Trump and Brexit: What has happened to the world?

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, what you say on the campaign trail and what actually happens are vastly different, Obama pledged to close Guantanamo and end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If Clinton had won the election and the Republicans had won the Senate and the House (which they did), they would just continue to do what they have been doing for the last 8 months and refuse to pass anything the Democrats put forward. They threatened to do just that like 2 weeks ago, by promising to block the nominee for the supreme court for the next 4 years.

Democracy is weird sometimes but the Republicans are totally in charge now they don't really have anyone to blame but themselves for what comes next.
 
Well for example..

• Moving to a more renewable energy future and building the renewable plants in coal country.

Trump in turn says climate change is a hoax & wants to reopen the mines. He has given zero information on how on Earth this would be plausible, truth is... it's not.

• cooperation taxes- fairer tax system
• criminal justice system
• gun violence protection

Etc etc etc


If you watch any Hilary speech or any debate or just read the quick front page of her campaign, you know what Hilary is planning to do and more importantly how. Trump is promising things that make zero sense and hence can't go into detail on how he plans to keep these promises.

I'm not arguing who has the better policies, just whose policies where more known to the average American voter. Most of Clinton's campaign was spent persuading people NOT to vote for Trump rather than why they should vote for her.

On a side note, I fear for the prospects of a greener future.
 
Trump (and Brexit) appealed on a gloriously simplistic levels to two distinct demographics. People who want to turn the clock back to a time when life was simpler and better. And people who think that a protest vote is the first step to tearing the whole thing down and starting all over again. Nobody is interested in boring solutions to the woes of the world that actually reflect reality. Stuff like "it's complicated, we're not sure how to fix it or even if it can be fixed but let's at least try not to turn on each other". They want simple solutions and they want them now. Even though life doesn't work that way.
When Michael Gove said people were fed up of experts, I think he might've been more on the money than either himself or the rest of us realised.
 
This country is not ready for a socialist, whether he puts a name in front of it or not. He would've gotten crushed.

Not to mention the antisemitism would have gotten a lot louder.
 
When people say Bernie would have won it, I am just curious which voting group would he have won more of??
 
Trump (and Brexit) appealed on a gloriously simplistic levels to two distinct demographics. People who want to turn the clock back to a time when life was simpler and better. And people who think that a protest vote is the first step to tearing the whole thing down and starting all over again. Nobody is interested in boring solutions to the woes of the world that actually reflect reality. Stuff like "it's complicated, we're not sure how to fix it or even if it can be fixed but let's at least try not to turn on each other". They want simple solutions and they want them now. Even though life doesn't work that way.

Add up the numbers of people who hold those two radically different world views and you can win a two horse race.

Of course, an inevitable consequence of selling people pipe dreams is the fact that people won't get what they voted for. Nobody can turn back time and helping power hungry megalomaniacs achieve their political ambitions is the worst possible way to try to take power away from the elite.

There is a lot of truth in this. Its how I also see it.
The only thing is that you cannot under estimate how desperate/frustrated/pissed off people are, especially since 2008, when the establishment royally fecked everyone of these people.

I just hope that some of them now start actually listening, it is hard but there are solutions and these people know there are solutions. They know that the elite don't want to make those changes because for once in their lives they are going to have to hurt their own self interests.

The issue is though that because of all this there is a vacuum that has been created and when that happens, all sorts of evil can fill it and take over. This is what I think we're seeing with all these far right movements.

As for the selling of pipe dreams, many will be disappointed , however I also think many will not care because they never believed the lies anyway, they are out to burn down the establishment by any means. Its not the right way to take power from the elite, but its the only way they can see of doing it now after years of trusting the political process.

Its a shit show tbh, one can only hope the political elites start listening, else its only going to get worse.
 
Considering how high the numbers were for people voting for change, I think he'd have won a hell of a lot of votes.

I beleve a huge amount of people voted Trump as a "anything but the norm" vote.

