Transgender Athletes

[flameinthesun]

I understand how open division works. It's pretty simple in theory.

But as in my original post it would "mess up" the game as in the man's division is already very highly competitive even a full grown natural man strive for every small advantages. Anything other than Natural male would stand no chance to compete. Hence the whole thing would become farcical. Accommodating, but it won't be the sports we knew now.

Take for example Athletics.

1. Everyone male/female/MTF/FTM can join
2. How do we decide who goes to Olympic? This will surely goes to Natural Man, what does the other gender have left to compete?
3. How do we decide the qualification? The bar must be set low enough to accommodate natural women.

Again I understand what open division means, i just don't see how it can work realistically.

And I say this because I see that's it is also not fair to let MTF compete in men's division, just like it's not fair to let MTF compete in female division.

MFT in male division : MTF can never win, all things assumed equal
MTF in female divison : Natural Women can never win, all things assumed equal
*When I say all things assumed equal is that they're both professional athlete at their respective sports. Off course A natural Men's amateur Tennis would still lose to Serena Williams.

Hence I think this is not "THE Solution" it's just passing the buck to the MTF, giving them hollow participation without any chance of ever winning

And I get your points, this is where a decision on what an open division would entail. If its restricted to female sex, mtf, ftm only then it removes the obstacle of men entering the division and destroying everyone whilst also giving those women who want to try their hand in the open division the option to do so.

However the reality is whatever choice is made there is going to be someone getting short changed. At least with the open division whether with men or without it keeps the competitive aspect of the male and female divisions intact, whilst creating an open space for trans athletes and potentially providing an answer to the problem of there not being enough trans athletes by allowing women to enter if they choose to do so.

 

[Carolina Red]

I understand how open division works. It's pretty simple in theory.

But as in my original post it would "mess up" the game as in the man's division is already very highly competitive even a full grown natural man strive for every small advantages. Anything other than Natural male would stand no chance to compete. Hence the whole thing would become farcical. Accommodating, but it won't be the sports we knew now.

Take for example Athletics.

1. Everyone male/female/MTF/FTM can join
2. How do we decide who goes to Olympic? This will surely goes to Natural Man, what does the other gender have left to compete?
3. How do we decide the qualification? The bar must be set low enough to accommodate natural women.

Again I understand what open division means, i just don't see how it can work realistically.

And I say this because I see that's it is also not fair to let MTF compete in men's division, just like it's not fair to let MTF compete in female division.

MFT in male division : MTF can never win, all things assumed equal
MTF in female divison : Natural Women can never win, all things assumed equal
*When I say all things assumed equal is that they're both professional athlete at their respective sports. Off course A natural Men's amateur Tennis would still lose to Serena Williams.

Hence I think this is not "THE Solution" it's just passing the buck to the MTF, giving them hollow participation without any chance of ever winning

As to 3 division (Female / Male / Open) then we're back to square one. Basically that means MTF would eventually have to start from scratch. A viable solution given time, but I don't think that's viable because who would sponsor a match with only 1 Lia Thomas. And even if in the future there would be more MTF swimming athletes, the numbers would be so small at start that no event could be held.

As I was saying above… you can start with 2 until numbers are high enough to break off and create an independent 3rd division.

 

[VanDeBank]

You seems to not understand the crux of the matter.

It's not about who can participate. It's who can participate and still make it a fair sport.

Lumping anyone on one division would create imbalance, I'm sure you can agree on this.

Qualifying you say? How and where do we draw the line? You have a problem with lines being drawn between natural man / natural women and you want another set of lines to be drawn to decide who can participate and that line must not be male / female?

Sure, let us know what you had in mind.

Please. Disagreeing isnt the same as not understanding.

Yes, the open division as I described it would just reclassify the mens division. So congenital females can compete fairly against other congenital females and transwomen dont feel offended.

It sounds to me like for you it's about transwomen having opportunities to win medals? They can compete in the open division but this isnt good enough for you.

not everyone can be a winner or top athlete. I cant play for Manchester United because of shitty genetics and bad life choices. Its the same dynamic for a congenital male taking or having taken hormone blockers. We shouldnt destroy sports for congenital females just because some people refuse to believe the science that says congenital males have advantages over congenital females.

i have no clue what you're on about re the qualifying. Youve misunderstood what I meant by qualifying

You implied mens sports would become a farce if women could compete and I pointed out women would not hit the times require/finish in the predetermined spots in qualifier events (like those that exist for national/european/world championships swimming or track).

