Must get frustrating being mislabelled all the time
Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
Why label at all? Why start the conversation with labelling? Just state your name. Be it Janice or Carl, who gives a shit?
Equality and fairness isn't about treating everyone exactly the same but rather, particulatly when it comes to marginalised groups, ensuring that everyone is treated in a way that prevents people being discriminated against and trying to make sure that everyone has equal opportunity in life, be that employment, access to buildings (or toilets/change rooms) or social interaction. In effect being afforded the opportunity to be happy and make the most of your life.
In the case of trans people a huge part of their welbeing is about not just being vaguely tolerated as being the sex their brain tells them they are, but actually being accepted as being that sex and treated as such. Which is where the bathroom debate comes from.
I doubt that there are currently many real issues with trans women using these facilities, as trans women have been using them for many years, largely unnoticed. But the debate is obviously not that simple as trans women (mostly I'd guess) would like to use female facilities as a female and some cis women have concerns about that happening for a variety of reasons, the reasonableness of which can be debated.
Like the trans women in sport issue it will sometimes result that you have to discriminate against one group or another as there is perhaps no perfect answer that makes everyone happy and the least shit answer that benefits as many people as possible is the only solution. So imo the contentious issues are almost always rights related, in the later case trans women's rights to be treated as women vs cis women's rights to fair sporting competition.
how did they manage to force you to say it in the end?
They tickled me
Yeah, it's a difficult for almost everyone so it's kind of hard to determine categorically if someone has gender dysphoria or is something else. Some people might try to debate that it is something pushed on more recently and that's why there are more cases but with time it should settle up.
Like the kid who got banned in a pokemon tournament?
as made up stories go it doesn't sound too traumatic
I'll live
You by the looks of it?
And we wonder why trans people are demonised with attitudes like this?
Trans people do have more mental health issues but for many transitioning and being accepted as the sex their brain tells them they are is the partial or total solution to the root cause of their mental health struggles. Both of the people I know who have transitioned are much happier and healthier now.
Although attitude like this mean they are likely to suffer mental health challenges even after transition.
Why would you not use the pronoun that someone prefers? Out of simple human kindness wouldn't you comply? It costs you nothing.
And cis is describing you as biologically male (which is what you want) and exclusively used in discussions where it is merely for clarity to differentiate between cis males and trans males. Just as you might talk about black men and white men in a discussion about race issues.
I was only half joking, I don’t see myself as CIS or anything either. However I do see why if you don’t think you are a man it would get annoying if people kept calling you one.
If you don’t accept their choice, of course that’s up to you. But if that’s all I’ve got to do to be accommodating and polite to someone who already belongs to a group with suicide rates approaching 50%, I’ll do it. Why add more hate into the world?
I use the pronounce based on people names. If you are an Eric, i say him. If you are named Claire I say she. Mostly I just use people's names .. And I don't use the cis term either. I use male or female. If someone is trans I would use their name, like I do with everyone I know. If I didn't know the trans person I would most likely use the pronounce which suited his name? I don't see the use for cis/binary stuff. It's either male or female
All these things are true: (also, I study microbes, so my examples are going to be from there)
Mutations are indeed one of the main ways we get evolution.
They are indeed defined as errors, damage, abnormalities, aberration, etc.
Many mutations are neutral, creating no effect. Some are deleterious, harming the mutant cell/organism. Very few are beneficial. Often this is context-dependent: a mutation that helps a cell grow quicker in a nutrient-rich environment might reduce its survival in stress conditions.
The kinds of mutations you are talking about (XXY, X0, etc)- where an entire chromosome that is extra or missing - are very drastic, and usually harmful in humans (Down's is a classic example). But that is not universally the case: my project right now is understanding how duplication of half a chromosome helps some pathogenic fungi evade antifungal drugs. In the species I worked with previously, we knew for certain that a chromsome deletion or duplication meant almost nothing: its cells had only one chromosome, but carried 15-25 copies of it! A couple more or less made no difference. But in animals and bacteria and many fungi, chromosome copy number is usually tightly controlled. One of the possible effects of a change in copy number in humans is cancer.
