Transgender rights discussion

Pogue Mahone said:
You’ll have to expand on that one…
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simply that there are trans people who do not identify with their sex but do not necessarily feel pain or anguish from this.

intrinsically linking being trans with pain or distress is problematic in its own right. That isn’t what defines trans people, whether they suffer dysphoria or not.
 
Camilo said:
That post responded to mine, that's the point. Hopefully it's a bit tongue in cheek. But plenty of very similar posts are dead serious.

And yes, declaring certain opinion as wrong and denying the discussion of certain topics (whether that's the throwing of statues into harbours, or trans discussion, or whatever it may be) is clearly not ok. The subject doesn't matter. Who's "right" doesn't matter. It's an intolerance of discussion, which is a terrible thing.
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Okay. So for example, it would less bad that someone says they think child prostitution should be legal, than someone who says that opinion is wrong?
 
nimic said:
Okay. So for example, it would less bad that someone says they think child prostitution should be legal, than someone who says that opinion is wrong?
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wait until Camilo finds about the denial of holocaust laws in Germany
 
Ananke said:
I think this is key. We all view this in our own way, but if Bob down the road decided he hates being called Bob and wants to be called Robert…why would I purposely continue to call him Bob when he’s told me he doesn’t like that?

Personally I’m of the opinion Male is Male and Female is Female, and people can identify as either but I’m not going to shift the facts in my head of their actual sex. But I will make a conscious effort if a person wants to be known as something different. Politeness isn’t hard.
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And it’s not like this doesn’t happen outside of transsexuality. We call artists and athletes by made up names all the time. We also accept that people change their names when they marry. But for trans people this becomes an issue. And this can only be attributed to transphobia. It’s not because it’s difficult or anything. If it were, the same people would call Eminem Marshall Mathers, Lucio Lucimar da Silva Ferreira and so on. We don’t. We accept peoples choices.
 
May those posters who don't want to use preferred pronouns should change there usernames to their birth certificate names when on the Caf? Or just have to take whatever user name the Caf gives them.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
Obviously not and never was. They're fighting against the trans-conspiracy to end humanity.
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They're just trying to help archeologists in a thousand years. Can you imagine skeletons that are not male or female? It would be chaos.
 
maniak said:
They're just trying to help archeologists in a thousand years. Can you imagine skeletons that are not male or female? It would be chaos.
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Don't worry. They'll look at every skeleton, see absolutely no penis bones, and determine that everyone was a woman.
 
Maybe its from a certain level of ignorance, but I get a little annoyed when people ask me what my preferred pronouns are. I don't mind using your preferred pronouns even if I think it's silly, which I usually don't. I understand this is how they feel about themselves. I feel going out of your way to not use someones preferred pronouns is just being rude and insensitive, regardless of my stance on rights.

I think children is a tricky subject though. How do you find that balance between teaching children what's good for them and them setting their boundaries/preferences. I find that a difficult concept and not just for transgenderism.
 
calodo2003 said:
Transgenders are mentally ill & troubled?

If so, oh dear.
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Halftrack said:
I can't even be bothered to type out a proper reply to this absolute crock of shit.
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Wibble said:
And we wonder why trans people are demonised with attitudes like this?

Trans people do have more mental health issues but for many transitioning and being accepted as the sex their brain tells them they are is the partial or total solution to the root cause of their mental health struggles. Both of the people I know who have transitioned are much happier and healthier now.

Although attitude like this mean they are likely to suffer mental health challenges even after transition.
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I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo

Jotun said:
Whoa. Do you have any data to back up these claims?
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The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.
 
Sviken said:
I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.
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And yet another crock of shit.
 
Sviken said:
I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.
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You keep alluding to the possibility that being transgender is a choice. Do you believe it is a choice?
 
Sviken said:
I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.
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You should send your ideas to some of the highly qualified doctors and specialists who deal with these transgender kids. I'm sure that absolutely none of them have thought about this sort of stuff and have just been chucking needles filled with penis or boob juice at their patients for years.
 
Sviken said:
I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.
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The error in your thinking here is that they have a condition that needs to be fixed in such manner that they accept the body they are in.

It's not a horrible thought but it does discount a lived experience that you have no concept of.

