United under LvG: verdict so far!

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Cassidy said:
If you don't trust your defence / defensive midfield, you dare not press.
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pseudo_canadian said:
With the state of our defense this season and the lack of balance defensively in midfield, playing a pressing style would simply be suicidal.
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There's no reason not to trust our defence though, we've conceded the 3rd least goals in the PL, behind only Chelsea and Southampton.

This view that our defence is sub-par is a myth started after the Leicester game and perpetuated ever since. There's no truth behind it!

It's our attack that shouldn't be/have been trusted, and Van Gaal stuck with RvP and Falcao all season. Only changing now because RvP is injured.

Invictus said:
But that will stretch our alignment further, exposing the midfield and defense. To effectively press with attacking players, you need a solid base that can withstand a counter-attack if the opposition defenders decide to punt it long. This is where a proponent of gegenpress like Klopp has suffered this season. In the absence of Bender who drops deeper and continued solidity at the back like they had in Hummels + Subotic from 2011-2013, they have become increasingly vulnerable defensively.

By not choosing to press, we can condense the distance between our attacking players and defense, thereby limiting vacant space and making us hard to beat by keeping the opposition players in front of us. Aggressive pressing without adequate cover and organisation is counterproductive.
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This is true, but only if you consider the teams/formations Van Gaal has been playing as our only choices - which they haven't been. In many cases they've been almost surreally limited and based around finding ways to squeeze RvP, Falcao, Rooney and ADM onto the pitch at the same time.

We've easily got the players to play a pressing game if the manager was willing to sacrifice big name players.

This 433 could press from front to back

--------------------------DDG---------------------
Rafael--------Smalling-------Rojo----------Young
Valencia---------------Carrick--------------Blind
--Herrera--------------Rooney----------ADM----

As could this 4231

---------------------------DDG---------------------
Valencia-------Smalling-------Rojo----------Young
--------Carrick------------------------Blind--------
Herrera-----------------Fellaini---------------ADM
--------------------------Rooney-------------------

or even a 352

--------------------------DDG---------------------
----Jones--------------Smalling-----------Rojo---
Valencia--------------------------------------Young
---------Herrera-------Carrick----------ADM------
--------------Mata------------------Rooney--------

It could easily be done.

And lets remember Chile's awesome pressing game is built upon a base of a championship level back 3, with Vidal coming in and out of the team with injury. Yet they stuck to their system and they press the living shit out of every opponent.
 
@JUPITER

Yup fair enough, you do have a valid point there. The lack of a more fluid system using the current personnel does intrinsically inhibit more direct pressing.
 
Invictus said:
@JUPITER

Yup fair enough, you do have a valid point there. The lack of a more fluid system using the current personnel does intrinsically inhibit more direct pressing.
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Thanks man, and damn, what fine sentences you consistently construct! Do you write for a living?
 
Invictus said:
LOL no ! I wish...
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Well you should! I really enjoy your posts, even points I don't agree with necessarily. They're always so well laid out and put across.

I can totally see how you got the 'best new poster' title :)
 
JUPITER said:
Well you should! I really enjoy your posts, even points I don't agree with necessarily. They're always so well laid out and put across.

I can totally see how you got the 'best new poster' title :)
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@Invictus I concur :)
 
I genuinely like LVG and I feel he is being mostly fair to all the players this year, while at the same time doing whatever it takes to finish in the top 4.

I certainly havent agreed with all his decisions, namely his 3-5-2 garbage but I've long since forgiven him for it. I'm sure his nights are much more restful as a result...
 
I don't think we've been lacking in our pressing game. We have pressed opponents quite aggressively, but we've done it quite poorly, overall.

First of all, our forwards never contribute to the pressing game. They are quite static, defensively, and rarely, if ever, get involved in any sort of defending other than in set pieces. Only our wingers, midfielders (other than Carrick), and full backs have pressed frequently. Even then, their pressing has been quite poor. Opponents would often be able to get past the first presser, and the other pressers would often fail to close down all of the passing options. Plus, since we only have a few players pressing, our team doesn't have the shape to compensate for the opposition's successful pass out, which is why we often see our defenders left exposed every match. Our pressing, overall, is very imbalanced. Sometimes, we have too many players high up the pitch. Other times, we have a few players playing the pressing game whilst the rest leave large distances between themselves and the pressers. However, our biggest issues are that the first presser often fail to win the ball (not expecting frequent success, but we've had more failures than successes from the first presser) and the other pressers often leave one option open for the opponent.

It's encouraging that van Gaal has introduced a pressing game to our team. However, it's strange that he doesn't get the whole team involved in the pressing system. It always looks like the central midfielders and wingers are the only ones frequently involved in it, which isn't enough. Hopefully, van Gaal improves our pressing game, because at the moment, it's very poor.
 
mazhar13 said:
I don't think we've been lacking in our pressing game. We have pressed opponents quite aggressively, but we've done it quite poorly, overall.

