Yeesh.
Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
- Start date
Whenever I see a reply such as this, I’m always reminded of this K&P sketch:
Why don’t you try offering an opinion rather than positing ‘gotcha’ phrases?
You’re essentially saying “yeah, but what about these ACTUAL women?”.
There’s my opinion on you.
No, I’m saying shouldn’t a well known sports brand use sports women as brand ambassadors, as opposed to a trans actress/social media star etc.
Also, inaccurately summarising my point isn’t actually offering an opinion either. So what is your opinion?
Seems like you might be presenting a false dichotomy. I think they do use sports women as brand ambassadors. There isn't just the one position as far as I know. Serena Williams is a brand ambassador for instance. This lass is another one: https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/418553359116857943/
I dunno, but at an uneducated guess I think there are probably over a hundred brand ambassadors, all catering for various markets around the world. Doesn't seem much of a big deal to me if out of a large number of female brand ambassadors Nike employs one that's a trans tiktok personality. She probably has a massive number of followers and will probably help to sell some Nike stuff. Same as any other brand ambassador, Nike's paying her for enhanced access to her market.
I think in a time where female only sports is a hot talking point, with various sporting bodies still working on whether trans women should be able to compete along side biological women, the decision to appoint a non-sporting trans woman as a brand ambassador is pretty stupid. It just adds to the idea that a female only domains are being passed over for more deserving women and going to trans women.
I also wonder why the problem seems to be ‘this way round’. Why aren’t trans men sports ambassadors for men’s sporting items? Why aren’t trans men fronting men’s beauty campaigns? It feels like biological women are getting the short straw everytime.
I'm inclined to see commercial impact as the decisive thing here. A trans-women as a brand ambassador for sportswear is unlikely to hit sales to women, trans or otherwise, and could offer them gains in a niche market that they want to open. Sadly, their assessment may well be that a trans-man as a headline advertiser of a male targeted product could impact their sales to other men.
Companies are only just getting brave enough to use gay men in ads targeted primarily at a male audience. Openly lesbian sportswomen have been visible for a while and brands are more confident about using them. There's a commercial logic to believing that women are likely to be more accepting and certainly less inclined to reject a product for this kind of reason.
Oh yes, there’s no doubt in my mind the prevailing factor is the monetary bottom line and a cash grab for these companies. It’s all performative.
I’d be interested to hear your views though on Nike using Dylan however. You’re a prominent and knowledgeable poster on the MUFC and England women’s team. The earlier point I made is that there are at least 20+ Lionesses who would be a better fit for the sports bra ambassador. It would seem a more logical fit than a trans social media star. I mean, speaking from a perceptive POV it’s a poor decision (in my opinion).
My roommate was a trans woman who had a rant about employers who had multiple trans men and zero trans women employees. I looked her up after seeing your post- she's written something on the employment situation in church denominations* which accept LGBT people, and found that this is a broader trend.
"only two of the four officially trans inclusive strictly Christian denominations have one single out trans woman in a paid full-time position at any level.[...] Each of the fives denominations have trans people who were assigned female at birth, trans masculine people and assigned female at birth non-binary people, who have successful church careers and are lifted up as leaders and examples within their traditions."
*she focused on this because was studying in the divinity school, had been an army chaplain previously
Nike are the England kit supplier and most of the women's squad players already had sponsorship deals (Nike or otherwise) in place before the Euros. The "names" have all been offered new deals to extend contracts etc by their sponsors or are running down their old contracts in favour of new offers now.
Ella Toone is a Nike sponsored player, they use her Instagram account for photoshoots and she's got her own range of recommended sportswear with them. They've used several of the England players in campaigns this week. Russo has just done an Adidas-Gucci range photoshoot.
I'm not sure if Nike are interested in anything more subtle than Instagram view count and click throughs. That said, yeah, I'm so old that the whole concept of influencers and Instagram "famous for being famous" celebrity is completely lost on me - but that's not just when it comes to sportswear
Fair enough, I guess the point I’m getting at (and not making very well) is there is a plethora of female sports stars who would be better suited to promote the sports bra. I just referenced the Lionesses as they had a great result in the week.Nike are the England kit supplier and most of the women's squad players already had sponsorship deals (Nike or otherwise) in place before the Euros. The "names" have all been offered new deals to extend contracts etc by their sponsors or are running down their old contracts in favour of new offers now.
Ella Toone is a Nike sponsored player, they use her Instagram account for photoshoots and she's got her own range of recommended sportswear with them. They've used several of the England players in campaigns this week. Russo has just done an Adidas-Gucci range photoshoot.