You dont just sign up for the olympics by writing your name on a list.

It's a non issue you've made up.

Also most likely we would see female sex athletes trying their hands in open divisions as well as there are countless female athletes in multiple sports who have expressed wanting to compete against men for example.

That's great marketing talk, but if the Williams sisters got their asses whooped by the 203rd highest rated men's tennis player, then it's a fantasy.

The best female athletes are not going to compete at average men's amateur levels. There's no money in it and no one would care.

 

[Sky1981]

As I was saying above… you can start with 2 until numbers are high enough to break off and create an independent 3rd division.

Women sport is slightly different, they have the numbers to start with. Half the population is Female, and most of the sports have already incorporated female division from years ago. It's just a matter of promotion.

Most MTF athletes are too wide spread to provide the numbers for a proper competition. You can't host a swimming competitive matches with only 2-3 MTF (for a start) with different background and different abilities, and without competition there would be no new blood, no new blood = no competition. It's a cycle of evil.

I personally thinks the solution is
1. Handicap for time based / non team / non versus sport. Very doable with arbitrage calculations
2. MTF can join the male division to train / compete and in essence borrowing the sporting structure while having their own separate valuation that would be judge separately.
(E.g. Lia can swim with the male, but her winning / losing would be set based on MTF standard instead of Men's)
3. MTF can join the female division, but again on separate valuation. If they win they'd be given separate medal (at least for now) so it doesn't disrupt the natural women's natural progression.
(E.g. Lia Thomas Would win the current swimming MTF category by virtue of no one else competing, but in time there would be competition)
4. A par +1 or +2 down / up division. Say if a 500th ranked MTF transitioning to women, they would be pitted with 200th ranked to even up the competition. Or a better example would be a welter Boxer transitioning would be put to fight in Heavyweight Female division if it's applicable. Not every sport can do this though.

Off course sports differs from one to another, and each governing bodies can decide which method works best. Chess would use different method, while Boxing or any other contact sport would employ different method. And it could be a mix method by applying several "balancing" for the time being.

 

[Wibble]

That’s not what they said, though.

No but it is likely how it will be perceived.

 

[Sky1981]

Please. Disagreeing isnt the same as not understanding.

Yes, the open division as I described it would just reclassify the mens division. So congenital females can compete fairly against other congenital females and transwomen dont feel offended.

It sounds to me like for you it's about transwomen having opportunities to win medals? They can compete in the open division but this isnt good enough for you.

not everyone can be a winner or top athlete. I cant play for Manchester United because of shitty genetics and bad life choices. Its the same dynamic for a congenital male taking or having taken hormone blockers. We shouldnt destroy sports for congenital females just because some people refuse to believe the science that says congenital males have advantages over congenital females.

i have no clue what you're on about re the qualifying. Youve misunderstood what I meant by qualifying

You implied mens sports would become a farce if women could compete and I pointed out women would not hit the times require/finish in the predetermined spots in qualifier events (like those that exist for national/european/world championships swimming or track).

You dont just sign up for the olympics by writing your name on a list.

It's a non issue you've made up.

That's great marketing talk, but if the Williams sisters got their asses whooped by the 203rd highest rated men's tennis player, then it's a fantasy.

The best female athletes are not going to compete at average men's amateur levels. There's no money in it and no one would care.

Because if you want to give sports to Trans, you have to give them the full package. Giving them the chance to join without the chance to win is basically a discrimination. My problem is not with limiting trans, it's finding the best solution for everyone involved. Just because we have not arrived there doesn't mean the current system is correct. Calling this current solution of letting MTF competes with Natural Women wrong doesn't mean that's the be all and all for MTF athletes, we're still working on solutions.

So stop assuming I don't want trans to have their sport or how it's not good enough for me, or any other baseless accusations..

The other way around, I want a better solution to what we're having now.




And yes, Mens sport would either become a farce if everyone can sign up, or be discriminative. It'll be a dead zone for natural women / MTF as they can't realistically better than the natural men. So this open division is not workable.

If women would never hit the time required, why bother opening it to everyone? Token gesture? Yeah, you can join the open division, but you gotta qualify against natural men.

 

[Foxbatt]

Where does all this leave Semanya? She was born female and never took to change her sex. So why can't she compete as a woman though she has higher testosterones than usual women?

 

[Carolina Red]

Women sport is slightly different, they have the numbers to start with. Half the population is Female, and most of the sports have already incorporated female division from years ago. It's just a matter of promotion.

