United under LvG: verdict so far!

[mazhar13]

Not so when you look at Newcastle's players. They've got some big lads in there and they have been playing quite a physical game of late. They certainly threw their weight around against Villa. We're not exactly blessed with a physically strong midfield and our central defenders, bar Rojo, aren't exactly hard men.

This is why I believe he start with Mata through the middle. However, this doesn't excuse the fact that he put all of the creative burden on the wingers. This match was screaming out for someone to create something through the middle, but van Gaal, so far, hasn't given our central midfielders the freedom to create chances through the middle, particularly as we're not playing a fast-paced, direct style of football. So many times, I have seen Blind and Herrera wanting to create a chance through the middle only to stifle that temptation and play a safer game.

I'm not saying that van Gaal is doing something wrong by having his midfielders play a more disciplined role. I'm just hoping that van Gaal addresses this and doesn't shape us like he shaped Bayern Munich during his spell there. His philosophy is heavily dependent on a #10 to create chances through the middle, and without it, we have 5, instead of 6, players available to create chances.

 

[LeChuck]

I think very slowly, LvG's football mentality (don't want to use the p word) is being reflected in our play-last couple of games especially.

We're dominating the ball and creating a lot more good opportunities per game. There's seems to be a little bit more purpose in our passing and increasing movement (maybe down to RvP injured etc), but even in the Swansea game I saw shades of it.

Our possession isn't (as) sterile and we aren't disjointed as much. I hope before the season ends we have a big performance where everything clicks and we knock 3/4/5 goals in a game (one can dream).

Contrast the last couple of performances to the Southampton loss at home where we were just going through the motions without any real purpose/end product.

 

[Sam]

I think very slowly, LvG's football mentality (don't want to use the p word) is being reflected in our play-last couple of games especially.

We're dominating the ball and creating a lot more good opportunities per game. There's seems to be a little bit more purpose in our passing and increasing movement (maybe down to RvP injured etc), but even in the Swansea game I saw shades of it.

Our possession isn't (as) sterile and we aren't disjointed as much. I hope before the season ends we have a big performance where everything clicks and we knock 3/4/5 goals in a game (one can dream).

Contrast the last couple of performances to the Southampton loss at home where we were just going through the motions without any real purpose/end product.

I think that post is spot on tbh. I saw a lot of positives tonight, despite the negativity on here.

 

[cyberman]

One aspect of the way we play that I like is we aren't crumpling under high pressing and aren't suffering from direct counter attacks.
It's a bit of a mind trick that we aren't creating chances, we seem to dismiss the clear chances we're missing and think 'what else?'
We had 2/3 really good chances tonight get people seem to think we need more, how many teams created 4/5 excellent chances away from home? It's unrealistic.
I really like this style, it's the style we all wanted after Barca spanked us in 09. The fact we couldn't keep the ball under any pressure at all hindered us for too long, it may be a bit too much the other way but that has a lot to do with the opposition as well.
Last season we were getting attacked from all angles due to the opposition smelling blood, how many times
Did we hear how the fear factor was gone and every side declaring they wanted to have a go?
Now it's 11 men behind the ball and 30 percentpossession

 

[Sam]

Did anyone see after the match he waited by the side and shook all the players hands (Rooney even got a big bear hug and Smalling a stoke on the face). All the players looked genuinely delighted to greet him. It might only be a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but it showed to me that they're all still 100% behind LVG and there is a genuine togetherness in the squad. Polar opposite to the vibes we got last season with Moyes and the players.

 

[JUPITER]

I think that post is spot on tbh. I saw a lot of positives tonight, despite the negativity on here.

Me too, and I've noticed something - all the people who are frequently called 'moaners' seem to be really upbeat after the Newcastle performance, and the people that are the ones calling them moaners seem less happy with the game.

Weird. That's not a loaded/sarcastic comment btw, I genuinely think it's odd.

 

[NoPace]

I think very slowly, LvG's football mentality (don't want to use the p word) is being reflected in our play-last couple of games especially.

We're dominating the ball and creating a lot more good opportunities per game. There's seems to be a little bit more purpose in our passing and increasing movement (maybe down to RvP injured etc), but even in the Swansea game I saw shades of it.

Our possession isn't (as) sterile and we aren't disjointed as much. I hope before the season ends we have a big performance where everything clicks and we knock 3/4/5 goals in a game (one can dream).

