Trump and Brexit: What has happened to the world?

Randall Flagg said:
Well her emails was big news

Just because it came to nothing, They cant exactly ignore it

But the general tone throughout hasnt even been close to even.
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It was big news but you cant say the media was biased towards her, the media relied on the stupidly inept fecking pollsters. That was the mistake they made. America just elected a multi time bankrupted possible rapist/child abuser who is close to Vladimir Putin but no lets worry about emails.
 
Untied said:
This election is low paid workers finally fighting back against the elites that have taken them from granted for too long.



Oh wait. No it wasn't. It was racism.
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Oh wow. If that's accurate...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
People are sick and tired of being called stupid and racist, so they vote in arguably the most stupid and racist president in the history of their country.

That'll show 'em...
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Well obviously thats not the point

They clearly think he has a chance to change their lives for the better. Like bringing jobs to rural areas. If I lived in rural america and someone was making these promises, sure I would be sceptical...but Id probably seriously consider voting trump in the hope he follows through,

They are sick of being labelled racists, so stayed silent but now we see these results
 
Full Member said:
So older people should only get half a vote?
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How about no vote? You don't get to vote for the first 18 years of your life, so apply the same rule to the last 10 years of the average life span in a given country.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Well obviously thats not the point

They clearly think he has a chance to change their lives for the better. Like bringing jobs to rural areas. If I lived in rural america and someone was making these promises, sure I would be sceptical...but Id probably seriously consider voting trump in the hope he follows through,

They are sick of being labelled racists, so stayed silent but now we see these results
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He spun them a load of auld shite and they swallowed it. I get that when life is tough you're much more likely to believe in magic beans (or walls on the Mexican border, or hundreds of millions per week invested in the NHS, whatever).

What I don't get is how anyone can believe these lies coming from such a blatant arsehole, who is clearly incapable of doing the job he know needs to do and hasn't a fecking hope of delivering all the shite he promised them.

I mean, my incredulity doesn't matter. They bought his shtick hook, line and sinker. Just find it weird the way people on here are spinning this as some sort of victory for people who have been unfairly accused of being stupid and racist. Voting in Trump as president just makes the whole of America seem even more stupid and racist than it did 24 hours ago. Whether or not that is actually the case.
 
Skills said:
How about no vote? You don't get to vote for the first 18 years of your life, so apply the same rule to the last 10 years of the average life span in a given country.
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Sometimes I cant work out if people are being serious or not
 
Jerch said:
No you are ignorrant because you think that people who thinks differently as you are stupid.
Democracy, equality and freedom of speech is all about different opinions and different people but when conservative people express their opinion they are to often called stupid by liberals. I often ask myself how the people who "should" support equality and freedom of speech even more then any other act so intolerant to other opinions from people who think differently.
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I agree, too often rather than challenging the views expressed the group is labelled stupid/racist making any discussion pointless.

Labour does the exact same thing over here, no one is going to vote for a party that treats them with disdain.
 
hobbers said:
What about those being labelled obics and ists for opinions which clearly are neither?

Is being anti illegal immigration racist or xenophobic? No. Is being against the regressive values of Islam? No.

And if the only answer from the left in debates such as those is "the other side are stupid racists" it's no small surprise they lose these debates emphatically.
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Watch one Trump rally and think about this post again.
 
Untied said:
This election is low paid workers finally fighting back against the elites that have taken them from granted for too long.



Oh wait. No it wasn't. It was racism.
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So from that alone you can deduce with certainty that racism was the primary motivator that saw Trump elected?

People in higher wage brackets could be motivated by many other issues, they tend to be staunchly anti Obamacare for example, don't want climate change policy interfering with their lifestyles and so on.
 
hobbers said:
More a beneficiary of it but yes, and I think in many ways it played into his favour.

"I exploited tax loopholes to protect my businesses. Hillary Clinton protects these loopholes because of all the other rich folk like me who benefit from the pay to play she offers. These are the only people she works for. "

I actually think that was one of his only strong lines of argument in the debates, definitely one of the most effective for winning over blue collar workers.
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So, he can continue to exploit those loopholes, only now he has more control over what they look like too.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Well obviously thats not the point

They clearly think he has a chance to change their lives for the better. Like bringing jobs to rural areas. If I lived in rural america and someone was making these promises, sure I would be sceptical...but Id probably seriously consider voting trump in the hope he follows through,

They are sick of being labelled racists, so stayed silent but now we see these results
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By skeptical, I am assuming, you would be interested in looking for proper plans like How thats going to be done?.