I'm not sure if Nike are interested in anything more subtle than Instagram view count and click throughs. That said, yeah, I'm so old that the whole concept of influencers and Instagram "famous for being famous" celebrity is completely lost on me - but that's not just when it comes to sportswear
Yeah feels like people are talking as if Dylan is going to be the sole person used by Nike in advertising when in reality there a multiple across numerous sports.
The bolded statement implies that female domains do not (or should not) contain within their cohort the domain of the trans-woman. Another view would be that it should and does and that the domain most passed over in the female sporting world is unarguably and precisely that of the trans woman. This is irrespective of whether they should be able to compete as equals, it's still controversial even to recognise that trans women do sports.
You still seem quite keen to approach this as some sort of zero-sum game where the inclusion of one trans-woman necessarily implies the exclusion of a biological one. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point but I just don't see how this corresponds to the reality. If I have 200 female partners and add a trans female to my roster I now have 201 female partners. People might have the perception that "female only domains are being passed over" but in reality they're being added to. Perhaps rather than "passed over" or replaced you mean that the presence of a trans woman in and of itself necessarily dilutes all other female domains.
You mention the Lionesses as an example of "more deserving" women being "passed over" in favour of "trans women" but I'd be willing to bet that literally every single Lioness has a sponsorship deal in place and plenty of offers on the table - including a few with Nike. Like, just take a look at the Nike sponsorship page here. That gigantic list has now increased by one person. At any rate from my point of view the domain of the trans woman is just as worthy as any other of being pandered to by a corporate entity hell bent on selling it sports bras. If it's worthy of being marketed to (it'll turn a profit) it's worthy of being represented (pandered to).
I agree with your final set of questions and I understand the conclusion you infer but I also appreciate that approached slightly differently and added to those questions could just as easily reveal the persecution of a different group.
Consider: I also wonder why the problem seems to be 'this way round'. Why aren’t trans men sports ambassadors for men’s sporting items? Why aren’t trans men fronting men’s beauty campaigns? Why can't Nike market to trans women without uproar? Why are trans-women to be neither seen or heard until someone else has determined their exact fate? It feels like trans people get the short straw every time.
That would only apply if Nike exclusively partner up with sportspeople, which they don’t. Drake, Billie Eilish and Eminem for example also work with them.
For street wear and their fashion lines yes. Not really for anything sports orientated.
I think it might have been even more controversial if Nike had used a trans woman affiliated with a specific sport instead of the more general representative they ended up choosing.
Yes - that’s a valid point and entirely possible. Fundamentally it’s all just a cash grab. (Will reply to your other post when I’m on a laptop).
Why would it be offensive for a white artist to identify as black?
If that's the threshold. Not a disgnosed medical condition, just self-ID, how someone chooses to identify as, why would anyone have an issue with that?
Again, it's important that we distinguish between actual trans people and those who have grown out of (or maybe not) the student politics movement who have as much interest in changing gender as Uri Geller has in wooden spoons , but have hijacked trans rights with their "how dare you not accept I'm a fish" nonsense
If that's the threshold. Not a disgnosed medical condition, just self-ID, how someone chooses to identify as, why would anyone have an issue with that?
Again, it's important that we distinguish between actual trans people and those who have grown out of (or maybe not) the student politics movement who have as much interest in changing gender as Uri Geller has in wooden spoons , but have hijacked trans rights with their "how dare you not accept I'm a fish" nonsense
Don't be disingenuous. And silliness like your last sentence, an obvious attempt to belittle trans people, won't be tolerated no matter how you try to frame your "argument". Not to mention the silliness of your first sentence. Just knock it off.
There's nothing TERFY or transphobic to say people who have actually transitioned are not the same as people who self-declare a new (often completely imaginary) genders to win an argument on social media.
Same as I happily distinguish between those who are gay and those who announce they're dashflynsexual-fluid-queer simply because they want to post an argumentative Tweet.
In both cases, one is an actual minority who face barriers and discrimination. The other isn't.
Pretending that making such a distinction is problematic, is the problem
Same as I happily distinguish between those who are gay and those who announce they're dashflynsexual-fluid-queer simply because they want to post an argumentative Tweet.
In both cases, one is an actual minority who face barriers and discrimination. The other isn't.
Pretending that making such a distinction is problematic, is the problem
There's nothing I've said that belittles actual trans people. I'm happy to belittle those who have jumped on the trans movement and their allies that refuse to see the distinction.
