United under LvG: verdict so far!

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Finishing outside of the top 4 will be an even bigger disaster than last season. Just think about how difficult it will be at the top of the table and around those CL places. I think it'll be even more mad than ths season.

If we win the league we'll only get stronger. José isn't going to just stand still and be content with what we have. We'll make at least one massive signing. City will almost certainly have a new manager and they'll be spending loads once more to try to buy back the title. Arsenal will probably continue to make one big signing per summer and are only 2-3 pieces away from being proper title contenders. Both Liverpool and Spurs will continue to develop and can only get better. If you don't get into that top 4 this year than you could be looking at a Liverpool-esque situation. No way you'll wallow in mediocrity for that long but 2+ seasons out of Europe is unthinkable for your club.
 
Orc said:
Finishing outside of the top 4 will be an even bigger disaster than last season. Just think about how difficult it will be at the top of the table and around those CL places. I think it'll be even more mad than ths season.

If we win the league we'll only get stronger. José isn't going to just stand still and be content with what we have. We'll make at least one massive signing. City will almost certainly have a new manager and they'll be spending loads once more to try to buy back the title. Arsenal will probably continue to make one big signing per summer and are only 2-3 pieces away from being proper title contenders. Both Liverpool and Spurs will continue to develop and can only get better.
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You're cheering us up this morning.:lol: All correct of course.
 
Orc said:
Finishing outside of the top 4 will be an even bigger disaster than last season. Just think about how difficult it will be at the top of the table and around those CL places. I think it'll be even more mad than ths season.

If we win the league we'll only get stronger. José isn't going to just stand still and be content with what we have. We'll make at least one massive signing. City will almost certainly have a new manager and they'll be spending loads once more to try to buy back the title. Arsenal will probably continue to make one big signing per summer and are only 2-3 pieces away from being proper title contenders. Both Liverpool and Spurs will continue to develop and can only get better. If you don't get into that top 4 this year than you could be looking at a Liverpool-esque situation. No way you'll wallow in mediocrity for that long but 2+ seasons out of Europe is unthinkable for your club.
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The truth is in a few years there will be 5 or 6 Clubs fighting for the top 4 places/league titles, it won't be long until two years out of the Champions League will be the norm for all the big Clubs.
 
holyland red said:
Which isn't any better than Moyes did last season, under tougher circumstances.
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Well I think he would fare worse then Moyes tbh. Vidic, Evra, Rio and Giggs are gone while our opponents had become stronger. That doesnt mean that what LVG is doing is right. Nevertheless we need to understand that heavy investment is becoming the norm and the fact that we had refused to do so had placed us in a nasty position. 150M are peanuts when you see the bigger picture (years of poor 'pawn shop' investments done by SAF )
 
Getsme said:
The truth is in a few years there will be 5 or 6 Clubs fighting for the top 4 places/league titles, it won't be long until two years out of the Champions League will be the norm for all the big Clubs.
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At some of them, maybe. So long as Mourinho is here there's zero chance we finish outside of the top 4. With United's clout and spending power it should be the same there.
 
Orc said:
Finishing outside of the top 4 will be an even bigger disaster than last season. Just think about how difficult it will be at the top of the table and around those CL places. I think it'll be even more mad than ths season.

If we win the league we'll only get stronger. José isn't going to just stand still and be content with what we have. We'll make at least one massive signing. City will almost certainly have a new manager and they'll be spending loads once more to try to buy back the title. Arsenal will probably continue to make one big signing per summer and are only 2-3 pieces away from being proper title contenders. Both Liverpool and Spurs will continue to develop and can only get better. If you don't get into that top 4 this year than you could be looking at a Liverpool-esque situation. No way you'll wallow in mediocrity for that long but 2+ seasons out of Europe is unthinkable for your club.
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He's right. And then you've got the Adidas money being effected and also top players leaving.

Basically, if we don't get CL football I think DDG and Rooney will be off and if you don't think that'll effect us you're mental.

Before the losses to Swansea and Southampton we were third, 10 points clear of 5th place. This is what you call a bottle job.

Van Gaal needs to sort this out - maybe that loss last night could be the motivating factor? If not, he should be sacked.
 
JUPITER said:
He's right. And then you've got the Adidas money being effected and also top players leaving.