Contrast the last couple of performances to the Southampton loss at home where we were just going through the motions without any real purpose/end product.

I felt that way the last couple of games but thought we were poor today.

 

[Dion]

Me too, and I've noticed something - all the people who are frequently called 'moaners' seem to be really upbeat after the Newcastle performance, and the people that are the ones calling them moaners seem less happy with the game.

Weird. That's not a loaded/sarcastic comment btw, I genuinely think it's odd.

You can count me in the 'telling people to stop moaning' camp but yesterday (especially the first half) was good, just the final 3rd was again ass.

 

[OldTrevil]

Count me in the positive camp. There was a bit more cohesiveness to the team against Newcastle. I feel playing 1 striker has a lot to do with it as well. The additional midfielder is so important in a possession game. I hope LVG lets Rooney, RVP, and Falcao battle it out for lone striker for the rest of the season.

 

[mariachi-19]

What he's doing is exactly what Ferguson did in his last few seasons. Get the team winning while things are shit.


Differences is what Van Gaal is doing now is laying the foundations for a much much better team to build upon. This team is learning to dominate games. It's laying the frame work for a much stronger United then its been in a long time. Fergie and Quieroz did the same thing from 03-06. A proper rebuilding phase. where results wont always go the way you want them too. Really the only difference between then and now is Van Nistlerooy banging them in like a $5 hooker and much tougher opposition from 3rd to 7th.

Making it clear, there is no quick fix from where United have come from over the last season. Moyes didn't destroy United, it was already declining rapidly, he just wasn't proactive enough in rebuilding but rather felt the pressure post ferguson to get results.

 

[ForlansHair]

I think he's doing a better job than people give him credit for.

The 3 we had behind Rooney for the last 30 yesterday would not look out of place in a mid table side, nor would our back 4 we had out last night (although I do like Smalling and Rojo).

We just don't have many quality players. Even if we finish 6th van Gaal needs to stay, another overhaul of players is badly needed.

 

[::sonny::]

He is not the only guilty, the material at his disposal is really mediocre

We are 4th only because the league this year is really poor

 

[golden_blunder]

Jesus what a bunch of apologists

We were lucky again, our luck won't last

 

[noodlehair]

I've been critical of him at times, but if we're going to pick apart every thing he does then we have to offer praise in the same way. That goal happened because Rooney - who apparently has a fantastic relationship with LVG, based largely on the trust he seems to have in Rooney - broke his bollocks to chase it down and put them under pressure late in the game when the easy thing would have been to half-heartedly chase, letting them out in the process, or give away a foul. That ultimately led to the ball going across to Young, a player almost universally derided, who has been having a brilliant season under LVG, despite often playing in different positions. It's not fair to dismiss his influence on those things happening.

I don't diagree with giving him praise where he's due, but suggesting that in a must win game, where we're not winning, Rooney would think of "half heartedly" chasing down a ball if it wasn't for his manager...sorry but that's bollocks. If Rooney is guilty of anything in those situations, it's trying too hard.

The Young part is a fair point...but all in all it was another predictable joke of a performance.

Also, if we're going to presume any player's form is accredited to the manager, rather than themselves, then Ashley Young's form is more than counterbalanced by the terrible form of Di Maria, or the fact Falcao and Mata's contributions have been cut to literally zero.

What's the point in getting the best out of your fringe players if you turn nearly all of your star players into complete non enitities?

At least we created a few good chances in this game I suppose...I mean, half of the ones we created were for Newcastle, but still.

 

[noodlehair]

I swear half the people in this thread are arguing with themselves. Anyone who watches our games and genuinely thinks "yeah, we'll get top four playing like that", or "we played well there" should probably rethink whatever drugs they're taking.

 

[Lawman]

Jesus what a bunch of apologists

We were lucky again, our luck won't last

That's the way I see it, LVG has cost us more points than he's won for us, we should have had top 4 locked up already. He's been disappointing so far (not advocating a change at this stage as too early plus he should get another season regardless if we don't get top 4). But watch the pressure built when we enevitably drop out the top 4 as we are struggling every single game.

