United under LvG: verdict so far!

[Adebesi]

May I first of all say that Hugo Borst, although he did write his book, is by no means a friend of van Gaal? They fell out on multiple occasions I believe. He's just a journo who wants to make money and he isn't rated that high in Holland. He writes good books, yes. But his job as football critic he's not brilliant at, he's never played football in his life. (I'm not a fan, he's a horrible man)

The article comes with some facts yes, and it might be true he doesn't see enough youngsters to implement in his first year. LvG hasn't lost his vision though, Blind praised him after the WC for predicting how every match would go as they did.

Has he lost his spark? He wanted to retire before Holland, but got the job. When Manchester United called his wife Truus said that he had to retire, but he didn't. He wants to win the league in all the big competitions, so I have no doubt that he's still got the fire the younger van Gaal had.

Do we see this fire? No. He has been amazingly calm for van Gaal, everyone who knows him could tell you that. I think it's a combination of 3 things: his wife Truus (who repeatedly was embarred at his previous jobs), he's a bit older and maybe a bit calmer and he's not fluent in English. He's very clearly struggling for words, if you want to go on a tirade that's not very usefull. The long balls press conference was the first where he could respond after someone crossed his line: with facts he printed out. I believe we'll that fire back sooner than later, he was still just as mad for the worldcup.

The article says Holland switched to 352 because of Strootman, the box-to-box type picking up an injury. What it doesn't say is that we haven't got one either at Manchester United. He's tried Fellaini, Rooney and Herrera in this role but he was never happy. If you know his 'philosophy' you know that he always wants 4 defensive minded players. When we've played 352 that was no problem: 3CB+1DM, but when he switched to the diamond because it wasn't working out he had problems. 2CB+1DM isn't enough for him, he needs a box-to-box player. At the moment we see Herrera playing as this defensive minded player and he's done well against teams that park the bus, but Herrera is still a creative player for him.

The squad is too unbalanced for him to play 433, his 2nd choice 352 (where he does have the players for) didn't work out so that left him in a spot of bother. He's still tinkering for the formation and like I posted above he admitted to having underestimated some parts of the job which left him struggling. He does have a long-term plan though, this is van Gaal we're talking about. The man who even analyses how the opponents take their kickoffs, throw-ins and does 100% of the thinking for the players. Van Gaal saw what happened to Moyes, he's not going to fully implement his style of play when he doesn't trust the balance of players. (4 defensive minded, 4 creative etc) Once he gets some players to fill the criteria he's set we'll see a more settled formation.

Its good to read a counter argument. You make good points and yes, there are grounds to hope things will improve markedly once we have the missing piece or two in the jigsaw in place.

Its a shame he wasnt able to figure all this out a little quicker, ideally in time to bring the right players in last summer. Its not that he didnt know back then, he talked about the balance and having too many number 10s. He didnt act then and he didnt act in January either. That was his choice. Maybe he didnt feel the right players were available at that time, personally I think for an issue that is obviously fairly fundamental to the workings of his system he should probably have looked for a stopgap measure, or just thrown money at it. Itll surely cost more if it ends up being the reason we dont get back into the CL. I guess he thought he could muddle through with an ugly pragmatic approach, I hope he is right.

I dont think the lack of fire thing is about language, it wasnt an issue in German, which I gather is a similar level to his English. I think it is an age thing. We saw it with SAF too. But the same comparison shows it neednt be a problem, you can mellow as you get older but maybe you compensate with a bit of wisdom as well. Or maybe SAF was unique in that sense.

Anyway, like you Im not giving up hope that he'll refine his squad this summer and next year we'll start to see some better football. Though I have to also say the nagging doubts are getting harder to ignore.

 

[PlayerOne]

I thought Rooney said something interesting over the weekend:

“Sometimes you have to work the opposition to tire them out which, towards the end, is how you win games.”

Which does explain some of our play.

 

[MDFC Manager]

May I first of all say that Hugo Borst, although he did write his book, is by no means a friend of van Gaal? They fell out on multiple occasions I believe. He's just a journo who wants to make money and he isn't rated that high in Holland. He writes good books, yes. But his job as football critic he's not brilliant at, he's never played football in his life. (I'm not a fan, he's a horrible man)

The article comes with some facts yes, and it might be true he doesn't see enough youngsters to implement in his first year. LvG hasn't lost his vision though, Blind praised him after the WC for predicting how every match would go as they did.

Has he lost his spark? He wanted to retire before Holland, but got the job. When Manchester United called, his wife Truus said that he had to retire, but he didn't. He wants to win the league in all the big competitions, so I have no doubt that he's still got the fire the younger van Gaal had.

Do we see this fire? No. He has been amazingly calm for van Gaal, everyone who knows him could tell you that. I think it's a combination of 3 things: his wife Truus (who repeatedly was embarred at his previous jobs), he's a bit older and maybe a bit calmer and he's not fluent in English. He's very clearly struggling for words, if you want to go on a tirade that's not very usefull. The long balls press conference was the first where he could respond after someone crossed his line: with facts he printed out. I believe we'll that fire back sooner than later, he was still just as mad for the worldcup.

The article says Holland switched to 352 because of Strootman, the box-to-box type picking up an injury. What it doesn't say is that we haven't got one either at Manchester United. He's tried Fellaini, Rooney and Herrera in this role but he was never happy. If you know his 'philosophy' you know that he always wants 4 defensive minded players. When we've played 352 that was no problem: 3CB+1DM, but when he switched to the diamond because it wasn't working out he had problems. 2CB+1DM isn't enough for him, he needs a box-to-box player. At the moment we see Herrera playing as this defensive minded player and he's done well against teams that park the bus, but Herrera is still a creative player for him.

The squad is too unbalanced for him to play 433, his 2nd choice 352 (where he does have the players for) didn't work out so that left him in a spot of bother. He's still tinkering for the formation and like I posted above he admitted to having underestimated some parts of the job which left him struggling. He does have a long-term plan though, this is van Gaal we're talking about. The man who even analyses how the opponents take their kickoffs, throw-ins and does 100% of the thinking for the players. Van Gaal saw what happened to Moyes, he's not going to fully implement his style of play when he doesn't trust the balance of players. (4 defensive minded, 4 creative etc) Once he gets some players to fill the criteria he's set we'll see a more settled formation.