Basically, if we don't get CL football I think DDG and Rooney will be off and if you don't think that'll effect us you're mental.

Before the losses to Swansea and Southampton we were third, 10 points clear of 5th place. This is what you call a bottle job.

Van Gaal needs to sort this out - maybe that loss last night could be the motivating factor? If not, he should be sacked.
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No way Rooney leaves. De Gea on the other hand...

Though, I think you guys will be so desperate to keep him that you'll make him an offer he can't refuse. Like £200k a week or something mad.
 
Rooney won't leave, he'll be 30 this year, on ridiculous wages and not having much left in the tank.
 
devilish said:
Well I think he would fare worse then Moyes tbh. Vidic, Evra, Rio and Giggs are gone while our opponents had become stronger. That doesnt mean that what LVG is doing is right. Nevertheless we need to understand that heavy investment is becoming the norm and the fact that we had refused to do so had placed us in a nasty position. 150M are peanuts when you see the bigger picture (years of poor 'pawn shop' investments done by SAF )
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While we know the extent of the mess we're in under LVG the bit about Moyes is clear speculation. Brendan Rodgers wasn't a huge success in his first season, has since worked wonders at Liverpool.

I disagree about 150 million being peanuts. I would like to see a long-term vision at United rather than a bi-annual Football Manager frenzy. I would like to see a manager capable of identifying players like Coleman and Stones before they're 25 million players. We have the money to fill the gaps with proven world class players, but we need a new fecking squad and building one takes time.
 
Orc said:
Finishing outside of the top 4 will be an even bigger disaster than last season. Just think about how difficult it will be at the top of the table and around those CL places. I think it'll be even more mad than ths season.

If we win the league we'll only get stronger. José isn't going to just stand still and be content with what we have. We'll make at least one massive signing. City will almost certainly have a new manager and they'll be spending loads once more to try to buy back the title. Arsenal will probably continue to make one big signing per summer and are only 2-3 pieces away from being proper title contenders. Both Liverpool and Spurs will continue to develop and can only get better. If you don't get into that top 4 this year than you could be looking at a Liverpool-esque situation. No way you'll wallow in mediocrity for that long but 2+ seasons out of Europe is unthinkable for your club.
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Agree with a lot of what you say but not all. No way is it inevitable that Spurs and Liverpool will get better. While we're at it, a change of manager at City may be counterproductive for them.

Chelsea will get stronger. Mourinho is a class apart as a manager and would have handled us much better. Those points I agree with emphatically.

I still wonder where people find this conviction that Mourinho definitely wanted to come here. And that Charlton is the reason he wasn't offered the job. We have no idea if that's true, it's accepted wisdom that was conjured out of thin air. Personally I imagine we tentatively approached him and he said he'd rather go to Chelsea. But I don't know any better than anyone else.
 
khoazany said:
Read the previous posts.I'm not defending LVG.
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Ah, nevermind... I keep forgetting my own previous posts. ;)

Perhaps Moyes wasn't the right man for the job (long term), but sacking him was a far bigger mistake in my opinion. Appointing LVG wasn't a masterstroke either. I'd say sacking him would cause instability considering what happened here last season, but then he was never going to be here long term in the first place...:wenger:
 
I hope I am wrong but I think we are on the verge of a collapse that will see our top 4 hopes fall away fairly quickly, there has been hardly any progress all season and Liverpool and Arsenal are both better than us.

The money spent since SAF retired has been spent in a panic on mostly the wrong players and this still looks like a squad that needs 5-8 new players and a 2 or 3 year rebuild which is identical to how things were prior to LVG taking over. Personally I think LVG is out dated but don’t see who else we can turn to and Woodward isn’t competent or knowledgeable enough to recruit the right manager or players.

We are in a big mess and I am not convinced LVG is the right man to resolve it but the alternative of bringing someone else in when there are no obvious candidates and ruining another transfer window is probably a worse alternative than getting rid of him. We are paying the price for appointing an incompetent successor to SAF and then replacing Moyes with someone who started the job too late.
 
holyland red said:
Ah, nevermind... I keep forgetting my own previous posts. ;)

Perhaps Moyes wasn't the right man for the job (long term), but sacking him was a far bigger mistake in my opinion. Appointing LVG wasn't a masterstroke either. I'd say sacking him would cause instability considering what happened here last season, but then he was never going to be here long term in the first place...:wenger:
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That's basically sum up my point although Moyes is a must-sacked.We brought in a wrong replacement, simply put.Sadly there's no assurance that we will bring in a right one next time.
 