 

[VP]

Yesterday was better but only because expectations are at an abyss. The issue with this narrative of finally-it's-all-coming-together is that the mildly improved possession against Swansea, Sunderland and Newcastle is more to do with team selection than any grandiose philosophy. Take Rooney out of midfied, play Herrera, and it could get better if he played Mata instead of Fellaini. His assessment of players is probably the most worrying aspect of his management, when the entire Caf can see what's wrong it's not healthy.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Did anyone see after the match he waited by the side and shook all the players hands (Rooney even got a big bear hug and Smalling a stoke on the face). All the players looked genuinely delighted to greet him. It might only be a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but it showed to me that they're all still 100% behind LVG and there is a genuine togetherness in the squad. Polar opposite to the vibes we got last season with Moyes and the players.

Absolutely agree with this, the players are behind him, unlike last year.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Jesus what a bunch of apologists

We were lucky again, our luck won't last

Our luck ran out against Swansea, maybe we are in our second phase of luck. He took on a team whose confidence was at rock bottom, then had to bring in a number of players and integrate them, then had a massive injury list, including some of the new players, while trying to adjust to a new club and league himself. There was always a chance there might be problems this season. Next year with more signings that he wants and the new players already here more settled, things will improve. Getting yet another manager will just cause even more upheaval.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Jesus what a bunch of apologists

We were lucky again, our luck won't last

Bullshit.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't diagree with giving him praise where he's due, but suggesting that in a must win game, where we're not winning, Rooney would think of "half heartedly" chasing down a ball if it wasn't for his manager...sorry but that's bollocks. If Rooney is guilty of anything in those situations, it's trying too hard.

The Young part is a fair point...but all in all it was another predictable joke of a performance.

Also, if we're going to presume any player's form is accredited to the manager, rather than themselves, then Ashley Young's form is more than counterbalanced by the terrible form of Di Maria, or the fact Falcao and Mata's contributions have been cut to literally zero.

What's the point in getting the best out of your fringe players if you turn nearly all of your star players into complete non enitities?

At least we created a few good chances in this game I suppose...I mean, half of the ones we created were for Newcastle, but still.

The implication there being they were playing brilliantly before Van Gaal intervened. Which is blatant nonsense in the case of Mata and Falcao.

Di Maria's different but his problems are hopefully just the learning curve you see with a lot of continental players in their first PL season, irrespective of the manager. Not to mention he's had plenty of seasons like this before, in Spain, under a bunch of different managers.

But yeah, let's blame absolutely everything on our manager, no matter what the mitigating circumstances. That's what you do.

 

[prarek]

No direction. Can't believe we're top four. Not sure if the league is that bad or we've got some luck or just De Gea. Probably a combination of it all.

 

[The Purley King]

I haven't seen the last few games, but watched last night and it was f**king painful......
Yes we keep the ball nicely and we look composed most of the time, but where is the creativity? Where is the pace of attack? It is all slow and predictable.
I don't buy this "He is laying the foundations" stuff - this pace of play is never going to trouble the best defences - it barely troubled Newcastle's. It is hugely reliant on a piece of individual magic from someone and given Di Maria couldn't trap a bag of cement atm and he played Fellaini at #10 that was never likely to happen. I actually thought Fellaini did OK, but a creative playmaker he is not.
Hugely concerning imo - we won't make top4 playing like this.

 

[golden_blunder]

The implication there being they were playing brilliantly before Van Gaal intervened. Which is blatant nonsense in the case of Mata and Falcao.

Di Maria's different but his problems are hopefully just the learning curve you see with a lot of continental players in their first PL season, irrespective of the manager. Not to mention he's had plenty of seasons like this before, in Spain, under a bunch of different managers.

But yeah, let's blame absolutely everything on our manager, no matter what the mitigating circumstances. That's what you do.

lets look at Rooney then, a player who was one of the better players if not the best under Moyes. His threat has been watered down significantly by LVGs pig headedness to play him in midfield for most of the season to make up for his lack of balance in the squad, and ignoring the fact that we're unbalanced in forward areas because of his insistence to play the walking dead ahead of rooney

its swings and roundabouts

whilst im not advocating sacking LVG at this stage, if he has a full summer and at this stage next season we're not seeing major improvement, then he has to go

 

[jojojo]

I thought we played better than I've seen us play in a while. A little faster, a little more fluid, a little less pointless passing at the back. I was surprised by just how negative the halftime reaction was on here. We didn't score, but we weren't playing badly, a little more accuracy in the final third and we'd have looked OK.

