Yeah me too. The key to it is balance. Maybe this is why other clubs that have employed Van Gaal have often prospered after he leaves, because he teaches this style but is not so great at finding the right balance in its application. Either way I think we will benefit from this process we are going through in the long run.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
- Thread starter LawCharltonBest
- Start date
- Status
Yeah me too. The key to it is balance. Maybe this is why other clubs that have employed Van Gaal have often prospered after he leaves, because he teaches this style but is not so great at finding the right balance in its application. Either way I think we will benefit from this process we are going through in the long run.
Very good analogy, I've thought the same thing myself.
I like your analogies.
One that's a bit closer to me, personally, is climbing. I'm doing a lot of bouldering these days and it's all getting a bit more fluent gradually over time. What feels painfully slow initially gradually gets instinctive. Started about the beginning of this season and by now I'd consider myself reasonably competent.
Looking ahead, I'll be hoping to see United under Van Gaal look a bit more like this...
I think that's the baseline, but if we miss out on the top 4 this year and aren't in the top 5 by Christmas next year and still playing slowly and switching formations every week I would expect it to become a serious possibility and once it's a possibility these things tend to snowball.
I'm sure the club already have a succession plan in mind, although not until after his 3 years is up. I want him to stay at least two years under the worst of scenarios so he can fully implement his system and have a real go at what he's trying to do.
Yup, Van Gaal definitely won't be fired even if we end up finishing out of the Top 4. There is a lot of truth in the now cliched theory of too much managerial turnover serving as a recipe for disaster. But also, in terms of timing there just aren't any managers of requisite quality out of jobs.
With the latter point in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if Woodward amicably cuts the cord at the end of next season, irrespective of where we end up finishing. Because that's the time when Pep Guardiola's Bayern Munich contract expires. The club is currently on a upward trajectory compared with last season which might suit Guardiola and it just might be too good of an opportunity for Ed and the board to let up, given Pep's stature in game in addition with the chance that he could negotiate a deal our cross-town rivals instead. Even if we're competing for the league by then (like Heyneckes did), Guardiola would be a younger upgrade.
So yeah, wouldn't bank on Van Gaal finishing his scheduled 3 year contract. Wouldn't be surprised if more and more reports linking United with Pep surface in the coming season either.
With the latter point in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if Woodward amicably cuts the cord at the end of next season, irrespective of where we end up finishing. Because that's the time when Pep Guardiola's Bayern Munich contract expires. The club is currently on a upward trajectory compared with last season which might suit Guardiola and it just might be too good of an opportunity for Ed and the board to let up, given Pep's stature in game in addition with the chance that he could negotiate a deal our cross-town rivals instead. Even if we're competing for the league by then (like Heyneckes did), Guardiola would be a younger upgrade.
So yeah, wouldn't bank on Van Gaal finishing his scheduled 3 year contract. Wouldn't be surprised if more and more reports linking United with Pep surface in the coming season either.
Based off of the blatant tendency for negativity and moaning, or saying we are constantly lucky, I genuinely think a decent portion of you on here don't actually watch the games - or at least haven't been watching all season. It's as if you will find anything to criticize LVG - even if it's something he has no control over (i.e. see wasteful finishing from our strikers this season).
I share the same sentiments as @Uzz and @Sam. If you look at the last few games there is a noticeable improvement in our general play. We're passing with more intent, there is more off the ball movement, there are more chances being created, there's more fluidity, we're being more direct in forward movements, and so on. The players are starting to look a whole lot more confident in their roles and responsibilities, which makes me believe that van Gaal's instructions are finally getting to them.
A few great saves by Krul and a fair amount of brain farts on our end prevented that game from being at least 3-0. People citing luck are pure bullshitters who use what they're seeing to justify their negativity towards van Gaal, and simply aren't watching the games closely. It is obvious that the general play has improved. I think the Swansea, Sunderland, and yesterday's game were some of the best performances of the season so far - hands down.
I share the same sentiments as @Uzz and @Sam. If you look at the last few games there is a noticeable improvement in our general play. We're passing with more intent, there is more off the ball movement, there are more chances being created, there's more fluidity, we're being more direct in forward movements, and so on. The players are starting to look a whole lot more confident in their roles and responsibilities, which makes me believe that van Gaal's instructions are finally getting to them.
A few great saves by Krul and a fair amount of brain farts on our end prevented that game from being at least 3-0. People citing luck are pure bullshitters who use what they're seeing to justify their negativity towards van Gaal, and simply aren't watching the games closely. It is obvious that the general play has improved. I think the Swansea, Sunderland, and yesterday's game were some of the best performances of the season so far - hands down.