Most MTF athletes are too wide spread to provide the numbers for a proper competition. You can't host a swimming competitive matches with only 2-3 MTF (for a start) with different background and different abilities, and without competition there would be no new blood, no new blood = no competition. It's a cycle of evil.

I personally thinks the solution is
1. Handicap for time based / non team / non versus sport. Very doable with arbitrage calculations
2. MTF can join the male division to train / compete and in essence borrowing the sporting structure while having their own separate valuation that would be judge separately.
(E.g. Lia can swim with the male, but her winning / losing would be set based on MTF standard instead of Men's)
3. MTF can join the female division, but again on separate valuation. If they win they'd be given separate medal (at least for now) so it doesn't disrupt the natural women's natural progression.
(E.g. Lia Thomas Would win the current swimming MTF category by virtue of no one else competing, but in time there would be competition)
4. A par +1 or +2 down / up division. Say if a 500th ranked MTF transitioning to women, they would be pitted with 200th ranked to even up the competition. Or a better example would be a welter Boxer transitioning would be put to fight in Heavyweight Female division if it's applicable. Not every sport can do this though.

Off course sports differs from one to another, and each governing bodies can decide which method works best. Chess would use different method, while Boxing or any other contact sport would employ different method. And it could be a mix method by applying several "balancing" for the time being.

All that is solved by exactly what I said. You use 2 divisions (women’s and open) until numbers are there for a 3rd division.

There’s numerous sports that you cannot handicap. And even if you can in some, again, you’re talking spots from biological female athletes, which means you’ve still got the same issue you began with.

 

[stepic]

you can all think asking trans women to compete with men is a great solution all you want. it isn't. it's a complete non-starter. ignoring the fact that trans women are women, and therefore putting them in with men is just massively problematic for reasons beyond just gender dysphoria, it also is incredibly unfair - far more unfair than the current supposed unfairness on a small number of cis women. trans women are on hormones that literally make it impossible to compete effectively against cis men.

people keep saying 'this is the least shit way'. is it though?

option 1: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis women, and more or less compete on a par with them. sometimes they win, most times they lose.

option 2: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis men, and comfortably lose every single time. can you imagine how it would look even just as a spectacle for this to happen, seeing a trans women come significantly last in every major event they compete in?

everyone here advocating for 'fairness' only applies this rationale to cis women - cis women who continue to beat trans women more times than not, despite all their supposed physical advantages. if it's fairness of trans people that is mentioned, then suddenly it doesn't matter. some would argue that is problematic.

 

[VanDeBank]

But as in my original post it would "mess up" the game as in the man's division is already very highly competitive even a full grown natural man strive for every small advantages. Anything other than Natural male would stand no chance to compete. Hence the whole thing would become farcical. Accommodating, but it won't be the sports we knew now.

Take for example Athletics.

1. Everyone male/female/MTF/FTM can join
2. How do we decide who goes to Olympic? This will surely goes to Natural Man, what does the other gender have left to compete?
3. How do we decide the qualification? The bar must be set low enough to accommodate natural women.

Again I understand what open division means, i just don't see how it can work realistically.

And I say this because I see that's it is also not fair to let MTF compete in men's division, just like it's not fair to let MTF compete in female division.

MFT in male division : MTF can never win, all things assumed equal
MTF in female divison : Natural Women can never win, all things assumed equal
*When I say all things assumed equal is that they're both professional athlete at their respective sports. Off course A natural Men's amateur Tennis would still lose to Serena Williams.

Hence I think this is not "THE Solution" it's just passing the buck to the MTF, giving them hollow participation without any chance of ever winning

As to 3 division (Female / Male / Open) then we're back to square one. Basically that means MTF would eventually have to start from scratch. A viable solution given time, but I don't think that's viable because who would sponsor a match with only 1 Lia Thomas. And even if in the future there would be more MTF swimming athletes, the numbers would be so small at start that no event could be held.

The bolded is important and underlines what I already thought. You want transwomen to have a shot at silverware and instead of welding the medals yourself you want them to beat congenital females first to validate their achievement, even when it has been pointed out transwomen (ie congenital men) have an innate advantage that makes these two groups competing with each other unsafe and unfair.

Because if you want to give sports to Trans, you have to give them the full package. Giving them the chance to join without the chance to win is basically a discrimination. My problem is not with limiting trans, it's finding the best solution for everyone involved. Just because we have not arrived there doesn't mean the current system is correct. Calling this current solution of letting MTF competes with Natural Women wrong doesn't mean that's the be all and all for MTF athletes, we're still working on solutions.