Roboc7 said:
I hope I am wrong but I think we are on the verge of a collapse that will see our top 4 hopes fall away fairly quickly, there has been hardly any progress all season and Liverpool and Arsenal are both better than us.

The money spent since SAF retired has been spent in a panic on mostly the wrong players and this still looks like a squad that needs 5-8 new players and a 2 or 3 year rebuild which is identical to how things were prior to LVG taking over. Personally I think LVG is out dated but don’t see who else we can turn to and Woodward isn’t competent or knowledgeable enough to recruit the right manager or players.

We are in a big mess and I am not convinced LVG is the right man to resolve it but the alternative of bringing someone else in when there are no obvious candidates and ruining another transfer window is probably a worse alternative than getting rid of him. We are paying the price for appointing an incompetent successor to SAF and then replacing Moyes with someone who started the job too late.
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A lot of truth in that. We're between a rock and a hard place.
 
holyland red said:
While we know the extent of the mess we're in under LVG the bit about Moyes is clear speculation. Brendan Rodgers wasn't a huge success in his first season, has since worked wonders at Liverpool.

I disagree about 150 million being peanuts. I would like to see a long-term vision at United rather than a bi-annual Football Manager frenzy. I would like to see a manager capable of identifying players like Coleman and Stones before they're 25 million players. We have the money to fill the gaps with proven world class players, but we need a new fecking squad and building one takes time.
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Correct me if I am wrong but weren't Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Zaha and co considered the next next big thing in British football at par, if not better then the likes of Stones and Coleman? What benefits had these players and other EPL proven talent such as Valencia, Young, Fellaini and Mata given to the squad? If Backley, Stones and Coleman are so great then why are Everton 6 points away from the relegation zone? If there's so much talent in the British isles then why do they fare so poorly during the WC etc?

We currently have a leaking defense which is made up of players who shouldn't be playing at top club level (Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Valencia, Evans etc). The midfield inherited by LVG was equally crap (Cleverley,Ando, Fellaini and a 33 year old Carrick) and we lack creativity and quality on the flanks (one trick ponies Valencia and Young). I am not saying that LVG shouldn't have done better. Playing Rooney in CM is criminal. However 150m are peanuts when you consider the mess we're in.
 
Roboc7 said:
The money spent since SAF retired has been spent in a panic on mostly the wrong players and this still looks like a squad that needs 5-8 new players and a 2 or 3 year rebuild which is identical to how things were prior to LVG taking over. Personally I think LVG is out dated but don’t see who else we can turn to and Woodward isn’t competent or knowledgeable enough to recruit the right manager or players.
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Its no that bad I think.

As for LVG I'm somewhere in between. But its simple, if he doesnt get top 4 I wouldnt mind seeing him out. Although getting a new manager will again be a mess in our situation, we need to make it right, he needs to asses the squad, again the transition and so on.

LVG has my support until we have a chance of top 4 or we get it but he doesnt help himself does he.
 
Roboc7 said:
I hope I am wrong but I think we are on the verge of a collapse that will see our top 4 hopes fall away fairly quickly, there has been hardly any progress all season and Liverpool and Arsenal are both better than us.

The money spent since SAF retired has been spent in a panic on mostly the wrong players and this still looks like a squad that needs 5-8 new players and a 2 or 3 year rebuild which is identical to how things were prior to LVG taking over. Personally I think LVG is out dated but don’t see who else we can turn to and Woodward isn’t competent or knowledgeable enough to recruit the right manager or players.

We are in a big mess and I am not convinced LVG is the right man to resolve it but the alternative of bringing someone else in when there are no obvious candidates and ruining another transfer window is probably a worse alternative than getting rid of him. We are paying the price for appointing an incompetent successor to SAF and then replacing Moyes with someone who started the job too late.
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Good post. On form you'd have to place Arsneal and Liverpool as the sides most likely to get top 4. On current form we'll drop points over the next five games for certain.