I'm even surprised by the reaction to Di Maria - 4.9 in the ratings? But I suspect that's about expectations and price tag as much as anything, but I'll save that for his thread.

I'm not a LvG fan. I don't think he's getting the best from his players, particularly from his best players. I think he'd be better suited to project managing a AI football robotics program than United. But I still think we showed a few glimmers of hope last night, in what's been a pretty gloomy season (apart from the results).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

lets look at Rooney then, a player who was one of the better players if not the best under Moyes. His threat has been watered down significantly by LVGs pig headedness to play him in midfield for most of the season to make up for his lack of balance in the squad, and ignoring the fact that we're unbalanced in forward areas because of his insistence to play the walking dead ahead of rooney

its swings and roundabouts

whilst im not advocating sacking LVG at this stage, if he has a full summer and at this stage next season we're not seeing major improvement, then he has to go

Let's not forget that Rooney had his ups and downs under Moyes too, even when consistently played in his preferred position. Plus Fergie himself set the precedent of playing Rooney in central midfield.

At the end of the day Van Gaal played him deeper to accomodate Fergie's last big signing and a player recently rated as one of the very best strikers in Europe. It's a real pity both RvP and Falcao have both been so amazingly crap but giving them both as much chances as possible to hit some form isn't the worst thing in the world.

 

[golden_blunder]

how long would you give him @Pogue Mahone?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

how long would you give him @Pogue Mahone?

Until the end of this year, anyway. I think we've improved on last season and that's really all I was hoping for, in his first season in charge. He'll need to produce a big improvement in the first half of next season, mind you. Especially in our attacking football.

I also might feel differently if we get humiliated in our run of tough games coming up but I actually think we might do reasonably well. So far, one of the big pluses of Van Gaal's reign has been our performance against the best teams round. Which is also one of the biggest differences between this season and last.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

The second half shot from Rojo showed what the problem is. He had to think what to do, started running to late, and arrived too late and got the shot blocked. That's just an example, almost all the players are not immediate in their reaction to the situation, but take a few tenths to decide what to do. If they all speed up that thinking just a little, they would all have a lot more space and time and double the chances to score.

If I listen to the BBC 'lucky Louis' narrative I would get the impression Man Utd didn't have 5 good chances, didn't have a goal ruled out for off side, that the late goal had nothing to do with all the pressure on their defence and it wasn't City who should be on the recieving end of two penalties. It wasn't good or very enjoyable to watch, but the three points were certainly deserved.

 

[Manny]

What he's doing is exactly what Ferguson did in his last few seasons. Get the team winning while things are shit.


Differences is what Van Gaal is doing now is laying the foundations for a much much better team to build upon. This team is learning to dominate games. It's laying the frame work for a much stronger United then its been in a long time. Fergie and Quieroz did the same thing from 03-06. A proper rebuilding phase. where results wont always go the way you want them too. Really the only difference between then and now is Van Nistlerooy banging them in like a $5 hooker and much tougher opposition from 3rd to 7th.

Making it clear, there is no quick fix from where United have come from over the last season. Moyes didn't destroy United, it was already declining rapidly, he just wasn't proactive enough in rebuilding but rather felt the pressure post ferguson to get results.

Couldn't agree more.

It's a shame that we don't have an in form striker to help turn our domination of games into goals and get everyone off LVG's back.

 

[Adebesi]

I haven't seen the last few games, but watched last night and it was f**king painful......
Yes we keep the ball nicely and we look composed most of the time, but where is the creativity? Where is the pace of attack? It is all slow and predictable.
I don't buy this "He is laying the foundations" stuff - this pace of play is never going to trouble the best defences - it barely troubled Newcastle's. It is hugely reliant on a piece of individual magic from someone and given Di Maria couldn't trap a bag of cement atm and he played Fellaini at #10 that was never likely to happen. I actually thought Fellaini did OK, but a creative playmaker he is not.
Hugely concerning imo - we won't make top4 playing like this.

Speaking optimistically here rather than with great conviction - a small amount, not a complete absence - the pace of play is what should pick up once the foundations are laid.