But trump is exactly the opposite of that. A tax dodging white billionaire. The anti-establishment rhetoric fails to consider that..
 
These populist right wing movements have managed to usurp the language of freedom, democracy and republicanism while claiming to faithfully represent "the people's will". In contrast to "Project Fear", we have "Project Victimhood"

"The people" will be sold down the river.
 
When people say Bernie would have won it, I am just curious which voting group would he have won more of??
The lazy young ones who are Democratic but didn't like that much Hillary. Not sure if he would have done as well as Hillary with the center-left though.
 
The choice to not vote for an ultra right-wing sociopathic idiot?

In my opinion, the word "choice" might hinder a full understanding of the situation. Whatever decision a voter makes, it follows from the way she is in a particular situation. Ultimately people do not "choose" the way they are; they are shaped by their genetics and the environment they grow in. The word "choice" posits some obscure capacity to transcend one's state, and might give way to reactions of blame. And blame is the last thing we need right now. There is probably no easy analysis of the situation, and it will certainly require to merge several perspectives (human nature and social/economic/cultural/... environment). When apprehended under these factors, the actions of Trump's voters might not seem as baffling as first assumed.
 
In my opinion, the word "choice" might hinder a full understanding of the situation. Whatever decision a voter makes, it follows from the way she is in a particular situation. Ultimately people do not "choose" the way they are; they are shaped by their genetics and the environment they grow in. The word "choice" posits some obscure capacity to transcend one's state, and might give way to reactions of blame. And blame is the last thing we need right now. There is probably no easy analysis of the situation, and it will certainly require to merge several perspectives (human nature and social/economic/cultural/... environment). When apprehended under these factors, the actions of Trump's voters might not seem as baffling as first assumed.

Well now you're going down the Sam Harris route of there being no such thing as free will. An interesting philosophical debate but taken to its logical conclusion society has no right to punish rapists or paedophiles. So let's not go there.
 
Well now you're going down the Sam Harris route of there being no such thing as free will. An interesting philosophical debate but taken to its logical conclusion society has no right to punish rapists or paedophiles. So let's not go there.

I don't think the OP is talking about not having free will. I believe its talking about how people in a certain social/economic/cultural/... environment view may be different and so the issues which move them and what the choice is for them, is very different to what you see as the choice.
 
I don't think the OP is talking about not having free will. I believe its talking about how people in a certain social/economic/cultural/... environment view may be different and so the issues which move them and what the choice is for them, is very different to what you see as the choice.

Well the truth is that they would have been influenced by a myriad of reasons and it would be hard to generalize the reasons, just as the same with brexit.
 
Explain this to me.

I don't just mean "people are stupid" or "people are racist". People have always been stupid and racist. So where has this regressive surge come from? Also, what the hell comes next?

Btw, if you don't think Brexit and Trump are part of the same thing, just stop. Seriously.

The pc (politically correct) era is finished

Dust of history would say Hegel

I can predict Kayne West for president in 2020

#Kayne2020
 
The fact that people like you automatically assume and label people that disagree with you are stupid or racist.
That's a huge part of your answer. People are sick of being told what to think and who they should be by people who believe they're better than them.

Maybe they should stop saying racist things and voting for racist candidates then?

I'm fed up with this line of argument. It's the very fact that racism has become acceptable political discourse that's the real problem.
 
I don't think the OP is talking about not having free will. I believe its talking about how people in a certain social/economic/cultural/... environment view may be different and so the issues which move them and what the choice is for them, is very different to what you see as the choice.

I was being a bit glib tbf. Mainly because I'm a fan of Sam Harris's theory. And @Werewolf 's point was reasonable. I still think it's a cop out to imply that anyone was "forced" to vote for Trump, no matter how dire their circumstances.
 
Why am I not surprised by this outcome

The same type of voters voted for Trump as for Brexit.
A large portion of which are white, older generation, poorly educated and/or xenophobic who feel disenfranchised, there are also idealists and those that reject the status quo and think for some reason the grass is greener on the other side.

