I always knew that my rhombus shaped knob would find a target market eventually.
Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
- Start date
It’s amazing how someone can claim that their freedom of speech is limited just to go on and say exactly the things that they are not allowed to say.
It’s been pointed out countless times, but needs pointing out again. Someone like this doesn’t want freedom of speech. They want freedom from criticism, as they can’t cope with their opinions being challenged.
It’s been pointed out countless times, but needs pointing out again. Someone like this doesn’t want freedom of speech. They want freedom from criticism, as they can’t cope with their opinions being challenged.
These days, if you say "You are born either male or female and no plastic surgery will change that", you'll be arrested and thrown in jail.
Well, no, but there's a decent chance you'll have some rabid activist contact your employer to say what a transphobic, extremist bigot you are. That's been the case recently in my country at least, according to some recent media reports.
I am fully against the idea the left is more dangerous. Far right is a genuine danger to society than far left but let’s not act like left/liberal policies aren’t to blame for a lot of things in the world.
Not being able to discuss issues fairly is one of those things. I know it’s difficult since there are a lot of bad faith dimwits out there who can’t think beyond 3 words that are usually “trigger” “virtue signal” “snowflake”, but I still feel there is more room to discuss and criticize/reevaluate our own stances on things like transgender rights
In what situation would you feel the need to say that to a trans person?
I wouldn't, ever.
There's someone a few posts up (post #2365) who feels somewhat oppressed that they can't say it without being challenged though. I was just making fun of how daft that is.
Wow that is unreal - how could you call yourself a Christian and yet have no compassion whatsoever.
I wouldn’t be surprised to hear him say the same thing about gay people.
I don't know why people keep saying there are only two biological sexes.
I assume that they mean there are only people with XX or XY chromosomes or people who are born with either male sexual parts or female sexual parts.
However, there are people born with XXY, XYY and other chromosome combinations and also can be born with a mixture or absence of sexual organs.
If it's their role in reproduction, the are people who have the more common set of sexual organs, who are totally barren.
So what are the two biological sexes? Surely it's more of a spectrum, and that's not even talking about gender.
I assume that they mean there are only people with XX or XY chromosomes or people who are born with either male sexual parts or female sexual parts.
However, there are people born with XXY, XYY and other chromosome combinations and also can be born with a mixture or absence of sexual organs.
If it's their role in reproduction, the are people who have the more common set of sexual organs, who are totally barren.
So what are the two biological sexes? Surely it's more of a spectrum, and that's not even talking about gender.
Interesting theory that some of the people saying they were transgender in the 2021 census misunderstood the question due to not speaking English as a first language, given the massive concentrations of trans folk in areas like Newham and Brent, with large immigrant communities.
Watchdog to examine ‘implausible’ UK census trans figures
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-figures-data-census-2021-uk-investigation-h668jcqrs
Watchdog to examine ‘implausible’ UK census trans figures
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-figures-data-census-2021-uk-investigation-h668jcqrs
That’s so crazy.Bloody immigrants, coming over here, being trans!!!
See, that's the great thing about being a Christian, being part of the club absolves you from questionable concepts like compassion. It's a nice, warm and fuzzy cloak to wear
Understood, sorry I missed what you wer doing. Cheers
In mammalian physiology, there are only two sexes (I'd argue that there are only two genders as well, but that's a different discussion).
You're either male or female. Anything that doesn't fit that binary is due to a mutation, genetic anomaly, or some other in utero developmental issue. It's not, and shouldn't be considered as a 3rd sex, or that sex is on a spectrum.
The title was changed to this to be as uncontroversial as possible, so as not to discourage genuine discussion and because it is a general trans related thread now. Surely that is rights related if nothing else? Do you have a better idea?
It's called Klinefelter syndrome and a quick Google says that approx 1 in 500 boys are born XXY
Ok?
Klinefelter is a genetic issue, which is something I covered in my initial post.
That makes 16 million boys genetic anomalies. And that's not including all the other variations of extra X's, apparently it can go up to XXXXY. And that's also not including those with extra Y's.
If you add up all of those different variations, that's a sizable proportion of people who don't have the normal amount of chromosomes, so are neither male or female
Why do you select only mammals? Perhaps because 5% of animals are not male or female as they are hermaphrodites?