First of all, our forwards never contribute to the pressing game. They are quite static, defensively, and rarely, if ever, get involved in any sort of defending other than in set pieces. Only our wingers, midfielders (other than Carrick), and full backs have pressed frequently. Even then, their pressing has been quite poor. Opponents would often be able to get past the first presser, and the other pressers would often fail to close down all of the passing options. Plus, since we only have a few players pressing, our team doesn't have the shape to compensate for the opposition's successful pass out, which is why we often see our defenders left exposed every match. Our pressing, overall, is very imbalanced. Sometimes, we have too many players high up the pitch. Other times, we have a few players playing the pressing game whilst the rest leave large distances between themselves and the pressers. However, our biggest issues are that the first presser often fail to win the ball (not expecting frequent success, but we've had more failures than successes from the first presser) and the other pressers often leave one option open for the opponent.

It's encouraging that van Gaal has introduced a pressing game to our team. However, it's strange that he doesn't get the whole team involved in the pressing system. It always looks like the central midfielders and wingers are the only ones frequently involved in it, which isn't enough. Hopefully, van Gaal improves our pressing game, because at the moment, it's very poor.
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On the strikers, LVG makes the point that he prefers to press from the middle not the front. I think its to do with the available space once you force the turnover. I recall reading him say he'd discussed it with the team when they were watching Real vs Barca this season, but I can't find the article right now.
 
ChrisG11 said:
He's experimenting, is what he's doing. I'm not saying he comes on here and has a look what we all want week in, week out, but of course he takes our wishes into consideration just as any other manager would. You say it's the way to go but have we actually been any better with it? Because I don't think we have. Few positives here and there but ultimately, as you say, it's a results business and those have stayed pretty consistent despite any chances he's been making.

On that last point, you've admitted yourself that fans want good results, so I'm not quite sure what your problem is. Yes, he's shown no evidence that he can take us to the very top thus far, but that's not been his objective. He's been aiming to get us back into the top 4 and that is what he's doing successfully as of now, so surely that means he's showing signs that he's capable of completing what's required, does it not? If you want to put a pessimistic twist to that then that's up to you, but based on yor argument I can't see how you'd be worried at all about him right now. That goes for the signings as well, he's bought good players that we're happy with and that are capable of doing the job required, so even if he does or doesn't fail to get back to the top, I'm pretty sure he'll recruit wisely next window and he'll leave the squad in good condition for whoever takes over the reigns.
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In order to stop going in circles, let me just sum my thoughts up about LvG's performance so far:
1. You think that he is building a team to dominate Europe, I have not seen anything to suggest it yet.
2. I do believe that he should do better with players that he has at his disposal, we have 10+ games yet to play in EPL, so hopefully we will see better teamwork by the end of the season.
3. LvG's minimum target for this season is to get us back into top 4. From what I have seen lately, and taking into account our and our rivals' current forms, I am not really optimistic about us making it into top 4. Liverpool have no EL to play in, so they can fully concentrate on the league. Their performance against City showed that they are in a form that we are yet to hit this season.We will probably fight it out for the 4th place. We will do our best to reach the minimum of what was expected from Van Gaal. If we finish 4th, I think we can call his performance this year as "satisfactory".
4. We have the best financial resources (taking into account FFP) not just in EPL but probably in the whole world. So my expectation would be to have a manager that can take us to the very top.
I hope I am hugely mistaken, but LvG does not seem to be that manager. One thing at a time though, I am sure we both agree on this. This season is top 4 is minimum. Next season he will be expected to challenge for the title, with an EPL or CL cup being a must in his third year. Hopefully, LvG is capable of doing this.
 
Smores said:
If just half of what he said was reflected on the pitch id be extremely happy.

As it stands though his commentary seems completing divorced from how he sets us up. There's a reason we're passing it back so much and its not the players.
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Fair comment. Too often we dont play as he says we will
 
I really fear today is when our bubble bursts and we drop out of the top 4. And then we drop even further with the upcoming tough matches. I hope I'm wrong but our form just suggests we can't stay in the top 4 especially with the form of Arsenal and Liverpool.

I did see some improvement our last math vs Sunderland but it's probably too little too late given our competitors' form. I just can't believe, based on the last 2 months, that we will sustain any improvement. Perhaps our only hope is for one or two attacking players to jump their form and start scoring or setting up many goals.

The truth is we have been grinding out results pretty much the whole season and I don't believe any team can grind their way to 4th or better. At some point a team has to play some sparkling football and go on a convincing run of results. We have not done that and there is little reason to believe it will start now.

Sorry for the doom and gloom....
 
bishblaize said:
On the strikers, LVG makes the point that he prefers to press from the middle not the front. I think its to do with the available space once you force the turnover. I recall reading him say he'd discussed it with the team when they were watching Real vs Barca this season, but I can't find the article right now.
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Yes, you wouldn't expect them to be trying to win the ball in those situations, but they don't even set their positions so that they close down the passing options. This is key in van Gaal's defensive setup in order to force the ball out wide or make them play a long ball forward. More often than not, I've seen our strikers take poor defensive positions or not even try to get into a decent defensive position. This makes it tougher for the rest of the team to win the ball.
 
I'm really happy with this line up tonight. It looks good and I really want it to click. He's dropped Falcao, gone for width and put Rooney up top.