He did feckall to answer those important questions. He spouted some shite and people bought it... Just like Farage and co...
 
bleedred said:
By skeptical, I am assuming, you would be interested in looking for proper plans like How thats going to be done?.

He did feckall to answer those important questions. He spouted some shite and people bought it... Just like Farage and co...
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Still, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Some guy in middle america living in a town that has gone through the shitter because its local factory / mine or whatever closed down. The town relied on this pretty much 100%

If some guy was promising to fix this, I would at least give him the time of day
 
Ramshock said:
When it genuinely affects other peoples lives then yes there should be competency standards when it comes to both running for elected office and voting for said office.
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Totally agree, How many people in the world have lost jobs for saying stuff half as despicable as what Trump has said..
 
11101 said:
This. The aggression with which the liberal establishment and media has labelled anyone who disagrees with them as stupid/racist/whatever has just hardened people's views and pushed them underground.

Those actions have also made it so easy for the right to turn anyone who wasn't sure which way to go.
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Most the media in the UK is right wing
 
Classical Mechanic said:
So from that alone you can deduce with certainty that racism was the primary motivator that saw Trump elected?

People in higher wage brackets could be motivated by many other issues, they tend to be staunchly anti Obamacare for example, don't want climate change policy interfering with their lifestyles and so on.
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Not racism so much as selfishness.

God forbid climate change policy interfering with their lifestyles and all that.
 
sullydnl said:
Explain this to me.

I don't just mean "people are stupid" or "people are racist". People have always been stupid and racist. So where has this regressive surge come from? Also, what the hell comes next?

Btw, if you don't think Brexit and Trump are part of the same thing, just stop. Seriously.
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The world has been shrinking since the turn of the mellenium. It's just started to grow a lot bigger.
On the point of them being the same thing. I think they have both shown a large antiglobalisation movement in both countries.
People like their national identity and want to feel like they belong to something.
They can't or don't want to envisage belonging to something bigger than their own nation.
 
11101 said:
The ridiculous comparisons to Hitler haven't helped either.
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Just out of interest why are the comparisons ridiculous and not instead serious issues. The comments Trump has made about the whole of the Muslim faith are every bit the same as Hitler and the Jews. Do i think we will see a mass genocide? No. But history is there to be learned from so we do not repeat mistakes and yet there are so many ways that Trump and Hitler are alike. It just reads like your burying your head in the sand.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Still, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Some guy in middle america living in a town that has gone through the shitter because its local factory / mine or whatever closed down. The town relied on this pretty much 100%

If some guy was promising to fix this, I would at least give him the time of day
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The problem is he promised them shit that he very obviously can't deliver on.

Hillary gave them a hard truth in that those old jobs aren't coming back but she has plans to bring new ones and provide alternatives to their situation. Trump then ran adverts in those regions cutting off the second half of her comment to make it sound like she just said the jobs are gone and that's it.

He's lied to and manipulated these people.
 
Globalisation, mass immigration, a decline in the Western world standard of living and a rise of terrorism in Europe and the US had a deep effect over people. Its easy for the elites to criticise the commoners. They aren't the one facing the problems.

I believe that the first thing that will happen will be to revise the UN refugee/asylum seeker rights. There's plenty of support on that coming from Russia, Eastern Europe, Italy, Saudi Arabia etc. I can see the UK and the US joining the fray on that. I can see Australia's immigration policy becoming mainstream in most of the Western World.

The EU will be stupid not to push for more integration including the EU army. If Putin decides to act, the US will not be there to bail them out this time round
 
hobbers said:
I don't need to.

Most of America did not turn up at a Trump rally. But most of America will hold those two opinions i mentioned, both liberals and conservatives. Because they're simply common sense. Despite this they are never addressed in any political debate because one side is only ever interested in contorting them in to an attack on the demographics rather than engaging the arguments.



I agree. Incidentally since brains ain't fully formed until 25 I'd have that as the minimum voting age.
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Most of America saw said Trump rallies at least once

As for the age minimum theres plenty of teenagers who are far more intelligent and grounded than so called grown adults. Id worry more about competency than age.
 
Smores said:
I agree, too often rather than challenging the views expressed the group is labelled stupid/racist making any discussion pointless.
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Not true. The group has been challenged on specific policies and methods of improving the state of affairs and I'm yet to hear many well thought out specifics, from Trump or people that support him!