2017 will show if these advocates of "change" will start to fulfil what they promised, The Brexiters have not started very well, see how far Trump gets.
Of course when things start to go wrong it will be someone else's fault.

When things don't go the way those who voted for Trump or Brexit expect, what happens then?
 
I was being a bit glib tbf. Mainly because I'm a fan of Sam Harris's theory. And @Werewolf 's point was reasonable. I still think it's a cop out to imply that anyone was "forced" to vote for Trump, no matter how dire their circumstances.

Yes I agree.
I just think that if people keep dismissing it instead of trying to understand it, its only going to get worse.
 
Why am I not surprised by this outcome

The same type of voters voted for Trump as for Brexit.
A large portion of which are white, older generation, poorly educated and/or xenophobic who feel disenfranchised, there are also idealists and those that reject the status quo and think for some reason the grass is greener on the other side.

2017 will show if these advocates of "change" will start to fulfil what they promised, The Brexiters have not started very well, see how far Trump gets.
Of course when things start to go wrong it will be someone else's fault.

When things don't go the way those who voted for Trump or Brexit expect, what happens then?

That's the million dollar question. And it's inevitable we'll find out because both campaigns were won with a whole clatter of empty promises, that will never be delivered upon.

My bet is that external forces will be blamed, yet again. Most likely other countries. And we all know where that ends...
 
Maybe they should stop saying racist things and voting for racist candidates then?

I'm fed up with this line of argument. It's the very fact that racism has become acceptable political discourse that's the real problem.

I think this is part of the problem though.
For instance if you have a negative view on mass immigration then you are labelled a racist, even though you may not have said anything racist, or even be racists, you are still seen as racist.
In politics people just don't want to have proper debates around certain issues, and it leaves space for the racists to take over
 
I think this is part of the problem though.
For instance if you have a negative view on mass immigration then you are labelled a racist, even though you may not have said anything racist, or even be racists, you are still seen as racist.
In politics people just don't want to have proper debates around certain issues, and it leaves space for the racists to take over

Which would be all fine and dandy if Trump had proposed a 'proper debate' on immigration but everything he said on the topic is demonstrably racist.

FWIW I think the 'can't talk about immigration without being seen as racist' line of thinking is terribly overstated.
 
Failure to make a positive case for the other option leading to the 'extreme' position's base being far more energised than the moderate one
 
That's the million dollar question. And it's inevitable we'll find out because both campaigns were won with a whole clatter of empty promises, that will never be delivered upon.

My bet is that external forces will be blamed, yet again. Most likely other countries. And we all know where that ends...

Yes, feels like we've been taken back in time, think we're around 1927 at the moment.
 
Thought this summary from the FT was bang on:

Behold the bonfire of the certainties. In combination with June’s Brexit vote, the political reaction that many assumed would hit in 2009 has finally come to pass. The US wants to reverse globalisation, as does the UK, while France, Germany and Italy all have a chance to upend the status quo at the ballot box in the coming months.


The certainties that had reassured the investors and financiers since the era of Thatcher and Reagan and that are now in question include a global commitment to free trade, independent central banks, a financialised version of capitalism, and relatively limited social safety nets. Although many of those voting for British exit from the EU, and for a Donald Trump presidency, have a deep distrust of governments, the likely result is more interventionist governments.

Mr Trump’s unpredictable character adds a layer of uncertainty. As President Barack Obama argued, to no avail, it is worrying when someone who will now have control of the nuclear codes cannot be trusted with their own Twitter account. This uncertainty will itself damage securities prices and shake confidence.

In the broader picture, the result should not have been a surprise. Back in 2008, as the financial crisis broke, many thought a political crisis would ensue within months. The surprise is that the denouement has been so long delayed.

Blaming central bankers, as many of the people behind the UK and US populist revolts tend to do, misses the point. The loose monetary policies of the last eight years helped deepen inequality by raising the wealth of those who already had assets, without breathing sufficient life into the US or UK economy.