Totally agree. There was a lot to enjoy in yesterday's game - along with a couple of diabolical brainfarts from Di Maria and Herrera - Herrera's at least had the benefit of making Evans' passes back to De Gea look like sensible things to do. The few horrible moments aside, there was a lot more speed and purpose in our game. Thought the two and three man game on the right side was much better - sprung someone to the byline for a cross on several occasions - there's hope for the future there.
I saw a little more improvement yesterday so that is two matches in a row there was improvement in our overall play. I do have three worries though:
1. LvG's cautious philosophy has neutered some of our creative players like Herrera, Blind and DM. It shows when the first two have the ball centrally about 10 yards from the box and they end up passing sideways or to the wingers. To break down organized defenses we need quick 2 or 3 pass combinations from those areas and it just doesn't happen enough. I think we are too afraid to lose the ball.
2. Our attack is also suffering because our wingers are not creating enough. They rarely get to the goal line and when they do either the cross is ineffective or they bring it back. This problem will correct itself if DM, Adnan and Young can be more effective. As good as Young is playing I would like to see DM on the left and Adnan on the right.
3. We don't have people in the middle of the attack who can beat defenders or even create space to get a shot off. Rooney just doesn't have the quickness and moves to do this anymore, Mata is too slow, Fellannai is not capable of this, and Herrera is too cautious.
For our attack to become effective we will need to correct at least two of these three and it really has to be the first two because the only players we have capable of improving number 3 is RvP and Wilson. RvP, though, has to improve his form (and get over his injury) and Wilson seems to have been dropped from the picture right now.
1. LvG's cautious philosophy has neutered some of our creative players like Herrera, Blind and DM. It shows when the first two have the ball centrally about 10 yards from the box and they end up passing sideways or to the wingers. To break down organized defenses we need quick 2 or 3 pass combinations from those areas and it just doesn't happen enough. I think we are too afraid to lose the ball.
2. Our attack is also suffering because our wingers are not creating enough. They rarely get to the goal line and when they do either the cross is ineffective or they bring it back. This problem will correct itself if DM, Adnan and Young can be more effective. As good as Young is playing I would like to see DM on the left and Adnan on the right.
3. We don't have people in the middle of the attack who can beat defenders or even create space to get a shot off. Rooney just doesn't have the quickness and moves to do this anymore, Mata is too slow, Fellannai is not capable of this, and Herrera is too cautious.
For our attack to become effective we will need to correct at least two of these three and it really has to be the first two because the only players we have capable of improving number 3 is RvP and Wilson. RvP, though, has to improve his form (and get over his injury) and Wilson seems to have been dropped from the picture right now.
Last edited:
The amount of crap people have to spout in this thread to come up with a defence for Van Gaal should be evidence enough to anyone with half a functioning braincell. It's like reading the ramblings of some brainwashed underground cult as they're introduced slowly to the real world but don't want to accept it.
Van Gaal is doing what Fergie did in his last few years?
Remind me of this time when Fergie guided United steadily towards 5th place whilst having them play the worst football in the entire league?
Van Gaal is doing what Fergie did in his last few years?
Remind me of this time when Fergie guided United steadily towards 5th place whilst having them play the worst football in the entire league?The Cult of Van Gaal.
You have accused other people of not watching the games and then come out with this.
"People citing luck are pure bullshitters"
...after a game where the ref bottles a blatant penalty call against us and then the opposition goalkeeper inexplicably passes an open goal to one of our players in the last minute. What the hell has this placed turned into?
2+2=481
people on here saying young looks great. it's like an ugly girl surrounded by really ugly girls looks ok. he's done well compared to some of the other players. that the football is getting better because we had loads of the ball v a barcode team sitting back. we passed in an arc around the box. the best pass was to young by their keeper , it was perfect. that we looked quicker , i didn't see that. FFS wiggy is now the spearhead of the attack.
it's dull ,boring sh1t , and not united football at all. moyes was cr4p and LVG is lucky to be following him and not saf. the ugly girl thing all over again. our keeper will win player of the yr. just because this is a step up from the chosen one (ffs a banner and a song for doing fuc4all) doesn't mean it's united football.
it's dull ,boring sh1t , and not united football at all. moyes was cr4p and LVG is lucky to be following him and not saf. the ugly girl thing all over again. our keeper will win player of the yr. just because this is a step up from the chosen one (ffs a banner and a song for doing fuc4all) doesn't mean it's united football.