So stop assuming I don't want trans to have their sport or how it's not good enough for me, or any other baseless accusations..

The other way around, I want a better solution to what we're having now.




And yes, Mens sport would either become a farce if everyone can sign up, or be discriminative. It'll be a dead zone for natural women / MTF as they can't realistically better than the natural men. So this open division is not workable.

If women would never hit the time required, why bother opening it to everyone? Token gesture? Yeah, you can join the open division, but you gotta qualify against natural men.

No mate, it's not discrimination if a guy with a 25 inch vertical isn't good enough to play in the NFL. It's not discrimnation if a congenital male chooses to take hormone blockers and therefore isn't good enough to compete with other congenital males.

A lot of people waive their chance at possibly competing at the highest when they make certain life choices. The fact that transitioning is important to them should not force us to pretend they do not have an advantage competing over congenital females, which is what these suits on committees are effectively doing by allowing transwoman to compete with and against congenital women. This is the actual issue at hand.

I'm criticizing their decisions because it's ignorant of the science, presumably because of public pressure, or because they're plain stupid. Either way, since you're so insistent on using this term, the real "farce" is transwomen competing against women and pretending they're physically one and the same.

In the absence of a transwoman's division, I don't see the point in fecking up sports for all congenital women to appease a group of people that want transwomen to be able to transition and win medals. How about they give up their chance at winning a medal instead of all other women giving up theirs and in many cases making it unsafe to compete at all.

Transwomen are perfectly capable of living fulfulling lives without medals, like 98% of this forum.

The women in red isn't some random small girl but an actual athlete at the asian handball championships. Would you want the women in your life competing against a transwoman in a physical contact sport?

 

[Carolina Red]

ignoring the fact that trans women are women

-

Socially, yes. Biologically, no. For the purpose of sporting integrity, you have to look at the latter.

 

[flameinthesun]

Please. Disagreeing isnt the same as not understanding.

Yes, the open division as I described it would just reclassify the mens division. So congenital females can compete fairly against other congenital females and transwomen dont feel offended.

It sounds to me like for you it's about transwomen having opportunities to win medals? They can compete in the open division but this isnt good enough for you.

not everyone can be a winner or top athlete. I cant play for Manchester United because of shitty genetics and bad life choices. Its the same dynamic for a congenital male taking or having taken hormone blockers. We shouldnt destroy sports for congenital females just because some people refuse to believe the science that says congenital males have advantages over congenital females.

i have no clue what you're on about re the qualifying. Youve misunderstood what I meant by qualifying

You implied mens sports would become a farce if women could compete and I pointed out women would not hit the times require/finish in the predetermined spots in qualifier events (like those that exist for national/european/world championships swimming or track).

You dont just sign up for the olympics by writing your name on a list.

It's a non issue you've made up.

That's great marketing talk, but if the Williams sisters got their asses whooped by the 203rd highest rated men's tennis player, then it's a fantasy.

The best female athletes are not going to compete at average men's amateur levels. There's no money in it and no one would care.

Saying that the williams sisters got wrecked and that the best female athletes are not going to compete in mens tournaments has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If there is an open division a women can choose, if they want, to compete in that division. A lot will choose not to, but there would most likely be some women who are happy to compete in it. In the majority of sports athletes compete in different divisions based on style e.g. swimming frontstroke, breast etc as well as weight divisions or in tennis competing in singles and doubles, mixed etc. So it would be another division that a female sex athlete could choose to compete in which has the added benefit of increasing the numbers of the open division if for example male sex athletes are excluded based on not wanting to seem to be pushing trans athletes into mens divisions. Regarding the point about what is the point for the trans athlete to compete if they cannot win a medal...well you are describing the majority of athletes in the world who know they have no chance of winning a medal, yet they compete because its what they love. An open div to me with or without male sex athletes comes the closest to resolving most of the issues.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

you can all think asking trans women to compete with men is a great solution all you want. it isn't. it's a complete non-starter. ignoring the fact that trans women are women, and therefore putting them in with men is just massively problematic for reasons beyond just gender dysphoria, it also is incredibly unfair - far more unfair than the current supposed unfairness on a small number of cis women. trans women are on hormones that literally make it impossible to compete effectively against cis men.

people keep saying 'this is the least shit way'. is it though?

option 1: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis women, and more or less compete on a par with them. sometimes they win, most times they lose.

option 2: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis men, and comfortably lose every single time. can you imagine how it would look even just as a spectacle for this to happen, seeing a trans women come significantly last in every major event they compete in?

everyone here advocating for 'fairness' only applies this rationale to cis women - cis women who continue to beat trans women more times than not, despite all their supposed physical advantages. if it's fairness of trans people that is mentioned, then suddenly it doesn't matter. some would argue that is problematic.

option 3: Trans women compete against cis women at every level of sport except for the very tiny % of women who compete at the very highest level. At that level each individual sporting organisation has to decide how to level the playing field. Which is what FINA have done here. A decision that is completely irrelevant for the vast vast majority of women, cis and trans.