That's an interesting and knowledgeable viewpoint, thanks for that. I've a question for you, since you've probably seen a lot more of LvG than most of us here: Once we do get that 1 (or 2, or 3) players that finally let him play his favored formations and tactical setups, how do you see us play and will how do you think that play style will impact our success in the short and long term?

 

[bishblaize]

Its a shame he wasnt able to figure all this out a little quicker, ideally in time to bring the right players in last summer. Its not that he didnt know back then, he talked about the balance and having too many number 10s. He didnt act then and he didnt act in January either. That was his choice. Maybe he didnt feel the right players were available at that time, personally I think for an issue that is obviously fairly fundamental to the workings of his system he should probably have looked for a stopgap measure, or just thrown money at it. Itll surely cost more if it ends up being the reason we dont get back into the CL. I guess he thought he could muddle through with an ugly pragmatic approach, I hope he is right.

Don't forget he only arrived for his first training session 6 weeks before the transfer window ended. And anyone that was involved in the WC post-group stage (both our players and people we might buy) was on holiday for another couple of weeks past that. So I really dont think we could ask for much more from LVG in those terms.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Its a shame he wasnt able to figure all this out a little quicker, ideally in time to bring the right players in last summer. Its not that he didnt know back then, he talked about the balance and having too many number 10s. He didnt act then and he didnt act in January either. That was his choice. Maybe he didnt feel the right players were available at that time, personally I think for an issue that is obviously fairly fundamental to the workings of his system he should probably have looked for a stopgap measure, or just thrown money at it. Itll surely cost more if it ends up being the reason we dont get back into the CL. I guess he thought he could muddle through with an ugly pragmatic approach, I hope he is right.

Someone who knows him better, can perhaps answer this better but I think some of his summer choices were down to his teacher-type coaching style. He's said that he wants to improve the players he has, first and foremost. That explains some of his tinkering of players (followed by exasperation from supporters saying he doesn't know how to use certain players). Of course, the big issue in this instance was that he underestimated the level of PL competition and the task on his hands.

The January criticism is valid though. When he knew that he's got an unbalanced, VERY injury prone squad, he could have added 1-2 stop gap measures. Anyways, if he can pull off top 4 (and hopefully a cup win) AND follow it up with snagging all his first choice targets in the summer, he'd be vindicated.

 

[Adebesi]

Don't forget he only arrived for his first training session 6 weeks before the transfer window ended. And anyone that was involved in the WC post-group stage (both our players and people we might buy) was on holiday for another couple of weeks past that. So I really dont think we could ask for much more from LVG in those terms.

Well I can ask for it, but youre right that it is probably expecting too much to expect it. But as I said, what makes it tough is that he had already diagnosed it, right back then. He saw the problem, he talked about the problem. So its a relatively small additional step to ask him to solve it as well. But yes, I understand these things take time.

Doesnt address the question of why he didnt find a stop gap in January either.

Still, brings us back to the question about this coming summer. If he leaves the next manager will end up with the same situation and the same excuse. Maybe with a few extra weeks to deal with it but will those additional weeks be enough?

 

[NL Max]

Its good to read a counter argument. You make good points and yes, there are grounds to hope things will improve markedly once we have the missing piece or two in the jigsaw in place.

Its a shame he wasnt able to figure all this out a little quicker, ideally in time to bring the right players in last summer. Its not that he didnt know back then, he talked about the balance and having too many number 10s. He didnt act then and he didnt act in January either. That was his choice. Maybe he didnt feel the right players were available at that time, personally I think for an issue that is obviously fairly fundamental to the workings of his system he should probably have looked for a stopgap measure, or just thrown money at it. Itll surely cost more if it ends up being the reason we dont get back into the CL. I guess he thought he could muddle through with an ugly pragmatic approach, I hope he is right.

I dont think the lack of fire thing is about language, it wasnt an issue in German, which I gather is a similar level to his English. I think it is an age thing. We saw it with SAF too. But the same comparison shows it neednt be a problem, you can mellow as you get older but maybe you compensate with a bit of wisdom as well. Or maybe SAF was unique in that sense.

Anyway, like you Im not giving up hope that he'll refine his squad this summer and next year we'll start to see some better football. Though I have to also say the nagging doubts are getting harder to ignore.

Like I said he made many mistakes already, I even think he thought Herrera would be a BTB player (which he clearly isn't). He only had little time to clear some deadwood and bring in new players, it's not really a case of throwing money at it and it will happen. Transfers are complex because all sides have to agree and he doesn't like having 4 players competing for 1 spot (which we now have for the number 10 role..). I really think it was a case of the right players not being available so he bought players suited to a 352, because he already knew in advance his first year wasn't going to be about free flowing domination football.

As regarding the januari transfer window: box-to-box players are hard to find and I really think he wanted Strootman if he played the last couple of months for Roma. Januari is always a tough time to bring in new players, especially if they still have to adapt to van Gaals' ways. So a stopgap player wouldn't even be good for the remaining half of the season.

Like I posted before, this is what I think van Gaal didn't factor in: he overestimated our selection due to a great preseason, after Swansea his eyes were opened. He underestimated the physicality of the PL, which he confirmed. I think he hoped the 352 would work, with 433 not being an option he's now stuck with 4 strikers, 3 number 10s, 3 wingers (Valencia is our rightback), 2 defensive midfielders and 1 leftback. This is incredibly hard to find a suited formation for he's happy according to his own rules.

It clearly is about language, not all Dutch people speak English well. As a Dutchie it's very easy to recognise when someone is struggling, and my god van Gaal is struggling . It's hilarious for us to see because he basically translates Dutch to English in a basic manner, hoping everyone will know what he means. If you give a tirade like this, it might come out all wrong and he'd be the bad guy. He knows the press in England are hounds, that's why he's cautious.