The amount of crap people have to spout in this thread to come up with a defence for Van Gaal should be evidence enough to anyone with half a functioning braincell. It's like reading the ramblings of some brainwashed underground cult as they're introduced slowly to the real world but don't want to accept it.
Van Gaal is doing what Fergie did in his last few years?
To be fair, it's a bit rich coming from you.
Oh for the days of static, slow motion, zombie passing.
no kidding , it makes this stuff look pedestrian. gimme the young ronaldo "with no end product" over anyone we have in the side now. at least he would take someone on consistently.
Why is it though?
The level of delusion in this thread is beyond the worst of anything you'd have seen on here prior to the last couple of years. The most hilarious thing is how the delusion has swung completely from completely inventing shite to blame the manager to completely inventing shite to defend him.
Van Gaal has actually used the exact "dinosaur tactics" people pretended Moyes used so they could slag him off for it, and has instead been praised for it.
Let's not also forget under the back end of the 2005/06 season, I say all of 2006 from jan to may fergie had the team playing very expansive football without a CM, scholes broke down and Fletcher was still in transition. VG has a much more talented midfield, and we are struggling like we have limited options
Without debating too much, I'd say there's no point comparing LvG to Moyes, their records speak for themselves, so it's obvious that LvG will get more leeway. It appears that players have fully bought into his plan and would play for him, which was never the case last season.
Even with all that, LvG has tried different formations, 3-5-2, different formations of 4-4-2 and put Fellaini up front when he needed the result and in general, has been very pragmatic.
Look, I've been on LVG 's back as much as anyone this season, but that sentence isn't even remotely true is it?
Moyes basically tried to just copy the exact same tactics that Fergie used for the previous 20 odd years. He just copied them really really badly. He even said in his first press conference how he had to keep the wing play because it was in United's DNA or something equally as cringey. LVG has done the complete opposite. He's trying to completely change the way we play to a far more possession based style. Now there is obviously an argument to be had thats its not working, but thats not the debate here. But to say they're using the same tactics is quite clearly not true.
There's plenty to bash LVG with this season, and I mean plenty. But using the same tactics as Moyes? That couldn't be further from the truth.
Can't say I'm impressed by our wobbly performances, but also can't quite shake the suspicion that we're close to turning a corner...most notably in getting some momentum in the final 3rd. Once that happens, hopefully the daily insufferable questioning of every little formation/player change will subside.
We play the worst football in the league? If you think so you should watch a few teams. No, we are not easy one the eye atm but at least we're in with a shot getting top 4, last season that was already gone.The amount of crap people have to spout in this thread to come up with a defence for Van Gaal should be evidence enough to anyone with half a functioning braincell. It's like reading the ramblings of some brainwashed underground cult as they're introduced slowly to the real world but don't want to accept it.
Van Gaal is doing what Fergie did in his last few years?
fergie always changed players , hell every match. formation and players not so much. always played with wingers even in that 4-5-1 with RVN. it's the way they play , the ball never seems to go into the box but gets recycled all the time. barca without the cutting edge. unbalanced still. i thought with him we'd have turned the corner once we had players back from injury.
So would I, so there's obviously something that's still off in terms of attack. Defending has increasingly better in terms of goals conceded, so once someone steps up with a few goals we should be fine.
our defending is still a bit suspect IMO , we need a controlled killer at the back. dave's kept us in matches all season and last night too. but yes the forward play is the dull end of the spear which we are not used to as united supporters.
Another match played and still got the feeling that finishing 3rd or 4th would be a miracle. I'm a believer.
Ryan Giggs said that too and he was being lauded.
Problem we had with Moyes was he was trying to shoe-horn traditional wing play with his style which was compact in midfield and inverted wingers with full backs providing width. The mis-match was horrible as EVERYTHING went wide to the extreme, seeing as we were well below par in midfield.
LvG has his philosophy but he hasn't commited to how he wants to go about implementing it. Too much changing around has confused things to the point where you can predict the match pattern. I'd like to say that I think we've been better in these two away games as we are starting to win the ball high up the pitch. There's still the point about the backwards and sideways passing but that is Van Gaal's way I guess.
In his first few seasons there were plenty of terrible performances…and in 1989/90 we went over two months without a win losing at home to Crystal Palace, Derby, Norwich and others. So don't think that Fergie just turned on the style…it took him 4/5 years to get things going.
When he took over he had Robson, McGrath, Whiteside and others who some of the best players in the world.
In 1989 he had added Bruce, Pallister, Ince, Sharpe, Webb and McClair and still we struggled.
So we can compare it to Fergie…you either decide to give the manager time or you don't.