Trying to drag decisions like this into the overall culture war around trans rights helps absolutely nobody.

 

[VanDeBank]

you can all think asking trans women to compete with men is a great solution all you want. it isn't. it's a complete non-starter. ignoring the fact that trans women are women, and therefore putting them in with men is just massively problematic for reasons beyond just gender dysphoria, it also is incredibly unfair - far more unfair than the current supposed unfairness on a small number of cis women. trans women are on hormones that literally make it impossible to compete effectively against cis men.

people keep saying 'this is the least shit way'. is it though?

option 1: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis women, and more or less compete on a par with them. sometimes they win, most times they lose.

option 2: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis men, and comfortably lose every single time. can you imagine how it would look even just as a spectacle for this to happen, seeing a trans women come significantly last in every major event they compete in?

everyone here advocating for 'fairness' only applies this rationale to cis women - cis women who continue to beat trans women more times than not, despite all their supposed physical advantages. if it's fairness of trans people that is mentioned, then suddenly it doesn't matter. some would argue that is problematic.

Do you have data on this? A source?

Saying that the williams sisters got wrecked and that the best female athletes are not going to compete in mens tournaments has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If there is an open division a women can choose, if they want, to compete in that division. A lot will choose not to, but there would most likely be some women who are happy to compete in it. In the majority of sports athletes compete in different divisions based on style e.g. swimming frontstroke, breast etc as well as weight divisions or in tennis competing in singles and doubles, mixed etc. So it would be another division that a female sex athlete could choose to compete in which has the added benefit of increasing the numbers of the open division if for example male sex athletes are excluded based on not wanting to seem to be pushing trans athletes into mens divisions. Regarding the point about what is the point for the trans athlete to compete if they cannot win a medal...well you are describing the majority of athletes in the world who know they have no chance of winning a medal, yet they compete because its what they love. An open div to me with or without male sex athletes comes the closest to resolving most of the issues.

By his own admission, the poster I was responding to cared about the medals. Don't take my post out of context.

And with regards to the Williams sisters, yes it's relevant. It proves the point that it's just talk and no woman would do it for the competition, but rather as a pr stunt.

Off course A natural Men's amateur Tennis would still lose to Serena Williams.

You act like this is a given, but this is bullocks and you have zero evidence to back this up. I'd put my money on a good amateur player any of the day week. The Williams sisters lost to someone that would smoke during changeovers according to his wikipedia page.

"Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centred around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager"

"I didn't know it would be that difficult. I played shots that would have been winners on the women's circuit and he got to them very easily," said Serena.

"They wouldn't have had a chance against anyone inside the top 500 because today I played like someone ranked 600th to keep it fun," was Braasch's assessment

And there's been other such male vs female contests:

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html

u15 footy teams have beaten women's teams at the highest level on more than one occasion:

What happened to girl power? Australia's national women's soccer team the Matildas lose 7-0 to an under FIFTEENS boys' side

" Australia's national women's soccer team have suffered a devastating defeat in the lead up to the Rio Olympics - going down 7-0 to the Newcastle Jets under-15 boys side. "

Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys

" Sweden's women's national football team suffered a crushing defeat during a friendly in Stockholm on Tuesday, with the country's top female players finding themselves shutout by an undermanned local boys team."

Anecdotally, one of the best Dutch female powerlifters I know benches 170kgs and juices (she's a former bodybuilder). There's multiple amateur men in her gym that are clean and bench that amount and the men's national record is easily over 300kgs. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't an amateur at every powerlifting gym capable of it. Strength and power production have a carry over in practically every sport. Women competing against men is a fantasy and I'm amazed we're discussing something so trivial on page 35.

 

[Sky1981]

Do you have data on this? A source?


By his own admission, the poster I was responding to cared about the medals. Don't take my post out of context.

And with regards to the Williams sisters, yes it's relevant. It proves the point that it's just talk and no woman would do it for the competition, but rather as a pr stunt.