I have doubts, but if there is a man who can bring Manchester United back to the top it is van Gaal. I'm personally a huge fan of him and I look forward to every game knowing we can win, something which I didn't under Moyes. I see progress aswell, but it's a possession based style and not what many United fans are used to.

 

[Smores]

I thought Rooney said something interesting over the weekend:



Which does explain some of our play.

The manager of this club has a responsibility to the fans to provide exciting football as far as im concerned.

Id forgive the lack of entertainment for this season if we get top 4 but this isn't the mentality of a united manager. Not for every game when quality will do, he isn't managing a national team anymore and he needs to remember that.

 

[Adebesi]

Yes but sorry to keep repeating myself but he pointed to having too many number 10s and he said Herrera was a number 10 last summer - wasnt that when the window was open, before we bought Di Maria? He was saying he wasnt box to box before I had figured it out, when I was still thinking Herrera was this all purpose midfielder Id been hoping for for the last however many years. I know saying it and doing something about it are two different things, its just frustrating that this lack of balance thing is being brought out now like it came as a surprise when in fact he seemed to establish this within weeks of getting back from Brazil.

 

[NL Max]

That's an interesting and knowledgeable viewpoint, thanks for that. I've a question for you, since you've probably seen a lot more of LvG than most of us here: Once we do get that 1 (or 2, or 3) players that finally let him play his favored formations and tactical setups, how do you see us play and will how do you think that play style will impact our success in the short and long term?

I think he's going back to basics next season: 433 with 2 defensive midfielders (kinda lika 4231). He's bringing in Memphis Depay (you can put your money on this), a box-to-box player who's good defensively. 1 or 2 of RvP and Falcao are leaving/not coming. Not sure if he's bringing in a new striker. We're getting a RCB and maybe some squad players (fullback, centreback and winger).

433 has always been his favourite formation because it offers the greatest balance for the way he likes to play the game. He can play his style with other formations, but they all have obvious weak points. Van Gaal always wants to play attacking football, but he learned at the worldcup it isn't always going to win you games. He saw what happened to Moyes so he's just aiming for top 4 (obviously the title at first, but that's not going to happen). When he's got top 4 and CL he will slowly go drill our players to be dominant and free-flowing attacking wise.

EDIT: For the long term:
Van Gaal has always been a trainer who thinks about the long term. I don't think he'll be a great succes, bar some trophies and maybe a won League. The trainer who's going to take over from him will do this with much more ease than taking over from Fergie/Moyes would've been like. He's brought in players who aren't at their peak and is bringing through youth, these players will peak once van Gaal leaves after 3 years.

 

[ScarleyUtd]

I thought Rooney said something interesting over the weekend:



Which does explain some of our play.

They did this against QPR and Sunderland, stretching them this way and that. It's definitely a tactic, for the teams that sit back anyway.

 

[RikRuud]

I like that he had the balls to drop Di Maria at half time it was a big decision as he was playing terribly. The camera followed him and Januzaj walking towards the tunnel with Van Gaal giving his instructions to Januzaj. It was a decision that turned the game for us.

 

[Nighteyes]

It's a funny situation. The more I read about Van Gaal, the more I think he's the right man for the job.

On the other hand, the more I watch us play, the less I believe in Van Gaal and his methodologies.

 

[NL Max]

Yes but sorry to keep repeating myself but he pointed to having too many number 10s and he said Herrera was a number 10 last summer - wasnt that when the window was open, before we bought Di Maria? He was saying he wasnt box to box before I had figured it out, when I was still thinking Herrera was this all purpose midfielder Id been hoping for for the last however many years. I know saying it and doing something about it are two different things, its just frustrating that this lack of balance thing is being brought out now like it came as a surprise when in fact he seemed to establish this within weeks of getting back from Brazil.

We also lacked wingers so Di Maria had nothing to do with this.

I didn't know he said Herrera was a number 10 back then already, so that wasn't a mistake then. The problem I think is: he didn't want a big squad with so few matches. He needed to offload certain players and Fletcher (sort of our BTB player) was great in preseason, only to fail in the league for us (heard he's doing great at WBA, good for you Fletch!). He wanted to play and the club was nice to let a player who served us so long leave on a free. This means we only have Blind and Carrick as CDM's, because he doesn't like Fellaini, Rooney, Herrera or even Mata there (that last decision does baffle me tbh )

He couldn't buy all the players he needed for 433 because A. he didn't know the players fully yet B. Too much change is never good. We already saw so many players leave and 6 come in with a couple from the youth academy. This is a massive overhaul for the dressing room, they're all human and have to get to know each other. Squads change all the time, but not quite like last summer.

So we never had the players for 433, we had the players for 352. Many suggested he's stubborn, but he changed away from his preferred formation for this year because it wasn't working. This has saddled him with a problem though since it didn't work. 352 worked so well for him in preseason, even against Liverpool. With 352 having only 2 CDM's is fine, so he just brought in some more attacking power which I can understand. Hindsight is a beauty, and now we can all see that it was the wrong decision.

 

[bishblaize]

Doesnt address the question of why he didnt find a stop gap in January either.

Box to box midfielders are as rare as hens teeth (to quote fergie). It's entirely possible there simply wasn't one on the market. It's not ilke defenders or even strikers where there's often a mid-table player having a good season that you can hoover up to do a short term job for you.

 

[jojojo]

The squad is too unbalanced for him to play 433, his 2nd choice 352 (where he does have the players for) didn't work out so that left him in a spot of bother. He's still tinkering for the formation and like I posted above he admitted to having underestimated some parts of the job which left him struggling. He does have a long-term plan though, this is van Gaal we're talking about. The man who even analyses how the opponents take their kickoffs, throw-ins and does 100% of the thinking for the players. Van Gaal saw what happened to Moyes, he's not going to fully implement his style of play when he doesn't trust the balance of players. (4 defensive minded, 4 creative etc) Once he gets some players to fill the criteria he's set we'll see a more settled formation.