I'm not usually one for knee jerk reactions and sacking managers after a short period of time I usually find ridiculous - but sadly I think we're in a very difficult situation. We need more players (at least 3 or 4 in key positions), and significant invesment is required to bring them in. We need to bring in the right players.

So far Van Gaal has spent a fortune. Blind is a bright point but the others are questionable. He doesnt seem to be able to get the best out of Di Maria or Herrera (whom you would think he approved as a signing). Rojo looks average at best. Falcao may have had injury issues but Van Gaal's man management of him seems to have shattered his confidence. Worse, Rooney is becoming less and less productive whilst the likes of Mata (a PL player of the year nomination while at Chelsea) is sat on the bench.

All in all, its questionable at best whether he's the man to spend another £100 to £150 million next summer. There's a risk he brings in more players who don't seem to fit his system (whatever that is) and tries to crowbar them in. I;d rather see a manager come in, look at what he has and come up with a system to get the best out of them.

In general he's starting to look like a man who talks a good game but can't deliver on the pitch. All of this bollocks about "philosophy" means nothing without results. he may have a great track record but he's been out of club management for a while and perhaps things have moved on in that time. He's persisting with some variant of what gave him success at Ajax and Barcelona but that was over a decade ago and its arguable that the game has changed since then.

If we dont' get top 4 this year he'll be gone - especially if Ancellotti (allegedly our first choice last summer) becomes available.
 
Last summer was our chance to bridge the gap between the quality of our squad compared to City and Chelsea, the gap hasn't been bridged at all.
For the large part of this season, our defence has looked shakey, midfield lacks pace and creativity and our attack lacks serious pace and power.
It looks as the season has gone one, the quality of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs and Lpool has improved and we have remained stagnant.
Van Gaal has spent too much of the season tinkering with the team and tactics, aiming to achieve his best 11 and it's stopped us from improving. Many will say 'we're still 4th' but after the next month of fixtures, I don't think we will. Even if we did achieve CL football, we wouldn't cope well at all with how we've shaped up this season.
 
The comparisons with Moyes at the same time last season are silly. We were on a worse run of results and he had blattantly lost the dressing room.

The one and only positive I can take last night is the fact the team are clearly still playing for the manager. There was real spirit in the effort we put in after going a man down.
 
holyland red said:
Ah, nevermind... I keep forgetting my own previous posts. ;)

Perhaps Moyes wasn't the right man for the job (long term), but sacking him was a far bigger mistake in my opinion. Appointing LVG wasn't a masterstroke either. I'd say sacking him would cause instability considering what happened here last season, but then he was never going to be here long term in the first place...:wenger:
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I think that Moyes was a horrible appointment however LVG wasn't the right man. The guy is old and inflexible in his system. He's used to a football were ball possession is everything, something which is completely alien to our players who mostly hailed from outstanding careers at Aston Villa, Everton, Blackburn, Wigan, Fulham/Maidstone etc so the culture shock was inevitable. Also we've done the same mistake of bringing a manager at the the middle of the Summer recess.

If Ancelotti is available then we cant afford not getting him in.
 
Orc said:
At some of them, maybe. So long as Mourinho is here there's zero chance we finish outside of the top 4. With United's clout and spending power it should be the same there.
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Rubbish, there is every chance any of the so called big teams could be out of the top 4, including Mourinho's Chelsea. At the moment Chelsea are sitting pretty but things change quickly in football, do you think Chelsea could cope with our injury crisis? Or losing their entire back line in one season?
Every single United fan expected us to get top 4 last season, it will happen to every team in the end.
 
pascell said:
Last summer was our chance to bridge the gap between the quality of our squad compared to City and Chelsea, the gap hasn't been bridged at all.
For the large part of this season, our defence has looked shakey, midfield lacks pace and creativity and our attack lacks serious pace and power.
It looks as the season has gone one, the quality of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs and Lpool has improved and we have remained stagnant.
Van Gaal has spent too much of the season tinkering with the team and tactics, aiming to achieve his best 11 and it's stopped us from improving. Many will say 'we're still 4th' but after the next month of fixtures, I don't think we will. Even if we did achieve CL football, we wouldn't cope well at all with how we've shaped up this season.
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If we get CL we will get new players and certainly wont play like this year.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
Dont get this, what do you mean?
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Maybe appointing Moyes was the wrong decision. But once that decision is taken you can't go back in time. Sacking him is not the same thing. It is possible that once he was there, sacking him crested more new problems than it solved. The one obvious one being it cocked up last summer's transfer window. For all his faults he would at least, arguably, have been better placed to oversee our transfer business. He had first hand experience of our problems.