Have you considered that the fix is actually supporting them as they explore such a transition? As you say many people is this situation end up killing themselves. Usually that's because they don't feel they have support or are forced to live as a gender they don't feel they belong to.

Maybe the solution is happy people who feel they belong in the skin they're in? The approach you seem to favour is one that has been tried with homosexuality and transgenderism for ages with zero success and lots of suicides.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
Sorry, but what is so terrible about this? I don't get it.
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specifically seeking out doctors with misgivings, and specifically saying they don't want to talk to specialists. no reason to specify either unless you're going in with a particular perspective.
 
Knowing you're going to be pilloried for writing a bunch of ignorant and ill concieved things isn't mitigating. Knowing it's going to scald you when you pour a boiling kettle over your head doesn't win you any points if you then go and do it anyway.
 
Time to boycott Mr. Beast according to Matt Walsh
 
Sviken said:
I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.
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We "jumped" because being trans is not a mental illness. Medically I mean. It is not an illness that will go away with pills, therapy or pulling yourself together.

It can result in some form of depression or other condition, particularly if the person doesn't get assistance to consider how to progress with transition (or not). This is why young trans people have very high rates of suicidal ideation as they suffer very high rates of being bullied or ridiculed often before they are even aware of why they feel different. Older trans people have much lower suicide ideation and attempt rates (but still elevated as their life challenges don't totally disappear). Furthermore treating it as a mental illness/moral failing results in dangerous stuff like conversion therapy. Suicide attempts are 4x higher again in those who have undergone these misguided (to be generous) and dangerous programs. Thankfully they are gradually being outlawed in many places.

And you don't need to help find the crux of the issue because we already know, and largely how to help people. Falsely calling trans people mentally ill, with the implication that a few pills or a bit of therapy will make it go away, merely contributes to the challenges that trans people have.
 
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HookedOnAPhelan said:
Sorry, but what is so terrible about this? I don't get it.
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Because they are avoiding seeking the opinions of specialists in the area or doctors who are fine with current practices. So all that will be left is a handful of GPs with prejudice who can be used to make it seem like many doctors are backing g the presumably anti-trans narrative that has already been decided upon.

You get it in the area of climate change or evolution and you usually find that the objecting doctors don't have qualifications in appropriate areas e.g. engineers not understanding natural selection due to religious beliefs.
 
Wibble said:
We "jumped" because being trans is not a mental illness. Medically I mean. It is not an illness that will go away with pills, therapy or pulling yourself together.

It can result in some form of depression or other condition, particularly if the person doesn't get assistance to consider how to progress with transition (or not). This is why young trans people have very high rates of suicidal ideation as they suffer very high rates of being bullied or ridiculed often before they are even aware of why they feel different. Older trans people have much lower suicide ideation and attempt rates (but still elevated as their life challenges don't totally disappear). Furthermore treating it as a mental illness/moral failing results in dangerous stuff like conversion therapy Suicide attempts are 4x higher again in those who have undergone these misguided (to be generous) and dangerous programs. Thankfully they are gradually being outlawed in many places.

And you don't need to help find the crux of the issue because we already know, and largely how to help people. Falsely calling trans people mentally ill, with the implication that a few pills or a bit of therapy will make it go away, merely contributes to the challenges that trans people have.
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To be fair didn't he say gender dysphoria, rather than being trans, is a mental illness?

Gender dysphoria is one form of body dysphoria isn't it?

Don't we treat, rightly or wrongly, the other forms of body dysphoria as mental illness?
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
To be fair didn't he say gender dysphoria, rather than being trans, is a mental illness?

Gender dysphoria is one form of body dysphoria isn't it?

Don't we treat, rightly or wrongly, the other forms of body dysphoria as mental illness?
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They said ‘these people.’

Infer from that what you will.
 
Sviken said:
I knew I was going to get these sort of replies. You just jumped because I said mentally ill like you think mental illness is some deranged psychopathy or something. Depression is a form of mental illness, too. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is 'insane', it just means that the behavioral patterns, thoughts and moods are broken. This can manifest in entirely different ways.