That's the impression I get watching the team. I keep seeing them with this critter on their shoulder, whispering in their ear, "What will the boss say if you do that?"

On the one hand, I hope the answer will become second nature to them, and they'll lose that hesitancy - I still believe in the, "it may all just click" scenario. On the other hand it places a huge responsibility on LvG to give them the right commands.

 

[NL Max]

That's the impression I get watching the team. I keep seeing them with this critter on their shoulder, whispering in their ear, "What will the boss say if you do that?"

On the one hand, I hope the answer will become second nature to them, and they'll lose that hesitancy - I still believe in the, "it may all just click" scenario. On the other hand it places a huge responsibility on LvG to give them the right commands.

Apart from the 3-4 creative players who can take risks/be unpredictable (Di Maria, Young, Rooney, RvP, Mata) Louis van Gaal is basically playing all the positions. The other players HAVE to do what he tells them to do, this is why likes to work with juice. They listen much better than established players, that's why he's fallen out with so many players in his carreer already. Footballers usually have a big ego (which isn't a negative trait) and don't like this. That just means you're not suited for LvG. Plenty of examples of players do like him though and find him a great coach.

He tells them where to be on the pitch, what they can and can't do (no dribbles from fullbacks, CDM'ers etcetera). Many players struggle with this at first and some will never learn this. I'm afraid Rafael is a player who can't perform like LvG wants him to. Not only do they have to know what they themselves can and can't do, they must know this from each and every teammate on the pitch. Passing to a fullback who is marked is pointless as the fullback has the instruction to pass it back for example. Taking in all this information: what to do when the opposition is in that shape, his teammate who can dribble is there, the player who can cross is there, the midfielder who has the task to run there etc. is extremely difficult to learn. The whole team has to be on the same wavelength and with the constant injuries/no settled 11 this is even harder to do. Factor in LvG himself has made many mistakes already and you get the football we're seeing.

This has nothing to do with not willing to work for the shirt, just players not being fully aware of what to do yet. This will click when given time, it always has in the past. The reason why (no offense) limited players like Fellaini and Young blossom under his guidance is because they get a few tasks. They don't have to think of solutions themselves, they've already been made before the match. The learning curve to play like LvG wants is extremely high, but once it's mastered by every player on the pitch it's a b**ch to play against. If one player fails to do his task however, say Herrera as a CDM'er tries to pass forward in a risky situation and loses the ball, everyone on the pitch is in the wrong position because they're not prepared for a CDM to lose the ball when they're thinking about attacking. This is why keeps banging on about balance, he needs players in every position who can follow his orders to perfection.

EDIT addition: When his creative players lose the ball, it's not a problem (unless it's too close to De Gea, where they shouldn't have lost the ball in the first place). The team knows where to be once a creative player is on the ball and they're prepared to defend. The problem lies purely within non-creative players losing the ball.

 

[Adebesi]

Box to box midfielders are as rare as hens teeth (to quote fergie). It's entirely possible there simply wasn't one on the market. It's not ilke defenders or even strikers where there's often a mid-table player having a good season that you can hoover up to do a short term job for you.

I make a point of discounting SAF's opinions on midfielders specifically, but I take your point.

 

[Borys]

I feel like this team is getting the shape and style LvG wants. We're slow and save, but possession based team devoided of risk. If that gets us top 4 finish than fine, I'm sure our style will evolve next season into something more exciting.

However, I don't think this style suits players like Di Maria. I think he was extremely poor last week, but if we want to play like that against lesser teams I reckon he will have more games like that. I hope we will use more counter attacking football against top teams because there's no chance we will score while playing so slow football. On the other hand this philosophy might just suit Januzaj, who looks a threat with overlapping rightback, because his dribbling is better on low speed. Di Maria is all about space, speed and quick direction change so he finds it difficult in this setup, especially if his crossing turned shit overnight.

Sometimes it feels like van Gaal wants us to play like Barca. And this is definitely not the right way with our current squad, our players are not enough technically gifted. Takes them too much time/touches to control the ball, not to mention Rooney or Di Maria who is very inconsistent with his touch and they will probably be the core of our team in the next few years.p

 

[NoPace]

I thought Rooney said something interesting over the weekend:

Which does explain some of our play.

Does it, though? Is throwing the immobile Falcao (and Van Persie together!) out there tiring out CB's? Herrera has been benched repeatedly this season and he's surely the footballer we have you would most expect to help tire out the opposition?

 

[ChrisG11]

Does it, though? Is throwing the immobile Falcao (and Van Persie together!) out there tiring out CB's? Herrera has been benched repeatedly this season and he's surely the footballer we have you would most expect to help tire out the opposition?

You think constantly moving around, side to side, backwards and forward for 90 minutes without the ball wouldn't just be physically, but mentally tiring?

 

[JUPITER]

You think constantly moving around, side to side, backwards and forward for 90 minutes without the ball wouldn't just be physically, but mentally tiring?

I think the point @NoPace was making is that we don't move the ball fast enough to tire anyone out.

Added to the fact that Van Gaal has consistently played 2 strikers who both move slower than pretty much any other striker in the league, and it's not really a formula for attrition.

 

[ChrisG11]

I think the point @NoPace was making is that we don't move the ball fast enough to tire anyone out.

Added to the fact that Van Gaal has consistently played 2 strikers who both move slower than pretty much any other striker in the league, and it's not really a formula for attrition.

I know exactly what he meant, the point I'm making is that even if we're playing a slow style, teams still have to be sharp and switched on otherwise we'd be finding openings all over the place. To be constantly moving around without the ball and maintaining that level of concentration, of course it will tire sides out.

 

[JUPITER]

I know exactly what he meant, the point I'm making is that even if we're playing a slow style, teams still have to be sharp and switched on otherwise we'd be finding openings all over the place. To be constantly moving around without the ball and maintaining that level of concentration, of course it will tire sides out.

I dunno... I mean most teams we've played against this season (including teams we've beaten) have looked pretty comfortable with our style of play.

