Transgender rights discussion

[HTG]

Hey young man or lady. You may not enter the WC, until you have solved my riddles three.
The first riddle be: the person on this door happens to wear a skirt, now tell me young man or lady, can your genitalia squirt?
Riddle number two be this: the person on this door is wearing pants, are those worn by ladies or gents?
Oh, I see you have answered my first two riddles. But don’t be too confident. Cause riddle three is much harder, as you see. So answer me this: if going for piss, do you happen to sit, or do you stand and sometimes miss?
Now that you solved the rest, here comes the final test. Show yourself in the nude, cause only then we can verify wether your sex is real, or a wrong packaged deal. But be warned before, if your genitalia are wrong, you might never again enter this store.

 

[stw2022]

If a white, heterosexual, able-bodied man decided he wished to be referred to as a black, lesbian, disabled woman, explain why only some of that is offensive

 

[Mr Pigeon]

If a white, heterosexual, able-bodied man decided he wished to be referred to as a black, lesbian, disabled woman, explain why only some of that is offensive

You've still not provided a single source for your claim that people are pretending to identify as any of this.

Until you do there's zero point in answering any of your made up questions and giving them any form of validation. It's like responding to someone who's asked "when did you stop beating your wife?"

 

[Halftrack]

@Halftrack has outsourced their reply to me this time

It's funny how some expect to be able to trot out literal right-wing caricatures, propaganda and scaremongering and still sound believable when they claim they support "the real trans folks."

"See that person who has no interest in undergoing the long, life-altering procedure to change their gender as you did to live your life as the gender you've always felt you were, but instead has just 'self-identifed' as the opposite gender? They're the same as you"

Self ID is supposed to help trans people by not requiring years of treatment, surgeries and doctors signing off in order to change their legal gender. If you charge is that floods of people who claim to identify as basketballs and collanders abuse this system to gain access to women's spaces, provide some fecking proof of that happening.

I don't expect you to respond, because you avoid responding to posts that ask you to substantiate your claims.

 

[nimic]

There's nothing I've said that belittles actual trans people. I'm happy to belittle those who have jumped on the trans movement and their allies that refuse to see the distinction.

Changing genders is incredibly hard and brave. How dare the Self-ID muppets trivialise that as they have. These are largely heterosexual, cis-gendered citizens of social media. Trying to force trans people to accept them as representative of their journey and struggle can feck off.

The debate around safe spaces and the rest of it is entirely separate. But the starting point cannot be 'I'm going pretend those that have a medical procedure are the same as those who want up and decide they want different pronouns on their Facebook page' because that is the most insulting to trans people.

Perhaps you should let the trans community decide for themselves what is the most insulting to them? They seem largely content to embrace the "Self-ID muppets", as you put it. Certainly it doesn't seem like quite as pressing a concern as the increasingly loud movement that doesn't want them to exist in the first place.

At some point when do we talk about the psyche of heterosexual men being completely relaxed about the presence of cock being waved about in women's safe spaces?

What does this even mean?

 

[Welsh Wonder]

Never takes long for them to abandon all pretence of 'reason' and going full lunatic bigot.

 

[calodo2003]

 

[jeff_goldblum]

The idea that there's beef between trans people who have undergone gender affirmation surgery and those who haven't (or who have decided to undergo fewer of the various surgeries/treatments that come under that umbrella) would be laughable to 99.99% of trans people. It is absolutely inconceivable that you could spend any considerable amount of time around trans people and come away from it thinking that the community isn't massively in favour of self-ID.

 

[VorZakone]

This is the right wing attitude towards trans people:



It's not about linguistics.

And what about the attitude of non-right wingers? I know from anectodal experience people who are not concerned with right-wing ideology but they post clips of Matt Walsh' "what is a woman" movie, making fun of people who avoid that question.

In other words, I don't see pushback only from right-wingers.

 

[Halftrack]

And what about the attitude of non-right wingers? I know from anectodal experience people who are not concerned with right-wing ideology but they post clips of Matt Walsh' "what is a woman" movie, making fun of people who avoid that question.

In other words, I don't see pushback only from right-wingers.

Those people are called right-wingers. Or dim.

 

[NotThatSoph]

And what about the attitude of non-right wingers? I know from anectodal experience people who are not concerned with right-wing ideology but they post clips of Matt Walsh' "what is a woman" movie, making fun of people who avoid that question.

In other words, I don't see pushback only from right-wingers.

I think that when we count up the right wingers it's already a lot of people, which was the threshold.