Someone thinking he is born in the wrong body is definitely not a sign of mental healthiness, imo


The fact that the majority of them have considered killing or have killed, or at the very least tried to kill themselves. You can look that up pretty fast. This is not a sign of a mentally fit individual. Again that doesn't mean that they should be punished or anything of the like, but they should be treated and helped, not encouraged. That is why I gave the ridiculous example of the superhero stuff. At the end of the day, if someone has a bad habit, you don't encourage him, you try to cut it out. If someone does fentanyl or meth, you don't say 'hey man, more power to you, that's healthy', instead you try to help him, if you can. Find out what's the crux of issue since there is always something deep down that has affected them to do that.
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you’re prioritising someone’s body over their mind. There is nothing wrong with a trans person’s mind, there is something misaligned with their body. That’s a frankly massive difference.

the reason they commit suicide is because of people like you. If people like you started treating trans people like the normal people they are rather than people who are somehow ‘broken’, that would probably help reduce that suicide rate. But people like you prefer your own inane ramblings rather than, you know, actual medical professionals and specialists. That’s the world we live in.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
To be fair didn't he say gender dysphoria, rather than being trans, is a mental illness?

Gender dysphoria is one form of body dysphoria isn't it?

Don't we treat, rightly or wrongly, the other forms of body dysphoria as mental illness?
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Firstly I think that the OP uses gender dysphoria and transgender interchangeably (these people).

That aside I assume you are referring to Body Dysphoria Disorder (of which there are a number of types) which is a mental illness that obsessively concentrates on some "flawed" aspect of your body or appearance. It is a mental health disorder because the flaw is either false or greatly exaggerated and results in obsessive and often hugely harmful behaviour.

Gender dysphoria may sound the same but is not considered as a disorder anymore. This is because the mismatch between birth/biological sex is not something you can (or rather should) treat as a reversible illness (as say the body dysphoria associated with anorexia potentially is) but rather something that people often need assistance with to avoid developing mental illness such as depression.
 
The Corinthian said:
:wenger:
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While not a direct cause and effect even (hopefully) inadvertent anti-trans sentiment can contribute significantly to the problems trans people experience, which in turn can and does contribute to increased rates of suicide/suicidal ideation.
 
Wibble said:
While not a direct cause and effect even (hopefully) inadvertent anti-trans sentiment can contribute significantly to the problems trans people experience, which in turn can and does contribute to increased rates of suicide/suicidal ideation.
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There’s a clear link between mental health state and people identifying as trans but to callously say that suicides are because of people like that poster is just an idiotic take. There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.
 
The Corinthian said:
There’s a clear link between mental health state and people identifying as trans but to callously say that suicides are because of people like that poster is just an idiotic take. There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.
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Comments like "trans people kill themselves because of the scientifically accepted treatment", however? Because that's what the moron said.
 
The Corinthian said:
There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.
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I'd hope that discussion could be a civil and reasoned as possible, and such comments are both too absolute, even if there is some element of truth, and too confrontational, as everyone then tends to retreat to their own hill to defend it (and possibly die on it).
 
The Corinthian said:
There’s a clear link between mental health state and people identifying as trans but to callously say that suicides are because of people like that poster is just an idiotic take. There’s a good good natured debate to be had on what is a controversial topic on the role of mental health in trans identifying people and comments like that have no place in them.
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it is far from idiotic to suggest transphobia contributes to trans people committing suicide. That’s fairly basic to be honest.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a trans person’s mental state. There’s no ‘debate’ to be had about that. There is everything wrong with trans people being subjected to discrimination, bullying, and harrassment (which in turn affects their mental state like it would any one of us), from people with viewpoints such as his, which demonstrably leads to a higher % of trans people committing suicide over time.
 
stepic said:
it is far from idiotic to suggest transphobia contributes to trans people committing suicide. That’s fairly basic to be honest.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a trans person’s mental state. There’s no ‘debate’ to be had about that. There is everything wrong with trans people being subjected to discrimination, bullying, and harrassment (which in turn affects their mental state like it would any one of us), from people with viewpoints such as his, which demonstrably leads to a higher % of trans people committing suicide over time.
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I take your general point, but I think your first sentence make it sound like being trans is the cause, where as it is more likely the causes of mental distress are societal, i.e. being socially excluded, suffering transphobia, etc. For similar reasons, neurodiverse people also suffer high rates of mental ill health, suicide ideation, and suicide, which seems to suggest being diverse in this world is itself a factor.
 
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