As Van Gaal does now. But quite obviously didn't at the start of the season. Hence the state of our squad now, despite the investment.

Sometimes even if the wrong decision has been taken, you're better of sticking with it than trying to reverse it.
 
Adebesi said:
Maybe appointing Moyes was the wrong decision. But once that decision is taken you can't go back in time. Sacking him is not the same thing. It is possible that once he was there, sacking him crested more new problems than it solved. The one obvious one being it cocked up last summer's transfer window. For all his faults he would at least, arguably, have been better placed to oversee our transfer business. He had first hand experience of our problems.

As Van Gaal does now. But quite obviously didn't at the start of the season. Hence the state of our squad now, despite the investment.

Sometimes even if the wrong decision has been taken, you're better of sticking with it than trying to reverse it.
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I dont agree, Moyes has been a bad choice from the start and we did well to get rid of him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The comparisons with Moyes at the same time last season are silly. We were on a worse run of results and he had blattantly lost the dressing room.

The one and only positive I can take last night is the fact the team are clearly still playing for the manager. There was real spirit in the effort we put in after going a man down.
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Playing for the manager and not getting the results they want are not bound to be a happy marriage.

They may still play for the manager now, but for how long before they tell Aloysius to feck off just as they told Gollum to? Everything has a breaking point, including a manager's control over a dressing room. If results keep going badly, I'm not even sure a man with a resume like Van Gaal could hold his dressing room together.
 
There's also this part of me that sees this in larger, karmic or quasi biblical terms. Like, we had 27 years of Fergie, 20+ years of unprecedented success, and now we have to pay for it. Like the manager and the players are largely irrelevant and nothing can prevent our cyclical downturn.

Im not superstitious so the larger part of me dismisses this. But I cant shake it as a nagging feeling. It was more than nagging last night, it was overwhelming.
 
royboy16 said:
What happens if LVG by some miracle does get us to finish 4th this season only for us to loose the qualifiers,how would people feel then ?
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One step at the time mate. And buy some defenders before the qualifier.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
If we get CL we will get new players and certainly wont play like this year.
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On what evidence?
We have improved slightly, and we seem to be getting a bit better as time goes on but there has been no big leaps. We have nothing but blind optimism to go on at the moment.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
I dont agree, Moyes has been a bad choice from the start and we did well to get rid of him.
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OK well youre certainly entitled to that position, Ive set out why I think that is probably wrong (especially in retrospect) a dozen times or more in the last few weeks so I wont bore you or anyone else with it again. Not now anyway. In ten minutes, who knows.
 
Roboc7 said:
I hope I am wrong but I think we are on the verge of a collapse that will see our top 4 hopes fall away fairly quickly, there has been hardly any progress all season and Liverpool and Arsenal are both better than us.

The money spent since SAF retired has been spent in a panic on mostly the wrong players and this still looks like a squad that needs 5-8 new players and a 2 or 3 year rebuild which is identical to how things were prior to LVG taking over. Personally I think LVG is out dated but don’t see who else we can turn to and Woodward isn’t competent or knowledgeable enough to recruit the right manager or players.

We are in a big mess and I am not convinced LVG is the right man to resolve it but the alternative of bringing someone else in when there are no obvious candidates and ruining another transfer window is probably a worse alternative than getting rid of him. We are paying the price for appointing an incompetent successor to SAF and then replacing Moyes with someone who started the job too late.
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Only thing I disagree with is that we need more players. In the first half of last night's game we were the better side. We had a team out that was going to toe to toe with Arsenal and was, as the first half ended, on the attack and putting a very good side under sustained pressure.

The manager then chose to destroy that with the kind of baffling tactical decisions that we've sadly come to expect of him. Philosophy in action once again. A manager willing to take risks, willing to keep pushing for a result, would have risked a bit of defensive fragility to maintain the attacking momentum we were building up as the first half ended. Instead, Van Gaal panicked and went for 'solidity' in midfield that actually didn't make us more solid, invited Arsenal onto us, and gave Arsenal's best players more room to play in.