Think about anything technical you learn how to do. For some reason the first thought that popped into my head was those people who lay their hand on a table and jab the spaces between their fingers with a knife really quickly. But playing a song on a musical instrument you are still learning the basics of is probably better. Or assembling something out of lego. Or saying a tongue-twister. You do it slowly at first, deliberately, thinking about each action you take, making sure you get the steps right, accuracy being more important than speed. And you do it again and again and again and the repetition is what makes it second nature and allows you to do it faster and faster. Build the same thing out of lego over and over again and youll be able to assemble a highly complex structure in a fraction of the time it took the first time you did it. Play the same song over and over again on a musical instrument and youll be able to play it ridiculously quickly.

My hope is that this is an apt analogy for what we are trying to do. And that over time we'll be able to zip the ball around much quicker than we have been without thinking about it. That is what he is talking about with laying the foundations. Maybe it wont work out like this, but just because it isnt as quick and crisp as it might be yet, doesnt mean we wont get there.

 

[jojojo]

The second half shot from Rojo showed what the problem is. He had to think what to do, started running to late, and arrived too late and got the shot blocked. That's just an example, almost all the players are not immediate in their reaction to the situation, but take a few tenths to decide what to do. If they all speed up that thinking just a little, they would all have a lot more space and time and double the chances to score.

If I listen to the BBC 'lucky Louis' narrative I would get the impression Man Utd didn't have 5 good chances, didn't have a goal ruled out for off side, that the late goal had nothing to do with all the pressure on their defence and it wasn't City who should be on the recieving end of two penalties. It wasn't good or very enjoyable to watch, but the three points were certainly deserved.

Those few tenths are what I think of as their "Van Gaal Timeout," where they listen to the little LvG parrot sitting on their shoulder saying whether it's allowed or not.

 

[Minimalist]

Until the end of this year, anyway. I think we've improved on last season and that's really all I was hoping for, in his first season in charge. He'll need to produce a big improvement in the first half of next season, mind you. Especially in our attacking football.

I also might feel differently if we get humiliated in our run of tough games coming up but I actually think we might do reasonably well. So far, one of the big pluses of Van Gaal's reign has been our performance against the best teams round. Which is also one of the biggest differences between this season and last.

It's true and cannot be just swept under the carpet like some here appear to be doing. Moyes got humiliated last season in those games - especially towards the end with Liverpool and Man City. So far, Van Gaal has got the team fighting well against the better teams in the league whenever we've faced them.

Because of that I do not share the pessimism that most seem to have about this 'bad' run we're about to embark on. I personally think we'll do well in the 'big' games.

 

[golden_blunder]

Because of that I do not share the pessimism that most seem to have about this 'bad' run we're about to embark on. I personally think we'll do well in the 'big' games.

and if we dont?

I think Liverpool will beat us FWIW, but then again i usually get that feeling every time we play them

 

[Minimalist]

and if we dont?

I think Liverpool will beat us FWIW, but then again i usually get that feeling every time we play them

Well it wouldn't be a huge surprise. Then again, I don't see the scenario of us losing against Liverpool as a hugely significant matter in the run-in should it occur. Plenty of other points to be grabbed and Liverpool will not go without a loss here or there themselves.

I mean the following week, Liverpool are away at Arsenal and we're at home to Aston Villa. Isn't it possible Liverpool will lose that and we'll win against Villa, reversing the points again?

 

[RORY65]

It's true and cannot be just swept under the carpet like some here appear to be doing. Moyes got humiliated last season in those games - especially towards the end with Liverpool and Man City. So far, Van Gaal has got the team fighting well against the better teams in the league whenever we've faced them.

Because of that I do not share the pessimism that most seem to have about this 'bad' run we're about to embark on. I personally think we'll do well in the 'big' games.

I do think we'll do better than last year in those games and that the results so far against the top sides has been good but we're still likely to drop more points in those games than against the weaker sides and we're already only 2 points ahead of 5th.

We needed a last minute goal to get 1 point out of 6 against the top 2, we were flattered at home to Liverpool and we now go to Anfield when they're in much better form and add to that we've still got Tottenham and Arsenal as well as going to Goodison (Everton have still generally been competitive against the top sides). We're going to have to show that we are better against good sides and improve our form significantly otherwise we can kiss the top 4 goodbye.

 

[Minimalist]

Something that needs to be said is that if Van Gaal is going to crumble in the 'run-in' then he isn't the man for the job obviously. Simple as that.

