does he seem to want to. It might sound clever to some but it means nothing without results. The fact is we have no regular side, no regular formation, no structure, no creativity and no pace. All it seems to be doing in stifling what quality we actually have.
Last year we lacked quality. Van Gaal has had £150 million to try and at least in part rectify that. If he hasn't then that's his cross to bear.
That's the stupid thing isn't it. The defence is the weakest technically, so lets make sure they always have the ball.
Bread today, starve tomorrow.
That kinda sums up your pragmatic suggestion and it makes no sense at all. It makes more sense to start from day dot teaching everyone the future and then having them help teach the new recruits as they come in. This wait "until we have all the players" before LVG starts to implement his vision is plain daft if you want to ever see a day when everyone at the club is singing off the same hymn sheet!
I'm all for accepting we aren't as good as we used to be and can't expect to be winning things every year to be honest. The problem is that:
- No one's really expecting us to be at the same level we were under Fergie. Pretty much every United fan said top four was the aim at the start of the season. With the money spent, this wasn't and isn't an unrealistic target at all. A lot of people still say they'd accept it now in spite of the extremely poor brand of football being served up. Moyes would also likely have kept his job if he'd achieved this.
- The criticisms of Van Gaal are based on the frustrating way he is managing the team and the players. Most teams fans would complain for example if their primary go to tactic was hoofball, regardless of their expectations in terms of results. It's a poor way to manage and a poor brand of football to watch.
- All of our star players have again underperformed. One or two, you can put down to the players themselves. When it's every single one, and most of them are either not being used at all or being used out of position, then this is very very obviously a managerial problem. You don't blame the car for not performing well enough when the driver hasn't even figured out how the gears work.
I said imediately after deadline day that I thought top four would be a struggle because of our weird transfers...but I still expected a) a better brand of football, and b) the manager to know how he wants to use the players that supposedly he chose to sign.
My final straw with Moyes was when he signed Mata then admitted he didn't know what position to play him in. Van Gaal has done the same thing with most of his signings, including one he spent £65m of the club's money on. He's even done the same thing with players already at the club who have established positions.
If I could see the manager was managing the players effectively, or if, at the very least, there wasn't a massive mountain of overwhelming evidence that he wasn't doing this (Moyes, Van Gaal), I'd probably be more willing to cut some slack.
When you put Rooney in midfield, Mata, Herrera and Falcao (who you signed) on the bench, Di Maria wherever the spare leftover bit in the team is, and yet find room in the attacking part of your line up for the likes of Fellaini, then you have to produce results and performances to justify that...otherwise the only person to logically blame when it doesn't work, is you. No matter how much you try to shift blame and how many snarly excuses you make in your pre-match press conferences.
If you re-invent the wheel and the outcome is the wheel stops turning, it's not the wheel's fault, or the person who used it before, or the historical success of the old wheel placing a burden on the new one, or ok because the wheel might not turn but it still believes in you, any other shite like that. It's stopped turning because you did a shit job of re-inventing it.
- No one's really expecting us to be at the same level we were under Fergie. Pretty much every United fan said top four was the aim at the start of the season. With the money spent, this wasn't and isn't an unrealistic target at all. A lot of people still say they'd accept it now in spite of the extremely poor brand of football being served up. Moyes would also likely have kept his job if he'd achieved this.
- The criticisms of Van Gaal are based on the frustrating way he is managing the team and the players. Most teams fans would complain for example if their primary go to tactic was hoofball, regardless of their expectations in terms of results. It's a poor way to manage and a poor brand of football to watch.
- All of our star players have again underperformed. One or two, you can put down to the players themselves. When it's every single one, and most of them are either not being used at all or being used out of position, then this is very very obviously a managerial problem. You don't blame the car for not performing well enough when the driver hasn't even figured out how the gears work.
I said imediately after deadline day that I thought top four would be a struggle because of our weird transfers...but I still expected a) a better brand of football, and b) the manager to know how he wants to use the players that supposedly he chose to sign.
My final straw with Moyes was when he signed Mata then admitted he didn't know what position to play him in. Van Gaal has done the same thing with most of his signings, including one he spent £65m of the club's money on. He's even done the same thing with players already at the club who have established positions.
If I could see the manager was managing the players effectively, or if, at the very least, there wasn't a massive mountain of overwhelming evidence that he wasn't doing this (Moyes, Van Gaal), I'd probably be more willing to cut some slack.
When you put Rooney in midfield, Mata, Herrera and Falcao (who you signed) on the bench, Di Maria wherever the spare leftover bit in the team is, and yet find room in the attacking part of your line up for the likes of Fellaini, then you have to produce results and performances to justify that...otherwise the only person to logically blame when it doesn't work, is you. No matter how much you try to shift blame and how many snarly excuses you make in your pre-match press conferences.
If you re-invent the wheel and the outcome is the wheel stops turning, it's not the wheel's fault, or the person who used it before, or the historical success of the old wheel placing a burden on the new one, or ok because the wheel might not turn but it still believes in you, any other shite like that. It's stopped turning because you did a shit job of re-inventing it.
Who would you like as manager, out of interest?
next 2 games are huge.
let's see what the feeling is on here after!
4 points would be big
let's see what the feeling is on here after!
4 points would be big
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