In any case trans is not a denial of biological sex but a recognition that some peoples' sex and gender are not aligned. The intersex cases that you mention are not the same as trans although that is a fair few people who aren't strictly male or female.
Does anyone in this thread support a child going through gender affirmation surgery? If so, do you also support the right for children to vote?
Again - these are all genetic abnormalities, or in utero complications / mutations. Fundamentally, most of these people that have such a condition will either be male or female anyway. There's a very small % that are intersex (Klinefelter's is not intersex).
I mentioned mammals because that's what we are. Mammalian physiology is binary.
Agree on your second and third sentence. The other poster mentioned intersex/abnormalities as a case for trans when it's entirely separate.
That was explained by Dr Dwayne above and is grand, I wasn't aware of the thread so wasn't aware of the title change.
Re your comment that it is rights related - what is? What is rights related about this thread? Specifically, what rights do I have that a trans person does not?
The conversation surely is more about - are rights enough? Is privilege required to achieve equality? I'd argue yes, it's a concept with legal backing re positive discrimination etc, and that's the part I find more interesting here in terms of how this develops.
I wasn't saying it was a case for or against trans, that is a gender discussion.
I was talking about biological sex, you yourself have admitted that there is intersex, which is neither biologically male or female, but refuse to count any of those people as their own biological sex.
If someone is born XXY, are they biologically male or female? They have two X chromosomes so female, but also a Y, so male. You can't just say there are only two biological sexes when you can have anything from XXXXY to XYYYY. How is that not a spectrum?
As for gender, pretty much only the western world only believes in 2 genders. Native Americans had 5 genders as the norm, India has at least 3.
I was talking about biological sex, you yourself have admitted that there is intersex, which is neither biologically male or female, but refuse to count any of those people as their own biological sex.
If someone is born XXY, are they biologically male or female? They have two X chromosomes so female, but also a Y, so male. You can't just say there are only two biological sexes when you can have anything from XXXXY to XYYYY. How is that not a spectrum?
As for gender, pretty much only the western world only believes in 2 genders. Native Americans had 5 genders as the norm, India has at least 3.
Are children going through gender affirmation surgery?
Any thoughts on expanding the thread to include all LGBTQ+ rights discussions?
I don't think so, the trans discussion is very different
No and no. Surely children aren’t actually going under the knife?
No doubt, just don't think I have seen a suitable thread to discuss the other letters. Perhaps I will start one soon after the next alight or marginalization of any of the groups. Shouldn't be that long of a wait, especially in this country.
I'd say that what rights trans people are or aren't given or entitled to touches just about every part of this discussion.
Because what you're describing is an abnormality. Mammalian physiology has 2 sexes. Anything that sits outside of that is if something has (developmentally) gone wrong. It doesn't mean sex is on a spectrum.
Even if you take Klinefelter's syndrome as an example - they're considered biologically male, so it wouldn't even sit outside of the male female binary despite them having an additional X chromosome.
Interesting my google search showed 1 in 1000 but also said they are still 100% male, according to the manchester centre for genomic medicine. They were classed as boys or men with an extra X
I would tend to agree with this, though I hope it is mostly and will remain an online thing. It certainly makes think twice about posting on sensitive hot topics like this one, and i wonder how many others are put off from doing so. Not healthy for debate, and probabaly whatever is the prevailing view online isn't a reflection of general opinion.
How is that something gone wrong? What does wrong even mean in a biological sense?
But, there is a spectrum of XY combinations, including men with XX combinations.
Basically, what are the parameters of a biological male or female and what do you call those who are outside those parameters? It's not trans, that's gender.
Biologically you're either XY or XX. If you have extra chromosomes, it's usually down to a mutation, or a genetic abnormality etc. which is where something in utero has happened that ordinarily shouldn't happen (i.e. wrong).
But isn’t this how literally every organism evolved, including mammals? So how can these mutations be wrong, especially in a biological sense? Couldn’t I apply the very same logic in order to say that mammals shouldn’t exist because they evolved from sexless one cell organisms?
When it comes to chromosomal abnormalities they’re “wrong” in a very specific sense in that there’s usually been an error during cell division. And those errors won’t ever evolve out of existence because no biological system is completely flawless.