I get why you don't like the use of those terms (error/abnormality). Genetics has one of the dirtiest legacies of any scientific field, and that's with a lot of stiff competition! But even though there is a lot of nuance to it, I don't think it is a wrong term. There are a lot of checkpoints in the cell specifically designed to prevent changes in chromosome number from happening, and its effects in humans are usually not good.
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And unless you know otherwise it is entirely appropriate to use the pronoun that seem obvious. trans people tend not to take offence to genue mistakes and again imo like to be asked what they prefer if there is any doubt. However, if you have been asked (or know) otherwise when it is just being a cnut. As for not using CIS are there any other adjectives that you avoid? I'd guess that most people who don't like CIS have no problem using trans? To avoid using trans and cis, which are only really used when discussing trans issues, does nothing other than potentially cause confusion or create conflict in those discussions when it is a political stance. To say that there is only male and female, ignoring the difference between biological sex (ignoring intersex cases) and gender, is anti-trans even if you don't think it is. You are denying their exitence in effect. Kindness is a good guide imo.
I love how non-biologists think that biology and gentics are so clean cut.
it's a great field because every day you find new and horrifying ideas and applications of it!
a few days back there was a twitter thread from a rancher, who understood from biology and her experience as a rancher, that life's purpose is procreation, hence, everyone not going at it, p in v, raw, is a drain on society and the species (this was, of course, about trans people)
the thread is deleted now, but it started like this.
Interesting take. The logical conclusion is that infertile humans should be kept as pets or eaten. I think we would all find it hard to argue against that logic
I dont see how it's anti-trans. There is only male and female. Intersex is a term used for disorders of sexual development. Because someone is unwell with the truth, doesn't make the truth go away.
yes. Not every trans person suffers from gender dysphoria.
Gender and sex are two separate things.
The problem seems to be that you only like a truth that fits your world view i.e. that gender doesn't exist. Nobody is suggesting that in mammals like us that most people aren't born male or female. The issue is that some people are mentally not the sex that they are biologically. This is just as biological as anything else, and to deny it based on not being able to (or more likely refusing to) differentiate between biological sex and gender is simply being purposely cruel. You don't refuse to use any other adjective or pronoun I'd guess? Alternatively, if someone likes to be called by a name that is different to their legal name do you refuse and call them their legal name? I'm guessing not.
Interestingly the actual biologists in this thread don't see things in the binary way that you are adopting. I wonder why that is?
So if we did away with he/him she/her there would be no labelling as we would all be they/them? I'm not sure that you have through this through.
Dirty is putting it mildly, but gene names are some of the wildest/amusing things in biology.
My only quibble with the above (which was a fantastic post!!!) is that many bacteria (hilariously N. gonorrhoeae being among the foremost) are extremely promiscuous in taking up and integrating exogenous DNA. These bacteria intentionally have lax control over their genome to promote the acquisition of beneficial genes. Also, no discussion of bacterial genomes is complete without mentioning that mycoplasma is proof of alien life. I’m way off topic, but any excuse to chat microbial genetics is a win for me.
What truth doesn't fit? Are there more than male/female? I fully understand that there are many with mental disorders like gender dysphoria out there, but that still doesn't change the amount of sexes we have. I can though agree we can make it better for them by accepting them for who they are, and maybe you are right, maybe I should be more open about calling them what they want.
As are many allegedly monogomous animals (in a sexual sense) which the moral majority often hialriously use as a proof that their version of family values is the "natural" way. And then shag the nanny.
Tell me more.
You are ignoring gender and want to only think that biological sex exists. Or thinking that biological sex and gener are exactly the same thing.
You also mistakenly call gender dysphoria a mental illness. People with gender dysphoria may develop mental illness associated with this mismatching of biological sex and gender, but it isn't defined as a mental illness in of itself.