What Barca did to City in the first half the other week and what we do are so different it's night and day.

We don't offer any penetration at all so the defences aren't moved around at all, and we move the ball so slowly that teams can defend against us pretty easily and also seem quite happy for us to have possession.

 

[ZDwyr]

Apart from the 3-4 creative players who can take risks/be unpredictable (Di Maria, Young, Rooney, RvP, Mata) Louis van Gaal is basically playing all the positions. The other players HAVE to do what he tells them to do, this is why likes to work with juice. They listen much better than established players, that's why he's fallen out with so many players in his carreer already. Footballers usually have a big ego (which isn't a negative trait) and don't like this. That just means you're not suited for LvG. Plenty of examples of players do like him though and find him a great coach.

He tells them where to be on the pitch, what they can and can't do (no dribbles from fullbacks, CDM'ers etcetera). Many players struggle with this at first and some will never learn this. I'm afraid Rafael is a player who can't perform like LvG wants him to. Not only do they have to know what they themselves can and can't do, they must know this from each and every teammate on the pitch. Passing to a fullback who is marked is pointless as the fullback has the instruction to pass it back for example. Taking in all this information: what to do when the opposition is in that shape, his teammate who can dribble is there, the player who can cross is there, the midfielder who has the task to run there etc. is extremely difficult to learn. The whole team has to be on the same wavelength and with the constant injuries/no settled 11 this is even harder to do. Factor in LvG himself has made many mistakes already and you get the football we're seeing.

This has nothing to do with not willing to work for the shirt, just players not being fully aware of what to do yet. This will click when given time, it always has in the past. The reason why (no offense) limited players like Fellaini and Young blossom under his guidance is because they get a few tasks. They don't have to think of solutions themselves, they've already been made before the match. The learning curve to play like LvG wants is extremely high, but once it's mastered by every player on the pitch it's a b**ch to play against. If one player fails to do his task however, say Herrera as a CDM'er tries to pass forward in a risky situation and loses the ball, everyone on the pitch is in the wrong position because they're not prepared for a CDM to lose the ball when they're thinking about attacking. This is why keeps banging on about balance, he needs players in every position who can follow his orders to perfection.

EDIT addition: When his creative players lose the ball, it's not a problem (unless it's too close to De Gea, where they shouldn't have lost the ball in the first place). The team knows where to be once a creative player is on the ball and they're prepared to defend. The problem lies purely within non-creative players losing the ball.

Interesting. Thanks for posting that.

 

[ChrisG11]

I dunno... I mean most teams we've played against this season (including teams we've beaten) have looked pretty comfortable with our style of play.

What Barca did to City in the first half the other week and what we do are so different it's night and day.

We don't offer any penetration at all so the defences aren't moved around at all, and we move the ball so slowly that teams can defend against us pretty easily and also seem quite happy for us to have possession.

I agree for the most part, and of course we could be a lot more effective. However, we do create more chances towards the end of games and get more space, especially when teams try and press us high up the field away from home in the first half. At home where teams sit back against us we've usually won so that would suggest it is working to some degree.

 

[Sweet Square]

I dunno... I mean most teams we've played against this season (including teams we've beaten) have looked pretty comfortable with our style of play.

What Barca did to City in the first half the other week and what we do are so different it's night and day.

We don't offer any penetration at all so the defences aren't moved around at all, and we move the ball so slowly that teams can defend against us pretty easily and also seem quite happy for us to have possession.

I would'nt say they were happy with us having possession, a good few times this season teams have tried to press us and after the first 10 minutes have conceded that it won't work(Hull being the biggest example of this). We are forcing our gameplay on to the other team which never happened last season, although I'll admit that at the moment it's hardly a great plan.

The biggest positive for me this season is that we haven't had a 'Galatasaray' moment where we looked completely beat for the whole 90 minutes. We've looked impotence and a rubbish at times but I can't remember this United under LVG looking second best in games this season.

Which is a huge improvement on last season.

Also as for the compressions with Barca, well yes we are clearly not as good as them but that's more of problem with your exceptions than what LVG is going at the club.

 

[MarkC]

Apart from the 3-4 creative players who can take risks/be unpredictable (Di Maria, Young, Rooney, RvP, Mata) Louis van Gaal is basically playing all the positions. The other players HAVE to do what he tells them to do, this is why likes to work with juice. They listen much better than established players, that's why he's fallen out with so many players in his carreer already. Footballers usually have a big ego (which isn't a negative trait) and don't like this. That just means you're not suited for LvG. Plenty of examples of players do like him though and find him a great coach.

He tells them where to be on the pitch, what they can and can't do (no dribbles from fullbacks, CDM'ers etcetera). Many players struggle with this at first and some will never learn this. I'm afraid Rafael is a player who can't perform like LvG wants him to. Not only do they have to know what they themselves can and can't do, they must know this from each and every teammate on the pitch. Passing to a fullback who is marked is pointless as the fullback has the instruction to pass it back for example. Taking in all this information: what to do when the opposition is in that shape, his teammate who can dribble is there, the player who can cross is there, the midfielder who has the task to run there etc. is extremely difficult to learn. The whole team has to be on the same wavelength and with the constant injuries/no settled 11 this is even harder to do. Factor in LvG himself has made many mistakes already and you get the football we're seeing.

This has nothing to do with not willing to work for the shirt, just players not being fully aware of what to do yet. This will click when given time, it always has in the past. The reason why (no offense) limited players like Fellaini and Young blossom under his guidance is because they get a few tasks. They don't have to think of solutions themselves, they've already been made before the match. The learning curve to play like LvG wants is extremely high, but once it's mastered by every player on the pitch it's a b**ch to play against. If one player fails to do his task however, say Herrera as a CDM'er tries to pass forward in a risky situation and loses the ball, everyone on the pitch is in the wrong position because they're not prepared for a CDM to lose the ball when they're thinking about attacking. This is why keeps banging on about balance, he needs players in every position who can follow his orders to perfection.