The manager is the problem. People keep saying if we buy such and such it will be different. How? People say we should buy Pogba. Has anyone actually watched Pogba play? Pogba sacrifices his position a lot. For good reasons, in my opinion, but he does. Pogba drives forward from midfield, he goes forward to join attacks. All the things Van Gaal seems to dislike about Herrera's game. How will Pogba fare any differently under this manager? It'd be a recipe for disaster actually. Pogba's attitude is such that, unlike the lambs we have in our team right now, he and Raiola would probably tell Van Gaal his tactics were wrong and openly challenge them.

We have enough good players that we should be doing a lot better than we are right now. At some stage the manager has to come under the spotlight.
 
Lose to Spurs and the pressure will build on him. We have to win sunday.
 
Roboc7 said:
I hope I am wrong but I think we are on the verge of a collapse that will see our top 4 hopes fall away fairly quickly, there has been hardly any progress all season and Liverpool and Arsenal are both better than us.

The money spent since SAF retired has been spent in a panic on mostly the wrong players and this still looks like a squad that needs 5-8 new players and a 2 or 3 year rebuild which is identical to how things were prior to LVG taking over. Personally I think LVG is out dated but don’t see who else we can turn to and Woodward isn’t competent or knowledgeable enough to recruit the right manager or players.

We are in a big mess and I am not convinced LVG is the right man to resolve it but the alternative of bringing someone else in when there are no obvious candidates and ruining another transfer window is probably a worse alternative than getting rid of him. We are paying the price for appointing an incompetent successor to SAF and then replacing Moyes with someone who started the job too late.
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Certainly agree with the last paragraph. So much opinion in relation to sacking the manager is little more than empty whinging, and you can't merely vent in an argument like this without suggesting some sort of remedy in terms of who can come in and take over at the helm. If I thought there was a candidate available that would induce some sort of seismic upturn in form then I'd be all over their endorsement. As it stands I can't see the benefit of jumping-ship at this stage just to plunge us back into the transitional, re-build, square-one, scenario that will develop when manager number 4 enters the fray to take over post SAF Utd.
And "Ballbag's" most recent utterings about Ancelotti getting the push at Real need to be taken with a large pinch of salt as I wouldn't pin my hopes on anything he says when it comes to executive decision making in Spain or anywhere else.
 
akash02 said:
I've given LVG loads of stick but I don't think he was to blame for yesterday or at least no more than most games. The only thing I'd have changed from the starting lineup was playing Carrick instead of Blind. It's not like no one ever saw Blind's defensive shortcomings before this game.

Aside from that he didn't do much wrong. I'm a big Herrera fan but one would think he was pinging through balls left, right and centre judging by the way some are reacting. Bringing Carrick on was the right move and it didn't effect us negatively until Valencia and then eventually Di Maria fecked us over with 2 moments of idiocy.

Up and till Di Maria got sent off, I thought we looked a lot better than we have in recent weeks. The tempo was quicker, some genuine link up play between our front players. If not for Valencia's feck up I'd have backed us to win it.

I actually feel a lot more positive about our top 4 prospects:lol:
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Agreed.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
Its no that bad I think.

As for LVG I'm somewhere in between. But its simple, if he doesnt get top 4 I wouldnt mind seeing him out. Although getting a new manager will again be a mess in our situation, we need to make it right, he needs to asses the squad, again the transition and so on.

LVG has my support until we have a chance of top 4 or we get it but he doesnt help himself does he.
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I don’t necessarily mean we have to go and buy 5-8 players or we can’t rebuild in less than 2-3 years but I think that is the kind of side we look like at the moment. Things can change very quickly, players can step up and improve so maybe the answers to some of our problems are already at the club but at this moment in time we have a goalkeeper who might leave, no recognised RB, a LB who is constantly injured, CB’s who simply aren’t good enough, lack of quality and balance in midfield, no quality out wide and strikers who are over the hill.

We have seen that throwing money doesn’t work, sacking the manager without a proper plan doesn’t work either, since SAF left we have been rudderless and acted like a club who had a sudden influx of wealth but no idea what to do with it. This summer there has to be a proper plan which has been well thought out, no more panic buying, no more buying big names etc. Whether LVG should be part of that plan or not I really don’t know.
 
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