You act like this is a given, but this is bullocks and you have zero evidence to back this up. I'd put my money on a good amateur player any of the day week. The Williams sisters lost to someone that would smoke during changeovers according to his wikipedia page.

"Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centred around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager"


And there's been other such male vs female contests:

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html

u15 footy teams have beaten women's teams at the highest level on more than one occasion:

What happened to girl power? Australia's national women's soccer team the Matildas lose 7-0 to an under FIFTEENS boys' side

" Australia's national women's soccer team have suffered a devastating defeat in the lead up to the Rio Olympics - going down 7-0 to the Newcastle Jets under-15 boys side. "

Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys

" Sweden's women's national football team suffered a crushing defeat during a friendly in Stockholm on Tuesday, with the country's top female players finding themselves shutout by an undermanned local boys team."

Anecdotally, one of the best Dutch female powerlifters I know benches 170kgs and juices (she's a former bodybuilder). There's multiple amateur men in her gym that are clean and bench that amount and the men's national record is easily over 300kgs. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't an amateur at every powerlifting gym capable of it. Strength and power production have a carry over in practically every sport. Women competing against men is a fantasy and I'm amazed we're discussing something so trivial on page 35.

Go make a thread on it and see how many people agree that a good amateur tennis player can beat Serena or Venus on their prime.

And just because it happens doesn't mean it's a fact and would always happens.

I could list professional team obliterating amateur (Andora vs. England, Macedonia, Australia vs. Vanuatu) or Judith Polgar a female playing chess against 20 opponent that's not even amateur while blindfolded.

FACTHS is a funny thing my friend.

 

[Carolina Red]

FACTHS is a funny thing my friend.

Not commenting on the post at all, but this is funny.

 

[VanDeBank]

Go make a thread on it and see how many people agree that a good amateur tennis player can beat Serena or Venus on their prime.

And just because it happens doesn't mean it's a fact and would always happens.

I could list professional team obliterating amateur (Andora vs. England, Macedonia, Australia vs. Vanuatu) or Judith Polgar a female playing chess against 20 opponent that's not even amateur while blindfolded.

FACTHS is a funny thing my friend.

How do I respond to someone that cites an instance of Judith Polgar giving a blindfold simul to 20 people "that's not even amateur" in an effort to downplay the differences in athletic performances between men and women?

Checkmate.

 

[Carolina Red]

I could list professional team obliterating amateur (Andora vs. England, Macedonia, Australia vs. Vanuatu) or Judith Polgar a female playing chess against 20 opponent that's not even amateur while blindfolded.

I am commenting on this though...

I know for a fact US women's Olympic team gold medalists would lose to good high school boys in the same weight class.

I've actually watched a Pan-Am Games bronze medalist get beat bad by one of our guys.

 

[Sky1981]

I am commenting on this though...

I know for a fact US women's Olympic team gold medalists would lose to good high school boys in the same weight class.

I've actually watched a Pan-Am Games bronze medalist get beat bad by one of our guys.

Just saying that there are always exceptions to the rules.

You get some good amateurs, but statistic wise professional athlete performs better than amateurs.

A MTF might still get beaten by a very good world class female athletes (as the olympics suggest) but the advantages they have over similar classed natural female is not up for debate.

 

[Acheron]

Yes, because he hasn't started on hormones yet. Obviously as soon as he does he won't be allowed anymore. When he does he'll start competing with men given that he's allowed, which is much less controversial for obvious reasons. Trans women would effectively be banned, not trans men.

Yeah, he's doing that and you're right about his case not being as controversial for obvious reason. No woman transitioning into men is going to be dominating any male category and I think that's also shows how the sex differences can't be breached by the hormone therapy.

So a man transitioning into a woman is going to be a problem even if he's not winning by this perception of her performing at a higher level thanks to her biology. Then a woman transitioning into a man is going to be handicapped even with the hormone therapy when competing against biological men. The former is a problem for the rest of the competition, the female athletes, and the latter is still and unfair situation but just for the transitioning athlete but isn't perceived as unfair for the competition itself.

 

[Carolina Red]

A MTF might still get beaten by a very good world class female athletes (as the olympics suggest) but the advantages they have over similar classed natural female is not up for debate.

I’m on your side (and science’s) on that.

 

[VanDeBank]

Just saying that there are always exceptions to the rules.

You get some good amateurs, but statistic wise professional athlete performs better than amateurs.

A MTF might still get beaten by a very good world class female athletes (as the olympics suggest) but the advantages they have over similar classed natural female is not up for debate.