EDIT addition: When his creative players lose the ball, it's not a problem (unless it's too close to De Gea, where they shouldn't have lost the ball in the first place). The team knows where to be once a creative player is on the ball and they're prepared to defend. The problem lies purely within non-creative players losing the ball.

Good post. Easy to see you have a good knowledge of how Van Gaal works. Do you think a big problem is that people in England find it hard to understand such an advanced concept? Seems a lot of people judge him without any knowledge of exactly what he is trying to do. You can understand where Van Gaal gets his confidence as he knows how well his ideas can work but it is something that I think a lot of people will only begin to understand when we see it click.

Do you think Van Gaal underestimated how hard it would be to implement this Philosophy with English players who typically don't play well in overly tactical systems apart from the few who are good technically?

 

[NL Max]

Good post. Easy to see you have a good knowledge of how Van Gaal works. Do you think a big problem is that people in England find it hard to understand such an advanced concept? Seems a lot of people judge him without any knowledge of exactly what he is trying to do. You can understand where Van Gaal gets his confidence as he knows how well his ideas can work but it is something that I think a lot of people will only begin to understand when we see it click.

Do you think Van Gaal underestimated how hard it would be to implement this Philosophy with English players who typically don't play well in overly tactical systems apart from the few who are good technically?

His ways are very complex, even I don't fully know the ins and outs (he doesn't give out all his secrets obviously). Some may think he's daft and past it, but everything I've read about him gives me the impression he's an extremely intelligent man. Apart from the basics which I've mentioned he always knows the weak spots of the opponent and makes tweaks in his gameplan to best make use of that. Yes, we Manchester United will adapt to all opponents: Cambridge, Burnley or Arsenal it doesn't matter. Blind came out after the world cup and said van Gaal had predicted how every match would go before kickoff and that they were prepared for it. The tasks he gives to each player suits their strenghts: Fellaini will be there to receive a long ball, Rooney and Blackett can give Hollywood passes and RvP can shoot at goal from whatever position he pleases.

Louis van Gaal knows football is entertainment, but he's strictly about business. He believes in himself and lets nothing get in the way of that. If he makes a mistake, he will correct it. We've seen this countless times already this season, he's not stubborn at all. He knows that when his style of play is performed well that it is attacking football which the fans usually love. Although Manchester United fans will have to get used to possession and patience, not attack after attack without thought. We're nowhere near how he'd like us to be though, so don't worry just yet.

He saw what happened to Moyes though and I do think he indeed overrated our selection because of a great preseason. He soon found out the team and the players weren't as good and that the PL was different to what he's used to (more physical, he admitted to this). This left him in a spot of bother because he bought playes for a 352 formation which didn't work. If he wants to be here next season he's going to have to deliver, so he's build in extra safety. We play with caution because he now knows the team can't fully get to grips with what he wants from them. He's not going overboard and drop his methods completely though, that's something van Gaal will never do (as that would also mean the team learned nothing this year and that he's going to start from scratch next year). Exactly what he's done I'm not sure about, his teams when they're in transition are always hard to decipher. We're much slower but that's always the case when he first walks into a job, because the players aren't used to his ways. I don't think he deliberately tells them to slow down as that would be easy to defend against, but just told them to be 100% sure your pass reaches your man or something along those lines (complete speculation, no idea!). He's definately being pragmatic like Holland were at the worldcup though.

He probably gave alot of players a chance to earn their place in the team. He filled the most obvious holes and he couldn't buy a completely new team, because we've already seen so much changes last summer (too much change can be catastrophic for a team). He couldn't make his mind up about Evans/Jones/Smalling for example because they never really had a full season to prove themselves whilst they were all named to be the succesors(?) of Rio and Vidic. He had little time to asses each and every player thoroughly, but he did give them all a chance of at least 45 minutes. He had to make his mind up in that little time so he might have made some mistakes. Fletcher being good in preseason is one example, whilst he (sadly) couldn't deliver for us in the PL.

After this season we will see another clearout of players. That doesn't specifically mean that they're bad players or not United quality, but that they weren't good enough for van Gaal to play like he wants to. Any players who doesn't get along with him either will all leave aswell. We're in transition to a possession based playstyle, anyone not capable of this will be sold or have their contracts run down while they won't play.

 

[MarkC]

Can't say i'd disagree with any of that. It's good to see some posters who actually understand what is going on.

I like you am fairly optimistic. I don't understand Van Gaal to level you do but from what I have read so far I like his methods and the direction we are going in. I think what we are doing under Van Gaal isn't so much about being the best team in the PL but the best team in the world. Under Sir Alex winning in England with the football we all loved was never a problem. Apart from 99 we never succeded in Europe playing this way though. I said back in the finals against Barca our downfall both times(not as much the second) was Sir Alex felt the pressure to play football the correct manner for a final. In a semi we could adapt to teams like Barca as we saw in 08 and this would work but we could never go toe to toe.

If we can get the right players in the summer I think LVG has a good chance of taking us to that next level of being able to dominate in Europe, I think that is the ultimate aim. In the meantime we suffer in the PL while players learn his ways but the end result will be worth it IMO.

The only way we could ever hope to progress from the impossible task of replacing Sir Alex was in my opinion finding a manager who could really implement a style capable of winning in Europe consistently and Van Gaal seems the right man in this respect.

You make a good point about his willingness to address his own mistakes as well and I don't think he gets enough credit for this. I think he has listened to the fans criticism at times and without changing his ways completely I think he has tried to take it into account quite a few times.