But here's what we do know…our most successful periods in our entire history have come with stability and our worse when we change manager regularly. People can draw their own conclusions.
You're one to talk.You have accused other people of not watching the games and then come out with this.
"People citing luck are pure bullshitters"
...after a game where the ref bottles a blatant penalty call against us and then the opposition goalkeeper inexplicably passes an open goal to one of our players in the last minute. What the hell has this placed turned into?
2+2=481
Well that's a load of tosh considering Sexton, The Doc and Attkinson all were managers for over 4 years each and we didn't win a single league title. Stability means nothing if you've got the wrong guy in charge.
Since when the new standard for an acceptable win here has become a win by at least 3 goals, with 10 more chances wasted, with De Gea not making any saves, and with the ref not giving any wrong decision in our favor?
I might see why people criticize the way we're playing, or hope we play more exciting football, but I just can't see how people are trying to somehow picture a win, and a pretty deserved win as well, into "one more reason to sack LVG". It's the same mentality that was unable to explain how we won 13 titles under SAF in the last 20 years.
Criticize when we lose. Criticize when we draw a winnable game. But when we win, a win is a win. Yes you can say we can improve this and that, but to talk about a "lucky win" and a "bad ref", jeez, it's not about loyalty or being a better fan, but how can a United fan sound kind of bitter because we won? And a pretty fecking deserved win as well.
I might see why people criticize the way we're playing, or hope we play more exciting football, but I just can't see how people are trying to somehow picture a win, and a pretty deserved win as well, into "one more reason to sack LVG". It's the same mentality that was unable to explain how we won 13 titles under SAF in the last 20 years.
Criticize when we lose. Criticize when we draw a winnable game. But when we win, a win is a win. Yes you can say we can improve this and that, but to talk about a "lucky win" and a "bad ref", jeez, it's not about loyalty or being a better fan, but how can a United fan sound kind of bitter because we won? And a pretty fecking deserved win as well.
Just feel we've been close to 'turning' it round this season for the proverbial yonks. Some 28 games in, we still aren't there. Are we really suddenly going to come good this last 10 games..?
We did do well the first half then fizzled out the second half against Newcastle who were dreadful. Yes if we had better wingers we would be doing better but that can be said for every team. I don't think we will make top 4 and I do think LVG has cost us this season. Been very disappointed with him but I think he should get another season and I do think he will get it right. But this season has been dreadful and his formation changing and playing players out of position has cost us quite a few points and some of his descisios have just been very odd (Jones taking corners). Think a few of his supporters will need to batten down the hatches the forth coming months when hysteria hits this place when/if we slide out the top 4.
And Moyes, McGuinness and O'Farrell were there for less than 18 months each. I was referring to the longevity of Busby and Ferguson. Docherty was not sacked for footballing reasons but still given time after a relegation.
My point is that you can't tell you have the wrong person after 6 months.
different days them were. now it's success or you get the chop , all down to the money of cl or staying in the prem. DfM was an easy spot after 6 mos. ended for me. LVG better sort it out by 6 months into next season or i would want someone in for the jan window. his faffing around early doors cost the club - especially the away form. if he just could have seen the 3 at the back was f'd from the start we'd be 2nd and putting pressure on chelsea.
he has cut the dross out , the dead wood which DFM didn't have the stones to do. credit there , like to see the grim one touch a few more dead weights and get the "balance" right. but football managers are hired to be fired other than the legends.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but did we not have our best string of results under the 352? from around November until mid december we actually picked up a lot of wins, putting together our best run, games starting from the Arsenal away, Southamption away win, Liverpool at home win, Newcastle at home win etc all coincided around the time of him playing 352 often, including all those games mentioned, perhaps the performances were not amazing but statistically the net points in that period was actually our best.
You could with Moyes, but I get the point you're making. Times have changed though, even from Fergies early days.
Liverpool have been picking the "wrong person" for 23 years. They were in exactly the place we are in when Dalglish bottled it and they also had the sense of entitlement being displayed by some in this thread because they had been so dominant.
There are no quick fixes. No easy answers. Even City can't get it right despite the squillions.
Sack Van Gaal by all means, but who's next and how long do they get to deliver a title?
um , the start with 3-5-2 we fuc4ed the start of the season. home loss to swansea , draw with sunderland , draw with burnley. 2 of 9 , he then switched to 4-4-2 then back to 5-3-2 then back to 4-4-2 or at least 4 at the back and the away form is still sh1t on a bun..
Only people to really replace LvG would be Mourinho or Pep. Until then, LvG should stay in charge.
- Status