There is a simple way to to find out if someone is affected by being referred to in a way that they like, and that is to talk to them. Not always an easy conversation to start but I've never heard of a trans person being upset about being asked what they prefer and/or what that means to them. In the 3 cases I have experenced trans people are not looking to be offended and generally like that someone cares enough to ask them. Only a sample size of 3 of course but .....
And conversation like that also seem to remove or reduce the antagonism that tends to attach to such discussions, as it de-emphasises difference and creates a more empathetic relationship between people with differening views and perspectives.
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Posts like this are what makes it difficult for such discussions to remain civil and reasoned.
You might note that others can discuss things in a far more reasonble and civil manner. And your last paragraph seems intended to be as dismissive and insulting as it is uninformed.
It was a joke… kind of… It’s just a weird little bastard. Unlike most bacteria it has no cell wall, which is not all that bonkers. What is bonkers is that it has enzymes that we know do specific things, but we can’t find them because there is no homologous sequence in any other organism. It also has a tiny ass genome, I think the smallest of any living organism. I used to know more random shit but the years, and beer, have erased them. The bacterial world is full of weird little guys. Check out Vampirococcus, it is exactly what you think it is; a bacteria that attaches to other bacteria and “sucks them dry”.
This is why I went off topic. I had written a ban worthy response to the post you referenced but redirected to something fun. Some people are just assholes.
So you want to give them your label rather than addressing them as who they actually are? If you don't give a feck about what they do to their bodies physically, then you really shouldn't care what they want to identify as.
Because narcissists (huh, I found a relevant “cis”) frame everything in how it impacts them.
You know that trans people still have names right...?
You’ll have to expand on that one…
Most of the time I try to understand they arent really well thought out and try and ignore or move on. Sometimes I forget and will react. I saw that one and realised there was little to no point trying to reply, mostly because so many others in this thread are making really good points and some are asking difficult questions with fair intentions.
There's nothing quite like people being outraged at something they clearly don't understand.
this entire topic summed up quite neatly
The world would be a better place if a few more people used this.
I think this is key. We all view this in our own way, but if Bob down the road decided he hates being called Bob and wants to be called Robert…why would I purposely continue to call him Bob when he’s told me he doesn’t like that?
Personally I’m of the opinion Male is Male and Female is Female, and people can identify as either but I’m not going to shift the facts in my head of their actual sex. But I will make a conscious effort if a person wants to be known as something different. Politeness isn’t hard.
Yeah, this is basically where I fall as well. I feel like a lot of the friction around this topic comes from the fact that most people can’t seem to get their head around the fact that sex doesn’t equal gender. ‘How can you change that just by saying so?’ Well, if one is a biological fact and the other is a state of mind, it becomes a lot easier to understand.
We need a thread about microbial biology because it's been a fascinating little detour in the last page or so.
I've encountered one trans person in real life (in work). I admit I've found the whole subject a bit of a minefield and a headf*ck but, in person, I was perfectly at ease and treated her with the same dignity and respect as everyone else. As many have said, politeness costs nothing.
It struck me, though, that the vast majority of opposition to trans issues or rights highlights their appearance. Pretty much every meme/story/outrage against the trans community focuses on the ones who identify as female but don't look very feminine. You know the ones - a story (usually in America), where a violent offender identifies as female and the mugshot is of a person who looks like a man with a beard and thinning hair who has grown it to shoulder length and put some eyeliner on. Do we think that there would be such an outcry about trans people, particularly male-to-female, if they all looked like Paris Lees?
I've encountered one trans person in real life (in work). I admit I've found the whole subject a bit of a minefield and a headf*ck but, in person, I was perfectly at ease and treated her with the same dignity and respect as everyone else. As many have said, politeness costs nothing.
It struck me, though, that the vast majority of opposition to trans issues or rights highlights their appearance. Pretty much every meme/story/outrage against the trans community focuses on the ones who identify as female but don't look very feminine. You know the ones - a story (usually in America), where a violent offender identifies as female and the mugshot is of a person who looks like a man with a beard and thinning hair who has grown it to shoulder length and put some eyeliner on. Do we think that there would be such an outcry about trans people, particularly male-to-female, if they all looked like Paris Lees?