However, I personally see this is as him in his element (just like Holland, an unfancied team, in the WC). I don't expect that from a guy like him. The players seem to believe in him 100% and that's a huge difference from the run-in last season.

 

[bishblaize]

Speaking optimistically here rather than with great conviction - a small amount, not a complete absence - the pace of play is what should pick up once the foundations are laid.

Think about anything technical you learn how to do. For some reason the first thought that popped into my head was those people who lay their hand on a table and jab the spaces between their fingers with a knife really quickly. But playing a song on a musical instrument you are still learning the basics of is probably better. Or assembling something out of lego. Or saying a tongue-twister. You do it slowly at first, deliberately, thinking about each action you take, making sure you get the steps right, accuracy being more important than speed. And you do it again and again and again and the repetition is what makes it second nature and allows you to do it faster and faster. Build the same thing out of lego over and over again and youll be able to assemble a highly complex structure in a fraction of the time it took the first time you did it. Play the same song over and over again on a musical instrument and youll be able to play it ridiculously quickly.

My hope is that this is an apt analogy for what we are trying to do. And that over time we'll be able to zip the ball around much quicker than we have been without thinking about it. That is what he is talking about with laying the foundations. Maybe it wont work out like this, but just because it isnt as quick and crisp as it might be yet, doesnt mean we wont get there.

Its a perfect analogy for where we are right now. The key thing of course is whether the players can ever learn the type of football LVG is after right now. Old dogs new tricks, etc. Or whether its worth the pain to learn.

What I would say is that while our domestic success over the last few decades has been based on a full front assault model, its that same model that's been responsible for our bare minimum success in Europe. 2 wins and 2 losing finals from 20 or so attempts is okay, but considering Chelsea and Liverpool have 1 win and 1 losing final from about half as many appearances during the same period, you'd have to say that it was nothing more than par for the course.

While there were plenty of times when we were simply knocked out by better teams, there have also been times when we got knocked out by lesser teams who were more crafty or managed the game better than us - Porto, Dortmund, Monaco, Leverkeusen, Bayern ('10) jump out as obvious examples.

Of course building a team to do well in the latter stages of the CL is no good if its not built to reach the competition in the first place. But I really do think that there's something to be gained from a more thoughtful style of football, assuming we can balance it with the needs of our domestic competition.

 

[Raoul]

I think today shows why even if the quality of our football gets worse, Van Gaal (and De Gea, really) may get us into the top 4.

But even if we get in, it doesn't mean replacing him this summer isn't the right move. Ancelotti isn't my favorite, but he may be available and I'd prefer him to come in, evaluate and trim the squad and get us playing decent football again. Klopp or Guardiola for sure, but I don't see why they would move this summer.

Point is, we need to be looking at potential replacements, already. If the football doesn't show signs of improving at least a bit in the last 10 games, I'd support a change. We're not some defensive colossus grinding out results. De Gea is brilliant and we should have conceded a penalty today after a feckup, and that's true most games these days.

Highly doubtful Van Gaal is going anywhere...infact, he will likely remain for his three years.

 

[sajeev]

What he's doing is exactly what Ferguson did in his last few seasons. Get the team winning while things are shit.


Differences is what Van Gaal is doing now is laying the foundations for a much much better team to build upon. This team is learning to dominate games. It's laying the frame work for a much stronger United then its been in a long time. Fergie and Quieroz did the same thing from 03-06. A proper rebuilding phase. where results wont always go the way you want them too. Really the only difference between then and now is Van Nistlerooy banging them in like a $5 hooker and much tougher opposition from 3rd to 7th.

Making it clear, there is no quick fix from where United have come from over the last season. Moyes didn't destroy United, it was already declining rapidly, he just wasn't proactive enough in rebuilding but rather felt the pressure post ferguson to get results.

I can't disagree more. We weren't shit every match under Fergie. We had a definite style and could attack at will under Fergie in his last few seasons. We were conservative with our energies and had no midfield but you can't compare this crap with us winning under Fergie.

And there is no evidence that this bout of masochism is going to yield anything good or result in a trophy even a season later. The only thing you are going on is the past performance of Van Gaal's teams which is still isn't strong enough a body of evidence considering you are disregarding the performances of players much more recent. If Van Gaal's history should be taken into consideration then why shouldn't the performance of players like Rafael not be taken into consideration.