 

[Wibble]

There's nothing I've said that belittles actual trans people. I'm happy to belittle those who have jumped on the trans movement and their allies that refuse to see the distinction.

Changing genders is incredibly hard and brave. How dare the Self-ID muppets trivialise that as they have. These are largely heterosexual, cis-gendered citizens of social media. Trying to force trans people to accept them as representative of their journey and struggle can feck off.

The debate around safe spaces and the rest of it is entirely separate. But the starting point cannot be 'I'm going pretend those that have a medical procedure are the same as those who want up and decide they want different pronouns on their Facebook page' because that is the most insulting to trans people.

I'd say that all trans people self-identify and only some go on with varying degrees of medical intervention.

That you seem to have invented a whole cohort who are pretending to be trans to access women's toilets is very odd. That you only think that people are trans if they have surgery or medical intervention odder still.

I'd say that it might be insulting to have my identity questioned by some bloke on the internet based on his own straw man argument.

 

[stw2022]

Self-identity is fine until it comes with demands based on that self-identity. If someone wants to live - present if you will - as a different gender, then fine. I think there is an issue with demands based on that. And I think the dismissal of women's concerns about what it means about their safe spaces is barely hidden misogyny. It's telling that in an overwhelmingly male space that a football forum inevitably is, the concerns that some women have over this is close to unanimously dismissed.

It really does show male indifference to the fears women have. Accept male born people in your safe spaces if that male born person declares their entitlement to be there. Still hopeful at some point there'll be a moment where the penny drops and the underlying misogyny of that reality is recognised.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Self-identity is fine until it comes with demands based on that self-identity. If someone wants to live - present if you will - as a different gender, then fine. I think there is an issue with demands based on that. And I think the dismissal of women's concerns about what it means about their safe spaces is barely hidden misogyny. It's telling that in an overwhelmingly male space that a football forum inevitably is, the concerns that some women have over this is close to unanimously dismissed.

It really does show male indifference to the fears women have. Accept male born people in your safe spaces if that male born person declares their entitlement to be there. Still hopeful at some point there'll be a moment where the penny drops and the underlying misogyny of that reality is recognised.

This is the third time you try this tactic, and you'll probably ignore once again that women are more supportive of trans people than men are in basically every single way, and that includes who should be in women's spaces.

You're trying the same thing as that guy who kept going on about women and lesbians, until it was revealed that he was a very sexist Ben Shapiro fan. You're using it as a shield for your own opinion. Just like you did when you claimed that it would be better for trans people to not be a part of the "LGB" community: you want to drop the T, so you baselessly make up that the Ts should drop themselves. Just stand by your own opinions for once.

 

[Wibble]

Self-identity is fine until it comes with demands based on that self-identity. If someone wants to live - present if you will - as a different gender, then fine. I think there is an issue with demands based on that. And I think the dismissal of women's concerns about what it means about their safe spaces is barely hidden misogyny. It's telling that in an overwhelmingly male space that a football forum inevitably is, the concerns that some women have over this is close to unanimously dismissed.

It really does show male indifference to the fears women have. Accept male born people in your safe spaces if that male born person declares their entitlement to be there. Still hopeful at some point there'll be a moment where the penny drops and the underlying misogyny of that reality is recognised.

I'm sure trans people will be grateful that you allow them to self identify as long as it can be dismissed if it has any practical meaning.

And I don't know a single woman who cares at all about trans women using a female designated bathroom. They do however hate it that many decisions in life are influenced by the fear of mens' behaviour e.g. walking alone after dark.

 

[jojojo]

Crudely, until recently, most Brits idea of a transgender woman was Hayley in Coronation Street - and only a monster wouldn't accept her as a woman. The reality has been that someone who "passes" as a woman is largely accepted, someone who doesn't is in danger of (at best) ridicule and at worst outright abuse and violence.

The Tories and their press are playing culture war games and currently those are working on significant numbers of the population.

Most trans-women choose not to have surgery - I think this has surprised many people and they're still trying to understand what gender transition means. Self-ID has become ammunition in the story, mostly because it gets connected to the idea of automatic legally enforceable rights of access to women only spaces - like refuges and prisons. In reality, because of safeguarding requirements, the chances are they can already act on a case by case basis, even if they need further support (financial or otherwise) to do it.