Trump's policies are ignorant. His attitude towards NATO and Putin is concerning and I don't see how anyone in the west could approve of that. He wants rid of Obamacare but hasn't come up with any suggestions on it's replacement and how it might look. He thinks Global Warming is a hoax and wants to repeal the good work already done. He blames China for the drop in manufacturing jobs and wants to impose silly tarrifs when it's hugely down to automation which wont bring back the jobs.

I genuinely think that a large number of voters don't know enough to make an educated decision and protest votes are very dangerous. Even sat in work now listening to the discussions and those that lean towards Trump have literally nothing to say. Except the usual ...

"People are fed up"

Of what?

"The Government and being told what to do"

Okay, what specifically don't you like being told and what about the Government?

"..."
 
Classical Mechanic said:
So from that alone you can deduce with certainty that racism was the primary motivator that saw Trump elected?

People in higher wage brackets could be motivated by many other issues, they tend to be staunchly anti Obamacare for example, don't want climate change policy interfering with their lifestyles and so on.
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Now all rich people are racist and misoginist too because they earn a lot of money? This is scary.
 
TrustInJanuzai said:
Just out of interest why are the comparisons ridiculous and not instead serious issues. The comments Trump has made about the whole of the Muslim faith are every bit the same as Hitler and the Jews. Do i think we will see a mass genocide? No. But history is there to be learned from so we do not repeat mistakes and yet there are so many ways that Trump and Hitler are alike. It just reads like your burying your head in the sand.
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It's ridiculous because a few comments here and there are a million miles away from what the Nazis did. Labelling him as a mini-Hitler is a lazy attempt to discredit him that has backfired spectacularly. Just as labelling Brexit voters as racist/stupid, or Conservative voters as racist/insular did. It drives people underground and hardens people's views.

Btw I don't support Trump. If I was American I would have voted Democrat. But it's not difficult to see why so many did vote for him.
 
Untied said:
This election is low paid workers finally fighting back against the elites that have taken them from granted for too long.



Oh wait. No it wasn't. It was racism.
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Terrible analysis.

Surely unless you break that down further into education, race and class distinctions etc. you won't get a full picture of peoples motivations. It's this type of see twitter number > jump to conclusion > accuse of racism, lack of rigor that is indicative of the bankrupt political discourse. Maybe students from wealthy backgrounds account for a decent amount of that blue, who knows. 41% is still a significant amount and if they are all low paid workers finally fighting back against the elites that have taken them from granted for too long then the point is made emphatically, what was the swing? Rich people vote republican, no shit.
 
Drifter said:
Agree with Bill Maher .People are stupid. I've always been about people power .But they have been so dumbed down and disconnected from politics .I don't think they are informed enough to make a decision.
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People are stupid? Are you a person? That makes you stupid. That means one ought not to give much value to the intelligence of your statements. Such as the one you just made with odd punctuation.
 
Rado_N said:
The problem is he promised them shit that he very obviously can't deliver on.

Hillary gave them a hard truth in that those old jobs aren't coming back but she has plans to bring new ones and provide alternatives to their situation. Trump then ran adverts in those regions cutting off the second half of her comment to make it sound like she just said the jobs are gone and that's it.

He's lied to and manipulated these people.
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If he has, and you could well be correct he will be destroyed in 4 years. If ever a man had to live up to his promises, it is right now

So I am taking to lets wait and see approach and also avoiding insulting those who voted for him
 
11101 said:
This. The aggression with which the liberal establishment and media has labelled anyone who disagrees with them as stupid/racist/whatever has just hardened people's views and pushed them underground.

Those actions have also made it so easy for the right to turn anyone who wasn't sure which way to go.
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Exactly. The thought police may have their way on social media but they can't control how people tick a box.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Pretty much.

I think there's a few things going on here. There's this section of society that you speak about which are angry at the status quo. They're continually shafted, they live in areas with high unemployment, see large groups of foreign migrants moving in and egged on by right wing media they look think there are simple answers to complex problems.

Then there's an older generation who let's be honest are old enough to remember black people not being allowed to vote. It's too much change for them to take in such a short period of time. They don't like being told what to say and think and this in some ways is them voting to turn back the clock.

I think the sleeping giant has been awakened and these people (particularly the first group) have come out (for this and the EU referendum) to vote in numbers that nobody predicted not helped by a younger generation who haven't been engaged or motivated to vote either way.