You keep making this claim without backing it up with any evidence. You cite "statistics". Which one, show me?

The easiest way is to look at professional records and times in things like track, weightlifting etc and you'll see these times are very attainable by a somewhat serious young male.

This effect is more pronounced in sports reliant on power production than those that are endurance based.

The strongest woman (in the 87+ kg category) at the 2021 European weightlifting championships had a total of 276kg (24kg higher than 2nd place) by one Emily Campbell, weighing 122kgs at 176cm.

For comparison Angel Rusov, the winner in in the men's under 55kg division had a total of 258kg

There were 8 men in the under 62kg category that bested Emily's total.
They pulled more weight of the floor at half her bodyweight.

The men's heavyweight champion had a 485kg total.

And the rapid acceleration displayed in a weightlifting attempt has direct carry over to almost every sport except slow long distance endurance based ones such as marathons.

You're live in la-la-land if you think an amateur male doesn't stomp a pro female athlete in most sports and you've yet to make an argument citing data or numbers.

 

[Acheron]

Strength and power production have a carry over in practically every sport. Women competing against men is a fantasy and I'm amazed we're discussing something so trivial on page 35.

Some people don't realize this strength is not only measured into how heavy you can carry certain weights but it also translates into how fast a person is, how quick they can change direction, hoy much they can jump, etc.

In swimming distances between 50 and 100 meters can be seen as sprints, then 400 it's a mixture you still have to be fast and have good endurance and even in the 1500 meters you still need to swim at a fast pace. In freestyle, backstroke and butterfly most of the propulsion comes from the upper body.

Then like you said strength has a carry over to almost every sport and that's why you see almost every athlete training stuff cleans and deadlifts in order to further develop their power production and explosivness.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Where does all this leave Semanya? She was born female and never took to change her sex. So why can't she compete as a woman though she has higher testosterones than usual women?

Semanya has XY chromosones (male), internal testes and no womb. Presumably there was an issue in genital development in the womb that meant they weren't sure whether Semenya was a male or female when born. In terms of hormones and physical stature Semenya has all the advantages a male has over a female.

 

[Foxbatt]

Semanya has XY chromosones (male), internal testes and no womb. Presumably there was an issue in genital development in the womb that meant they weren't sure whether Semenya was a male or female when born. In terms of hormones and physical stature Semenya has all the advantages a male has over a female.

So in other words she has female genitalia but has no womb and has xy chromosomes. She should be allowed to compete as she has never taken anything to become a female. She naturally produce more hormones than most females.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

So in other words she has female genitalia but has no womb and has xy chromosomes. She should be allowed to compete as she has never taken anything to become a female. She naturally produce more hormones than most females.

XY chromosomes means Semenya was a male competing against females. I personally think this was a travesty for the female competitors that were put at an unfair disadvantage

 

[jojojo]

XY chromosomes means Semenya was a male competing against females. I personally think this was a travesty for the female competitors that were put at an unfair disadvantage

In honesty, Caste Semenya like most other DSD athletes in women's sports would have competed in the women's category through most of sporting history. The closest thing to a sex test would have been a "quick look" at external genitalia, and that would have been a rarity. As, in general that was pretty much the exam done at birth, that would usually correspond to birth certificate sex.

Genes, internal organs exams, hormone tests have changed our understanding of the concept of birth sex. But still, athletes like Semenya have always competed in the women's class. These days, we know that they form a higher percentage of elite female sportswomen than you'd see in the general population, but presumably they always have.

 

[Halftrack]

XY chromosomes means Semenya was a male competing against females. I personally think this was a travesty for the female competitors that were put at an unfair disadvantage

At least put a modicum of research into a topic before you vomit out a garbage take, please.

 

[VanDeBank]

In honesty, Caste Semenya like most other DSD athletes in women's sports would have competed in the women's category through most of sporting history. The closest thing to a sex test would have been a "quick look" at external genitalia, and that would have been a rarity. As, in general that was pretty much the exam done at birth, that would usually correspond to birth certificate sex.

Genes, internal organs exams, hormone tests have changed our understanding of the concept of birth sex. But still, athletes like Semenya have always competed in the women's class. These days, we know that they form a higher percentage of elite female sportswomen than you'd see in the general population, but presumably they always have.

You mean women with higher levels testosterone/more masculine traits. This is not the same as an intersex person.

 

[Acheron]

In honesty, Caste Semenya like most other DSD athletes in women's sports would have competed in the women's category through most of sporting history. The closest thing to a sex test would have been a "quick look" at external genitalia, and that would have been a rarity. As, in general that was pretty much the exam done at birth, that would usually correspond to birth certificate sex.