Just as background, a survey on where the UK population were last year (with a lot of don't knows) before the Tories really got into their culture wars campaign:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society...-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

 

[stw2022]

People are, rightly, supportive of trans rights. Both men and persons who menstrate. The issues pushed to the forefront have very little to do with trans rights

 

[jojojo]

People are, rightly, supportive of trans rights. Both men and persons who menstrate. The issues pushed to the forefront have very little to do with trans rights

I agree with two out of three sentences there.

But I have zero idea what you're getting at (or what argument you're trying to provoke) with that phrase, "Both men and persons who menstrate." Are you making some kind of weird joke about not saying the word women or are you actually choosing to ignore people who don't fit neatly into those categories?

 

[nimic]

It's telling that in an overwhelmingly male space that a football forum inevitably is, the concerns that some women have over this is close to unanimously dismissed.

Said the man in the football forum.

 

[golden_blunder]

How long would a man with an erection need to have self-identifed as a woman to gain access to a female bathroom? Would it have to pre-date the start of the stiffy? Minimum 15 mins buffer? Maybe it's an overnight thing? 48 hours maybe?

The real crime will be the TERF that reports to the store security officer that a man with a boner had just walked in. She can suck my vagina that I'm self-identifying as having until the end of this sentence.

WTF

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Ignore him. Every time you engage with his argument that "men with boners pretend to be trans so they can rape women in toilets" you give it some form of validity. The biggest problem with this entire argument from the get go is that it was flung out by a bunch of trans hating cuntos who were looking for an excuse to persecute an already persecuted group.

"Men with boners pretending to be trans" aren't the big threat to women. It's simply just straight cis-men with boners that are the problem, and the numbers back that up. To claim that men need to pretend to be trans in order to sexually assault a woman ignores the reality that sick, subhuman feckers have been doing it for decades without having to transition.

 

[stw2022]

Allowing men to enter ladies changing rooms simply because they declare a right to be there is fine then.

This isn't about trans people. It's about cis heterosexual men taking advantage of the fact those who might raise concern about seeing a man in a ladies changing room might decide not to for fear of being labelled "transphoic'

Entitled to safe spaces full of vulnerable women should not be automatically granted purely because someone declares their right to be there.

The mental gymnastics involved in declaring that statement transphobic is a sign of the state of the whole debate

 

[Berbasbullet]

Allowing men to enter ladies changing rooms simply because they declare a right to be there is fine then

Oh my god.

 

[nimic]

Ignore him. Every time you engage with his argument that "men with boners pretend to be trans so they can rape women in toilets" you give it some form of validity. The biggest problem with this entire argument from the get go is that it was flung out by a bunch of trans hating cuntos who were looking for an excuse to persecute an already persecuted group.

"Men with boners pretending to be trans" aren't the big threat to women. It's simply just straight cis-men with boners that are the problem, and the numbers back that up. To claim that men need to pretend to be trans in order to sexually assault a woman ignores the reality that sick, subhuman feckers have been doing it for decades without having to transition.

Don't ignore him. Eventually he is going to cross the line too far, or too many times, and he's going to get himself banned. These ones always do.

 

[Frosty]

Also if the problem is about cis men who are predatory, maybe we need to focus on them?

 

[DJ Jeff]

I don't think its remotely possible for a man to become a woman or vice versa, its a fearsome reduction of what those two categories mean in human society to think surgery and hormones can do that, but if you want to be called whatever that's fine with me, I'll call you that.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Are we going to get the point where we have Male's, Female's and Tran's divisions?

I'm cool with that, but is the trans division going to be split up?

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Allowing men to enter ladies changing rooms simply because they declare a right to be there is fine then.

This isn't about trans people. It's about cis heterosexual men taking advantage of the fact those who might raise concern about seeing a man in a ladies changing room might decide not to for fear of being labelled "transphoic'

Entitled to safe spaces full of vulnerable women should not be automatically granted purely because someone declares their right to be there.

The mental gymnastics involved in declaring that statement transphobic is a sign of the state of the whole debate

I'm comfortable using a bathroom, changing room etc with someone that has a penis regardless of what they identify as. I just close my door. I'm not comfortable being around perverts and based on your argument, you're saying all males who are capable of an erection is a pervert and want to exploit women and their safe space but that's just not true.

 

[sebsheep]

Also if the problem is about cis men who are predatory, maybe we need to focus on them?

Why would we want to focus on the actual problem?

 

[DJ Jeff]

I'm comfortable using a bathroom, changing room etc with someone that has a penis regardless of what they identify as. I just close my door. I'm not comfortable being around perverts and based on your argument, you're saying all males who are capable of an erection is a pervert and want to exploit women and their safe space but that's just not true.