 

[Water Melon]

Van Gaal is listening to the fans' criticism? Does it mean that Louis, a manager with top successful experience who trains his players day in day out, can not see what ordinary fans saw during 90 minutes? If that is the case, we are in trouble then.
Not being the best team in EPL but in the world, dominating in Europe, automatically means winning the EPL, unless we are talking about one-off cases like Liverpool under Benitez or Chelsea under Di Matteo.
If Van Gaal builds his own team from scratch and fails to deliver, we are in a serious troble. We will have spent around 250+million quid by that time and have a team of players who are trained in a certain way. Imagine how much time and money would the next manager need to change all this.
Lastly, there is no certain way of winning a competition. You face different opponents, at different climate conditions managed by coaches with their own "philosophies", so it is impossible to play guaranteed safe passes and possession is not always the key factor.
As said before, I can not see Van Gaal winning a competition where he faces Chelsea managed by Mou, which basically implies that as long as Mou here, we are not winning the league. Taking into account Van Gaal's age and Mou's position at Chelsea, it looks like Van Gaal will retire in couple of years probably taking us back into top 4, but that will probably be his only achievement. Hopefully, I am hugely mistaken, and LvG builds a winning machine, however, I have not any signs of that yet. May the posters above and LvG prove me wrong. Amen.

 

[ChrisG11]

Van Gaal is listening to the fans' criticism? Does it mean that Louis, a manager with top successful experience who trains his players day in day out, can not see what ordinary fans saw during 90 minutes? If that is the case, we are in trouble then.
Not being the best team in EPL but in the world, dominating in Europe, automatically means winning the EPL, unless we are talking about one-off cases like Liverpool under Benitez or Chelsea under Di Matteo.
If Van Gaal builds his own team from scratch and fails to deliver, we are in a serious troble. We will have spent around 250+million quid by that time and have a team of players who are trained in a certain way. Imagine how much time and money would the next manager need to change all this.
Lastly, there is no certain way of winning a competition. You face different opponents, at different climate conditions managed by coaches with their own "philosophies", so it is impossible to play guaranteed safe passes and possession is not always the key factor.
As said before, I can not see Van Gaal winning a competition where he faces Chelsea managed by Mou, which basically implies that as long as Mou here, we are not winning the league. Taking into account Van Gaal's age and Mou's position at Chelsea, it looks like Van Gaal will retire in couple of years probably taking us back into top 4, but that will probably be his only achievement. Hopefully, I am hugely mistaken, and LvG builds a winning machine, however, I have not any signs of that yet. May the posters above and LvG prove me wrong. Amen.

Who is the main concern for a football club? What is the reason Manchester United appoint managers, buy players etc? Appeasing the fans has to be on the agenda for van Gaal and he's tried to respond to our wishes to a certain degree this season. We've asked for Rooney to play upfront and for Herrera to play in midfield and that's what's happened the last few weeks. We wanted to play with wingers and that's what we attempted last game.

To predict the next point you'd make after that, there are certain things he has to implement himself that we don't agree with initially, in order to help us in the long term. We can moan about the style of football this year but in three years if we're winning trophies and playing expansive football then we'll be grateful. Some fans will even question why he didn't play that way once we start off, and that's something the manager has to deal with and that's where his knowledge significantly outweighs a clubs fan base. It's a thankless task though, because he will still be scrutinised by the public for doing something that is massively beneficial to Manchester United because the vast majority of fans don't understand what it is and why he's doing it. I firmly believe if he tried to play entertaining football from the outset we'd be worse of right now and we wouldn't be any happier, but a lot of us like to pretend otherwise.

Max has explained already about imbalances to the side, and that one big transfer window isn't enough to rectify all our problems, so he's improvised with his signings. They are good players that are adaptable to multiple system which allows him to change tactics should they not work out initially and allows them to fit into his short term plans as well as his long term ones. Are you particularly worried or inhappy about any of the permanent signings we've made so far? Because I think the general consensus is that they're good signings.

We've got to have a bit of faith that he knows what he's doing. Everything he's done so far has been logical and it's been effective, that is clear. We aim to get top 4 and we are lying in 4th, objective achieved thus far and I think I'll be saying the same thing at the end of the season. We've got some tough games coming up and I firmly believe that with him at the helm this season, they're opportunities to gain on our rivals rather than lose out.

 

[JUPITER]

I agree for the most part, and of course we could be a lot more effective. However, we do create more chances towards the end of games and get more space, especially when teams try and press us high up the field away from home in the first half. At home where teams sit back against us we've usually won so that would suggest it is working to some degree.

I would'nt say they were happy with us having possession, a good few times this season teams have tried to press us and after the first 10 minutes have conceded that it won't work(Hull being the biggest example of this). We are forcing our gameplay on to the other team which never happened last season, although I'll admit that at the moment it's hardly a great plan.

The biggest positive for me this season is that we haven't had a 'Galatasaray' moment where we looked completely beat for the whole 90 minutes. We've looked impotence and a rubbish at times but I can't remember this United under LVG looking second best in games this season.

Which is a huge improvement on last season.

Also as for the compressions with Barca, well yes we are clearly not as good as them but that's more of problem with your exceptions than what LVG is going at the club.

Both really good posts, I agree with lots of it.

On the bolded text - to go further, we've looked best, relatively speaking, against the best teams. Which has sometimes made me think of Van Gaal of a world class 'cup manager'. Something we'll soon find out in the Arsenal cup game!

 

[mazhar13]

@NL Max and @ChrisG11 pretty much echoed my sentiments regarding van Gaal so far. One big positive this season in relation to the last season is that we're actually starting to progress towards a more continental style, whilst we saw a regression in our footballing style and identity under Moyes.

He has made mistakes so far, but he's definitely rectifying them, and as a result, we are continuously seeing signs of progress. For example, compare Ander Herrera at the start of the season to Ander Herrera now. He's become more suited to a #8 role than he was at the start of the season, and he's developed more discipline in his game than he had before. Look at how well Fellaini, Young, Valencia, and the youngsters have adapted to his ways and increased their contribution as a result. Look at how much Smalling's confidence has increased on the ball.

The only issue I had with van Gaal is that he was slow at figuring out how to adequately set us up. He had a similar issue at Bayern Munich at the beginning, but he settled onto his best side relatively quickly, there. I'm surprised at how long it's taken him to really learn our best setup at this time, and even then, I'm not sure if he even knows how to best set us up at the moment. Yes, we've had injuries, but he sees the players in training unlike us, so why was it that he had to put Fellaini back to defensive midfield and then shift him up forward, move di Maria up front before putting him back into midfield and then out wide, move Rooney to midfield after playing him up front and then putting him back up front, and change from 3 at the back, to 4 at the back, to 3 at the back, and then to 4 at the back? I guess that's what happens when he's given little time in pre-season to learn about the players at his disposal. I believe he'll figure out how to best set us up next summer, but as of right now, we'll have to deal with this rollercoaster ride of changes.