But central bankers were following these policies to buy time for politicians. Necessary action — whether it was a big programme of infrastructure investment or a painful structural reform — has not been forthcoming. Central banks have looked increasingly uncomfortable with their new role.

For the next few days, we can expect to follow the “Brexit playbook”. A big sell-off of US assets is a given, as is a subsequent bounce. Emerging markets will be a particular victim due to their dependence on trade. They appeared to be at the beginning of a renaissance; that is now in question. Markets tend to overshoot, and this will produce some buying opportunities and bargains.

Only once Mr Trump is in office will a clear direction be set. The first item on the agenda is the Federal Reserve. The market sell-off should force the Fed not to go through with raising rates next month. A move to curb the Fed’s independence, or an exit by chairwoman Janet Yellen, could create alarm.

After that, it is over to President Trump. The range of outcomes is huge. An aggressive fiscal expansion — such as slashing corporate tax — would presumably pass the Republican House. That could raise inflation, but might well cheer asset markets.

Meanwhile, the tariff war he often promised in the campaign would be unalloyedly negative for capital markets — and this is an area where the president has relatively great freedom to act, without reference to Congress.

So in historical terms, the range of possibilities goes from the early Reagan years (when a great bull market took root), to the disastrous Smoot-Hawley tariffs that followed the 1929 crash. Extreme volatility is certain.

What is undeniable is a deep pessimism and anger within the electorate. A famous work of stock market history is called Triumph of the Optimists; it argues that the second half of the 20th century, with the rebirth of Germany and Japan, the peaceful end of the cold war, and widening free trade, was a triumph for those who looked to the future optimistically at mid-century.

Markets peaked at the end of 1999. The advances from 1950 to 2000 then taken for granted are now in doubt. As certainties disappear, this election marks the triumph of the market pessimists.
 
Why am I not surprised by this outcome

The same type of voters voted for Trump as for Brexit.
A large portion of which are white, older generation, poorly educated and/or xenophobic who feel disenfranchised, there are also idealists and those that reject the status quo and think for some reason the grass is greener on the other side.

2017 will show if these advocates of "change" will start to fulfil what they promised, The Brexiters have not started very well, see how far Trump gets.
Of course when things start to go wrong it will be someone else's fault.

When things don't go the way those who voted for Trump or Brexit expect, what happens then?

The question you should be more afraid of is, what happens if things go the way they expected?
 
Which would be all fine and dandy if Trump had proposed a 'proper debate' on immigration but everything he said on the topic is demonstrably racist.

FWIW I think the 'can't talk about immigration without being seen as racist' line of thinking is terribly overstated.
Very much this.
I'm actually so so SO fecking sick and tired of hearing this same "argument" over and over again. People who just say plain open racist stuff but when you say that they get all worked up and talk about others telling them what to think. I mean seriously WTF? Same goes for sexism and all the other stuff.
 
Cost of housing and zero hour contracts, just 2 things that have the power to financially cripple people. Up until Mike Ashley was revealed to be running a sweat shop nothing tangible was being done about either. Labour, Tory and Lib Dems all helped to clear the path for these things and sat back and watched as they proliferated. Even now I can name you 3 places of work that match pretty accurately to the descriptions of Ashley's setup (don't worry redcafe lawyers I won't). There was a UN report just days ago highlighting disability rights violations by the UK government in relation to benefits.

Whether these are decisive factors or not in pushing people away from the mainstream I can't be sure, or if there is enough of these desperate people to make an electorial difference, but let's not pretend that some people are not being brutalised under the rule of our current status quo governments. How can you expect these poor bastards to just go back and vote for Cameron, Blair, Clinton, when these types helped put them there in the first place.

Anyway that's me and politics done again till the next big craze, I don't have the mentality for this (or the genuine fear that it would lead to me lying in a bathtub with opened veins). I'm off to watch cartoons.