We need a win away from home because if we're gonna finish top 4, then the away form must improve with pretty much immediate effect.

What would be really nice is an actual proper United performance away from home.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Since I've been a fan since 1963 I think I may be a little older than you.
The question has been asked before, as pointed out by many posters on that thread
Questioning people's ability to being able to read properly seems quite rude

If you have been a fan since 1986 then presumably you would have been calling for Ferguson's head in the late 80s or at least doubting his ability.

Moyes should never have been appointed and was an error on the club's part, as was Frank O'Farrell back in the 70s.
Obviously LVG will find the PL different to other leagues and will need time to adapt as will a lot of our signings like ADM Falcao etc, some adapt quicker than others for various reasons.
LVG has managed in other leagues and adapted to them.

If we don't make top 4, which I believe we will, then changing the manager again will not assist the club in any way. Back to square one.
Whatever happens between now and the end of the season, I believe next season will see a more fluid and exciting United, being right up there challenging again.

Always dreaded the day when SAF retired and knew it would be difficult, but it won't be as catastrophic as when Sir Matt retired. Just a little time is needed but patience is very thin on the ground in here
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Brilliant post Paul. I can't believe people want to get rid of LvG at the moment since historically he has never won trophies for a top club other than the Fa Cup equalivent of those countries from what I have read yet has gone on to win the PL afterwards. He did win it with that small club in Netherlands though. Still, we are still in the running for the FA Cup and hopefully we can win it. Guess we will know after the Arsenal game.

Mourinho played possession football when he stared at Chelsea, yet when LvG does it they complain. He is doing it for a reason, being the defence was terrible. People are right though, we haven't played as old United but the players are to blame as they were under Moyes. That said Moyes I believe was a terrible coach for United and LvG is miles better.
 
gerdm07 said:
I really fear today is when our bubble bursts and we drop out of the top 4. And then we drop even further with the upcoming tough matches. I hope I'm wrong but our form just suggests we can't stay in the top 4 especially with the form of Arsenal and Liverpool.
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I'm getting these vibes as well.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Never mind long balls, this stat makes for grim reading.

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Yeah, I saw that one earlier on, they were talking about it on SSN. Mentioned that Rojo has had the most passed back to De Gea out of anyone in our team.
 
Did I just see LVG stand up during the game and shout from the touch line ???

Must be seeing things
 
We really should have gone into half time ahead, there comes a point where I sympathise with the manager, he has these big name strikers but they don't take what should be easy chances.

Still a second half to come and hopefully Rooney gets himself on the scoresheet, we need at least one striker that we can have some confidence in scoring.
 
Just a completely clueless prat, I really hope he's sacked I've had enough.

Moyes was bad but he was better than this sack of crap
 
I'm sick of this.

Annoying thing is that if we manage a late winner he'll just trot out his 'we're getting results, so it's all good' bullshit.
 
I've lost faith in LVG. This is the worst Newcastle side I've seen in a long, long time. Why is Fellaini playing up front? Why is Falcao on the bench?

LVG makes me sad. Three away wins all season, not good enough. Considering the money spent, these are pitiful performances. :(
 
His arrogance should be a good thing, but it's starting to rub me the wrong way. After that very fortunate last-gasp goal he turned to what looked like a disillusioned Giggs with a "see, told you so, it was my philosophy" kind of look. :wenger:
 
I'm still fed up with him. I see nothing in our football to suggest we are just unlucky
 
The football he is coaching is garbage. Constant backwards and sidewards passing. Absolutely no pace, skill or creativity. Absolutely dreadful football.
DDG has saved us on so many times. He makes bizarre substitutions every game. We desperately needed a goal today and there was no urgency what so ever! We are winning in spite of him atm.
 
His substitutions completely baffle me nine times of ten, not that I currently care right now!
 
A Dutch manager that lacks creativity.... lol

Thank god he brings fighting spirit.
 
Parma Dewol said:
I've lost faith in LVG. This is the worst Newcastle side I've seen in a long, long time. Why is Fellaini playing up front? Why is Falcao on the bench?

LVG makes me sad. Three away wins all season, not good enough. Considering the money spent, these are pitiful performances. :(
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Why should falcao not be on the bench he has been terrible week in week out, fellaini wasn't great but he was better than falcao has been for a long time.
 
First half was much better than what we've seen lately. However, his subs almost killed it. No way should have Fellaini stayed on so long and ADM, who was unlucky but injected pace and put Newcastle back, be substituted
 
Parma Dewol said:
His arrogance should be a good thing, but it's starting to rub me the wrong way. After that very fortunate last-gasp goal he turned to what looked like a disillusioned Giggs with a "see, told you so, it was my philosophy" kind of look. :wenger:
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We don't know that, to be fair it could be as simple as Giggs wanting take Young off instead of Fellaini since you can always go route one with Maruoane on the field.
 
We are now officially safe from relegation (mathematically) so its a job well done, first goal of the season achieved
 
I've been no fan of Falcao and would send him back to Monaco but thought it was odd to not bring him on (or even Wilson) instead of Carrick. Got the win but I'm worried we're gonna get found out in our upcoming tough run of fixtures.
 
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