Changing genders is incredibly hard and brave. How dare the Self-ID muppets trivialise that as they have. These are largely heterosexual, cis-gendered citizens of social media. Trying to force trans people to accept them as representative of their journey and struggle can feck off.
The debate around safe spaces and the rest of it is entirely separate. But the starting point cannot be 'I'm going pretend those that have a medical procedure are the same as those who want up and decide they want different pronouns on their Facebook page' because that is the most insulting to trans people.
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It's real sad that the right wing government and press have actually been able to whip up a frenzy of hate towards people who don't feel comfortable in their gender and has got to the point that this is actually a main topic in judging who is best to lead the country, it's like ignoring the subsidence that is happening to your house but freaking out over a picture in your house being crooked
Please don't trivialize my OCD.
Yep. Over here there's a new law restricting & further marginalizing being trans passed daily by Repiblican governors & Republican state legislators almost daily.
I find these arguments to be slightly one-sided. I highly doubt a lot of people "hate" transpeople.
I think the broader pushback in society has been towards language games such as using "pregnant people" instead of "pregnant mothers", or using the term "birthing people". I know it's a small minority trying to push for these linguistic changes but I wouldn't discount their influence.
None of this is happening, and I dare you to prove otherwise.
I mean it's hard to believe you hold any real sympathy for gay or trans people given how willing you are to invoke right-wing lies and caricatures.
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I wonder if a lot of people don't even think that transpeople are actually "real"? All they do is read Daily Mail news articles that talk about the big scary transpeople coming up from under the floorboards. Transpeople are made out to be some kind of childish nightmare, rather than being just the normal folk that they are. Because, shock horror, transpeople are also people.
My point is; I'd bet my right testicle that the majority of people who openly run around saying "they're polluting kids brains with fecking rainbow flags" have never ever interacted with a single trans person in their life.
Of course they have interacted with them. They just don’t know they did. Which makes this even sadder.
Pretending it isn't insulting to actual trans person to say "See that person who has no interest in undergoing the long, life-altering procedure to change their gender as you did to live your life as the gender you've always felt you were, but instead has just 'self-identifed' as the opposite gender? They're the same as you"
As I say, yes there is a WORLD of difference been trans people and those who are cosplaying. At some point the actual transphobia behind Pretending there's not is a conversation nobody is ready for
As I say, yes there is a WORLD of difference been trans people and those who are cosplaying. At some point the actual transphobia behind Pretending there's not is a conversation nobody is ready for
Are you doubting the expertise of the genitalia police?
it's strange how everyone in the genitalia police happens to be a dick.And pretending it is, is patronising towards the people getting riled up because of trans people. They are grown people. They deserve to be held accountable for the things they do and say, the demands they make, the policies they support and the people they support. So I really don’t give a shit what they might or might not actually want. They are supporting policies that are outright cruel and inhumane. They deserve the blame and the criticism that comes with it.
And if they only spout this bs because they get their news out of the daily mail, I have no sympathy either.
They chose this paper as their main source of information. And they did so despite the availability of papers that aren’t as bad. And if that paper happens to be racist, transphobic and so many other horrible things, they chose to enjoy reading that racist, transphobic bullshit.
feck them and their whole hateful and cruel ideology. Stop finding excuses for them.
Not sure about that. I think there‘s also quite a few cnuts among them.
Male genitalia being present in ladies toilets used to be a concern for the actual police at one point.
At some point when do we talk about the psyche of heterosexual men being completely relaxed about the presence of cock being waved about in women's safe spaces?
At some point when do we talk about the psyche of heterosexual men being completely relaxed about the presence of cock being waved about in women's safe spaces?
So was the presence of black people in white spaces. See how bad your argument sucks? It’s outright horrible. An embarrassingly bad argument. But to be expected by members of the genitalia police. Reasonable people would probably start questioning their obsession with strangers genitalia. But not you. You happen to be convinced that your weird obsessions should bother other people. It won’t work, gladly.
Inappropriate Behavior
How long would a man with an erection need to have self-identifed as a woman to gain access to a female bathroom? Would it have to pre-date the start of the stiffy? Minimum 15 mins buffer? Maybe it's an overnight thing? 48 hours maybe?
The real crime will be the TERF that reports to the store security officer that a man with a boner had just walked in. She can suck my vagina that I'm self-identifying as having until the end of this sentence.
The real crime will be the TERF that reports to the store security officer that a man with a boner had just walked in. She can suck my vagina that I'm self-identifying as having until the end of this sentence.
are you alright?
Surely the problem is rapists and creeps, not just a general penis being in the area?