I called Brexit because I could feel the mood in the country. This one is more of a head scratcher though as despite everything he's promised I still struggle to understand the logic in voting in a billionaire proud that he has managed to avoid taxes and expecting him to give a damn about the likes of Cletus in Bumfeck Arizona. What a woefully misjudged campaign from the Democrats too though. They've got to accept that they made a massive mistake pushing Hillary over Bernie. That can't have helped. It's just sad when in a supposed democracy people are forced into voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

What I hope from all of this is that there is some real political change of the back of these 2 monumental events. I've never known a world as divided as it is now, literally across households in many places. Perhaps we need to go backwards before we can all move forwards. I don't know.
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Anger, resentment and the feeling of being hard done by are as powerful motivators as any (as the Americans now have soundly demonstrated), but nothing will ever change there unless there is a radical cultural and economical change.

This type of Laissez Faire capitalism (IA "The American Dream") they seem to favor does increase production and does create a stupendous amount of wealth for a select few, but it also fecks over a lot of people in the process and it seems this "angry mob" never is going to realize it's them that getting shafted. The Cold War really fecked them up bad, because any progressive or even mildly socialist solution is immediately dismissed as some sort of commie plot and as long as this mentality prevails in such a large scale of the population, any real change will be impossible.

Just look at "Obama Care". I get that the republicans in House and Congress did everything they could to stop it, they really did not need any motivation, but the scary part was the hordes of poor people who went out into the streets to protest it. I mean, why would you deny basic healthcare for yourself? Do you want to get fecked over by some insurance company and either die or get buried in debt? It just boggles the mind.

it's much the same as with guns really. Even fairly intellectual and well educated people seem hard wired to believe that virtually no gun control can have absolutely NO correlation with gun violence and high murder rates. NONE WHAT SO EVER. COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE.

Getting on a bit of a rant here, but seeing these poor souls do this makes me feel like they are trying to mend a sinking ship by ripping out more planks and at the same time beating each other to death with said planks
 
McUnited said:
People are stupid? Are you a person? That makes you stupid. That means one ought not to give much value to the intelligence of your statements. Such as the one you just made with odd punctuation.
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Incorrect.

You've heard of the wisdom of crowds? Well the opposite has been arguably proven over the course of this year. Not every person who votes for Trump is stupid but acting together, in huge numbers, they made a stupid decision. Obviously, this doesn't mean that every single one of them is a stupid person. People have different strengths and weaknesses, intellectually. Someone who votes for Trump could be very clever about a bunch of different stuff. Sadly, this doesn't mean they won't make a stupid decision in the polling booth.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Still, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Some guy in middle america living in a town that has gone through the shitter because its local factory / mine or whatever closed down. The town relied on this pretty much 100%

If some guy was promising to fix this, I would at least give him the time of day
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What if that guy is Bill cosby??...I know its a hyperbole, but I am saying is that you should not just be looking into the promises, also at the person making it...
 
11101 said:
It's ridiculous because a few comments here and there are a million miles away from what the Nazis did. Labelling him as a mini-Hitler is a lazy attempt to discredit him that has backfired spectacularly. Just as labelling Brexit voters as racist/stupid, or Conservative voters as racist/insular did. It drives people underground and hardens people's views.

Btw I don't support Trump. If I was American I would have voted Democrat. But it's not difficult to see why so many did vote for him.
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Generally, the comparisons are not between what Trump said and what the Nazis did. Because that, indeed, would be ridiculous, Trump isn't even in power yet.

But the situation, the motivation of the voters and the messages he sends are eerily similar. Hitler promised jobs to a disillusioned working class in an economic crisis, he had very strong anti-establishment sentiments; nativism, nationalism and good old racial supremacy were key components of his message.

That does not mean that Trump will attack Poland or more probably, Mexico any time soon. Nor will he necessarily start rounding up Jews or Muslims. But there is an undeniable similarity in both the historical circumstances and in the style and message of those two feckers.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In an attempt to prove that it's unfair to label them as stupid and racist, the American public has voted for the most stupid and racist president in the history of their country.

That'll show 'em...
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Mozza said:
Most the media in the UK is right wing
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Not true. Unless you're referring to the tabloids as most of the media. Take a look at the Independent or the Guardian for some perspective.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Incorrect.

You've heard of the wisdom of crowds? Well the opposite has been arguably proven over the course of this year. Not every person who votes for Trump is stupid but acting together, in huge numbers, they made a stupid decision. Obviously, this doesn't mean that every single one of them is a stupid person. People have different strengths and weaknesses, intellectually. Someone who votes for Trump could be very clever about a bunch of different stuff. Sadly, this doesn't mean they won't make a stupid decision in the polling booth.
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That applies equally to both sides.
 
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