 

[Water Melon]

Who is the main concern for a football club? What is the reason Manchester United appoint managers, buy players etc? Appeasing the fans has to be on the agenda for van Gaal and he's tried to respond to our wishes to a certain degree this season. We've asked for Rooney to play upfront and for Herrera to play in midfield and that's what's happened the last few weeks. We wanted to play with wingers and that's what we attempted last game.

To predict the next point you'd make after that, there are certain things he has to implement himself that we don't agree with initially, in order to help us in the long term. We can moan about the style of football this year but in three years if we're winning trophies and playing expansive football then we'll be grateful. Some fans will even question why he didn't play that way once we start off, and that's something the manager has to deal with and that's where his knowledge significantly outweighs a clubs fan base. It's a thankless task though, because he will still be scrutinised by the public for doing something that is massively beneficial to Manchester United because the vast majority of fans don't understand what it is and why he's doing it. I firmly believe if he tried to play entertaining football from the outset we'd be worse of right now and we wouldn't be any happier, but a lot of us like to pretend otherwise.

Max has explained already about imbalances to the side, and that one big transfer window isn't enough to rectify all our problems, so he's improvised with his signings. They are good players that are adaptable to multiple system which allows him to change tactics should they not work out initially and allows them to fit into his short term plans as well as his long term ones. Are you particularly worried or inhappy about any of the permanent signings we've made so far? Because I think the general consensus is that they're good signings.

We've got to have a bit of faith that he knows what he's doing. Everything he's done so far has been logical and it's been effective, that is clear. We aim to get top 4 and we are lying in 4th, objective achieved thus far and I think I'll be saying the same thing at the end of the season. We've got some tough games coming up and I firmly believe that with him at the helm this season, they're opportunities to gain on our rivals rather than lose out.

Do you really think that LvG started to play Wayne upfront and is using Herrera more often, because the fans want him to? No way. He is doing this, because he is finally realizing that this is the way to go. RvP has been average from the start of the season, all fans know this. If he is benched by the end of the season, will this mean that it was the pressure of fans that lead to it or Van Gaal will finally have seen that RvP is not good enough to lead the line anymore? The fans are appeased by the results that the team gets. That is the ultimate priority for the owners, Board and fans of the club. Chelsea can win things by playing in their own style, Liverpool apply another tactic, Wenger has his own vision; the bottom line is the result by the end of the season. You can not win in a top league by playing anti-football anyways. So all I am saying that I have not seen anything yet to suggest that LvG has it what it takes to put us back to the very top of English football. We will see where we finish by the end of the season, and I do think that we have better squads than Arsenal and Liverpool. Missing top 4 will be the end of LvG at United. He will not be measured by his theoretical understanding of football, he will be judged by where we are after 38 games played in EPL. LvG can spend 100+ million quid each season, which is a lot of money. The Board are doing everything on their part, time for Van Gaal to prove his worth.

 

[Cassidy]

TBH I have calmed down quite a bit, although many of his decisions have pissed me off. He is obviously experimenting.
The thing that is clear though, is that he always seems to know what he is looking for, where that is more physicality in the middle, more pace up top etc.
So in that sense, I'm interested to see what will happen when hes able to get what he needs in the summer, he obviously a man with a plan.
I hope we can get top4, we're still there, I don't want to go another season without the UCL.

 

[JUPITER]

TBH I have calmed down quite a bit, although many of his decisions have pissed me off. He is obviously experimenting.
The thing that is clear though, is that he always seems to know what he is looking for, where that is more physicality in the middle, more pace up top etc.
So in that sense, I'm interested to see what will happen when hes able to get what he needs in the summer, he obviously a man with a plan.
I hope we can get top4, we're still there, I don't want to go another season without the UCL.

He doesn't seem to know what formation, line up, or style of football we should be playing though.

Without his pedigree I really doubt anyone would be impressed with anything he's done here.

 

[Ramshock]

He doesn't seem to know what formation, line up, or style of football we should be playing though.

Without his pedigree I really doubt anyone would be impressed with anything he's done here.

I want to thank @Raoul for closing your poll thread and to tell you that you need to go back and look at indifferent form under Fergie. 2002-05 is a great example if you are 11 years old.

And your last line about is pedigree is just nonsense. He wouldnt have gotten the job without his pedigree. David Moyes was an aberration and anointed by Fergie, he wouldnt have been anywhere near the job normally.

 

[ravelston]

I feel we're right on the edge of being able to break out. We're #1 in terms of time of possession and passing accuracy. We've got 9 players in the whoscored.com top 50 for the Prem (Chelsea and City each have 7, Arsenal 6 and Liverpool 5). Whether we like statistical rating systems or not, they aren't inherently biased so we've got to assume that our guys are doing something right. What we're lacking is the cohesion in the last third and, most importantly, the confidence to take shots when they present themselves. A couple of good games could push us over the top, particularly if Falcao starts scoring. I'm immensely optimistic.

 

[golden_blunder]

I feel we're right on the edge of being able to break out. We're #1 in terms of time of possession and passing accuracy. We've got 9 players in the whoscored.com top 50 for the Prem (Chelsea and City each have 7, Arsenal 6 and Liverpool 5). Whether we like statistical rating systems or not, they aren't inherently biased so we've got to assume that our guys are doing something right. What we're lacking is the cohesion in the last third and, most importantly, the confidence to take shots when they present themselves. A couple of good games could push us over the top, particularly if Falcao starts scoring. I'm immensely optimistic.

a stat i read in yesterdays mirror.

at the start of the season we were averaging over 3 chances created per game.

now, we are average 2 chances created per game

Stats.