Genes, internal organs exams, hormone tests have changed our understanding of the concept of birth sex. But still, athletes like Semenya have always competed in the women's class. These days, we know that they form a higher percentage of elite female sportswomen than you'd see in the general population, but presumably they always have.

To me that seems like a different issue as we're talking about someone who was born in a way it's not as straight forward to determine her sex. For such case I think it should be determined how close she is to a male genetically but if it's a case she's somewhere 'in between' I think it would be ok to let someone like her to compete with women if they chose to; but I'm just wondering, I really don't know how much different to a female with XX chromosomes they are in terms of their genotype and physical capabilities.

 

[phelans shorts]

XY chromosomes means Semenya was a male competing against females. I personally think this was a travesty for the female competitors that were put at an unfair disadvantage

This is so plainly wrong

 

[Eyepopper]

Rugby Union & League just announce a ban on trans women playing.

 

[Denis79]

Where does all this leave Semanya? She was born female and never took to change her sex. So why can't she compete as a woman though she has higher testosterones than usual women?

My guess is that her testosterone levels are in the male range or else all the fuss around her would be just stupid.

 

[facund]

My guess is that her testosterone levels are in the male range or else all the fuss around her would be just stupid.

46 XY DSD individuals often have testosterone levels comparative to men (between 10-40 nmol/L) which is why the <5 nmol/L rule was introduced in by IAAF in 2018.
5 nmol/L is still high compared to what are considered typical female levels (between 0.25-2 nmol/L) but would be considered problematically low for most male's beyond puberty.

Caster was unwilling to resume taking the medication she previously took between 2010-2015 that would make it possible for her to compete in her favoured events (bizarrely these rules don't cover all events).
We can therefore be sure that her natural levels are >5 nmol/L.
I'm unsure if her actual levels have ever been made public.

 

[Denis79]

46 XY DSD individuals often have testosterone levels comparative to men (between 10-40 nmol/L) which is why the <5 nmol/L rule was introduced in by IAAF in 2018.
5 nmol/L is still high compared to what are considered typical female levels (between 0.25-2 nmol/L) but would be considered problematically low for most male's beyond puberty.

Caster was unwilling to resume taking the medication she previously took between 2010-2015 that would make it possible for her to compete in her favoured events (bizarrely these rules don't cover all events).
We can therefore be sure that her natural levels are >5 nmol/L.
I'm unsure if her actual levels have ever been made public.

Thanks for the in-depth explanation.

 

[Bobski]

Rugby Union & League just announce a ban on trans women playing.

Given the brutality of the collisions in those sports, and the research into CTE I am not sure they had much of an option.

Not a politically popular decision no doubt but once you get into sports with heavy physical contact between participants a great deal more nuance is introduced.

 

[Frosty]

Rugby Union & League just announce a ban on trans women playing.

Banned before contact rugby in schools?

 

[BD]

Given the brutality of the collisions in those sports, and the research into CTE I am not sure they had much of an option.

Not a politically popular decision no doubt but once you get into sports with heavy physical contact between participants a great deal more nuance is introduced.

But then what about born-females who are genuinely just extremely big and strong? If they're worried about risk of impact injuries, shouldn't it rather come down to a threshold of how strong/explosive someone is?

 

[VanDeBank]

But then what about born-females who are genuinely just extremely big and strong? If they're worried about risk of impact injuries, shouldn't it rather come down to a threshold of how strong/explosive someone is?

It just so happens that that how strong/explosive someone is coincides with their sex...

 

[jojojo]

But then what about born-females who are genuinely just extremely big and strong? If they're worried about risk of impact injuries, shouldn't it rather come down to a threshold of how strong/explosive someone is?

That implies that someone (who?) is going to be responsible on a case by case basis for deciding who does/doesn't play women's sport. It wouldn't be as simple as weight/height - if you look at sports using weight categorisation (like weightlifting) there's a huge discrepancy between what female and male competitors of the same weight can lift for example, the differences aren't that easy to define.

That said, I'm personally against unnecessarily stringent rules below the elite level. I just find it difficult to define "unnecessarily" in a contract sport.

I'm conscious that personally I wouldn't mind playing with/against a transwoman provided they were weak enough - but that just moves the boundary to a different place, one where a transwoman can compete provided they can't actually compete. Which is a cop out in terms of drawing up rules that protect women's sport, but also takes issues of inclusion seriously.