His point is badly expressed but I do agree with "TERFs" that cis women are a unique category who should have their own spaces.

 

[Maagge]

His point is badly expressed but I do agree with "TERFs" that cis women are a unique category who should have their own spaces.

But if you're going to sexual assault someone in a women's bathroom why not just walk in and do it? It's a completely nonsensical argument this whole "heterosexual men identifying as women for half an hour to sexually assault someone".

Plenty of places have unisex bathrooms without any issues.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But if you're going to sexual assault someone in a women's bathroom why not just walk in and do it? It's a completely nonsensical argument this whole "heterosexual men identifying as women for half an hour to sexually assault someone".

Plenty of places have unisex bathrooms without any issues.

Yeah, the risk of sexual assault by trans women in toilets is wildly overstated and a classic trope of this culture war.

Having said that, there is going to a transition period where a lot more thought will need to go into gendered spaces. Changing rooms in gyms/pools will probably need to all have individual cubicles as it’s not unreasonable for some women (and or parents of young girls) to prefer to not be exposed to strangers’ male genitalia when changing for a swim or a workout. The current, everyone get changed in a big room together, approach will need to be phased out.

Obviously not an issue in toilets, which already use cubicles.

 

[DJ Jeff]

But if you're going to sexual assault someone in a women's bathroom why not just walk in and do it? It's a completely nonsensical argument this whole "heterosexual men identifying as women for half an hour to sexually assault someone".

Plenty of places have unisex bathrooms without any issues.

Oh I'm not concerned about sexual assault by trans people as a reason for cis women spaces, that happens anywhere and everywhere, I just think cis women do deserve their own spaces and they're entitled to protect them, including changing rooms in pools or whatever.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah, the risk of sexual assault by trans women in toilets is wildly overstated and a classic trope of this culture war.

Having said that, there is going to a transition period where a lot more thought will need to go into gendered spaces. Changing rooms in gyms/pools will probably need to all have individual cubicles as it’s not unreasonable for some women (and or parents of young girls) to prefer to not be exposed to strangers’ male genitalia when changing for a swim or a workout. The current, everyone get changed in a big room together, approach will need to be phased out.

Obviously not an issue in toilets, which already use cubicles.

What is frustrating is that the current Equality Act already allows for those kinds of judgments and decisions to be made. Yet the UK Government is acting as if we need to define sex as "biological sex", which will cause numerous more problems than the status quo.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Allowing men to enter ladies changing rooms simply because they declare a right to be there is fine then.

This isn't about trans people. It's about cis heterosexual men taking advantage of the fact those who might raise concern about seeing a man in a ladies changing room might decide not to for fear of being labelled "transphoic'

Entitled to safe spaces full of vulnerable women should not be automatically granted purely because someone declares their right to be there.

The mental gymnastics involved in declaring that statement transphobic is a sign of the state of the whole debate

You. Still. Haven't. Provided. A. Single. Piece. Of. Evidence. For. Your. Claim.

How many times does this need to be said to you before you finally respond to it?!

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Don't ignore him. Eventually he is going to cross the line too far, or too many times, and he's going to get himself banned. These ones always do.

He's playing 4D chess whilst the rest of us are playing normal chess where the King and Queen both walk into women's bathrooms with erections.

 

[The Corinthian]

But if you're going to sexual assault someone in a women's bathroom why not just walk in and do it? It's a completely nonsensical argument this whole "heterosexual men identifying as women for half an hour to sexually assault someone".

Plenty of places have unisex bathrooms without any issues.

I’ve worked with charities who have worked with women who have been abused, both physically and sexually to the point where the sight of a penis is genuinely traumatic for them. I’ve met a daughter who was abused over years by her dad (who had a moustache) that she was genuinely terrified of men with moustaches. Trauma manifests in different ways for different people but women only spaces, whether that be a refuge or a centre should literally be penis free.

 

[Schmiznurf]

The furore surrounding trans people and them assaulting others is especially ridiculous when constant stories come out about cis straight men sexually assaulting numerous people and children.

 

[Frosty]

The furore surrounding trans people and them assaulting others is especially ridiculous when constant stories come out about cis straight men sexually assaulting numerous people and children.

Trans women. Trans men seem to be forgotten in the discourse.

 

[Schmiznurf]

Trans women. Trans men seem to be forgotten in the discourse.

True, I honestly can't recall any hatred towards trans men which makes the trans hate even more stupid.