Transgender Athletes

The Boy said:
one of the main aims behind this should be inclusivity.
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At elite level sport should it be though?

In every other walk of life of course it should, but shouldn't sporting competiveness be the main aim in this particular aspect?
 
arnie_ni said:
At elite level sport should it be though?

In every other walk of life of course it should, but shouldn't sporting competiveness be the main aim in this particular aspect?
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It’s subjective of course, but for me inclusivity means everywhere all the time, if there are exceptions then it’s not inclusive.

It smacks of George Orwell’s “all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.”
 
The Boy said:
It’s subjective of course, but for me inclusivity means everywhere all the time, if there are exceptions then it’s not inclusive.

It smacks of George Orwell’s “all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.”
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100% inclusion all the time is discrimination, by that rationale Mike Tyson should be allowed to spar with Gina Carrano in the Octagon. Because, why bother with class? weight?

Again for the nth time classification is made for fairness, safety and competitiveness of the sport, it's not aimed with malicious intent to bar "LGBT", they're barred (for now) not because they're trans, but because they held an insurmountable advantages that would make the competition invalid. Just like any other classifications that are barred from entering the competition. For example

1. Olympics football only allow 3 senior player to participate
2. No player above certain age can join u-15.
3. Weight classification
4. Pro / Amateur / Semi Amateur
5. Elo Rating matching in chess. You don't pit 2500 elo against 800 elo, there are safeguard to make sure that doesn't happen. For a good reason.
6. Age Classification
7. Classification in horse racing
8. Age limit in NBA
9. Home grown rule in football
10. 50 minute rules in players development
11. Etc

Those are divisive classification that barred almost everyone not in their criteria from entering, it's not discrimination, it's common sense.
 
NotThatSoph said:
An open category and non-participitation is the same option. There aren't even close to enough trans people for any sport beyond a pure hobby basis, so any open category or a category for only trans people is just a creation made for people who want to exclude trans women from women's sport but for some reason aren't comfortable with calling it a ban.
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Unfortunately that is just how it will have to be and the initial athletes who form part of this third category will be seen as trailblazers but on the downside not have much competition in the initial years. You could argue they don't have much competition in the women's game either as they have biological advantages.

I can't imagine what it would be like in boxing for example if a person who is basically biologically male seriously hurt a female. It is a can of worms waiting to get out of hand and if we bite the bullet now and across the board promote transgender sport, the next generation will benefit from it.

People talk about inclusion but there are rules in every sport creating different age, weight and gender categories to create an even playing field. Nothing different here, people just need to use common sense rather than getting all PC.
 
Carolina Red said:
1) I have read it.
2) the article states that FINA is going to use it to solve the issue
3) I believe what they say

I’m sorry you have a problem with that, but you’ll be alright.
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oh, FINA say they are going to solve the issue are they. well that's great to hear! may as well just lock the thread (again)
 
Second Captains podcast had trans woman and competitive long distance runner/medical physicist, Joanna Harper, on the show. She’s one of the foremost experts on the science behind trans women in competitive sports. Made a point I hadn’t thought of before. Male puberty gives you a bigger frame and stronger muscles. Subsequent transition/T blockers won’t affect the frame but does remove some of the muscular strength. Obviously the bigger frame has an advantage in some sports (e.g. swimming) but the mismatch between frame and muscular strength could also potentially put trans women at a disadvantage. Which is food for thought.
 
Wibble said:
Below the elite level inclusion should be the norm. I think most people agree on that.
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the problem with rulings like this, is that it becomes a slippery slope. we've already seen arguments in this thread saying literally any trans woman competing in college where there are scholarship places handed out, is potentially taking away an opportunity for a cis woman, and so shouldn't be allowed. how far does that rationale take you? competing in junior sports is taking away opportunities for cis girls too, etc.
 
stepic said:
the problem with rulings like this, is that it becomes a slippery slope. we've already seen arguments in this thread saying literally any trans woman competing in college where there are scholarship places handed out, is potentially taking away an opportunity for a cis woman, and so shouldn't be allowed. how far does that rationale take you? competing in junior sports is taking away opportunities for cis girls too, etc.
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There’s an easy/practical cut off. In sports at a level where no competitors have mandatory blood/urine testing then trans women shouldn’t be forced to have tests or stopped from competing.
 
Regarding a third division I do think it wouldn't make sense to implement it due to the small numbers. Instead just have the female divison and turn the male division into an open division where male, trans and females can compete if they want.
 
flameinthesun said:
Regarding a third division I do think it wouldn't make sense to implement it due to the small numbers. Instead just have the female divison and turn the male division into an open division where male, trans and females can compete if they want.
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Instead of fixing one we ended up messing 3.

It's not funny when a female athlete decided she wants to box against male? Just because she thinks she can. And what about female that honestly just want to compete with man for gender equality. No harm done but the whole sports would be a farce.

Serena and venus might made it in men's tennis to prove a point but we'll have england vs. andorra all over. Andorra might not mind but the whole match would become a joke.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Second Captains podcast had trans woman and competitive long distance runner/medical physicist, Joanna Harper, on the show. She’s one of the foremost experts on the science behind trans women in competitive sports. Made a point I hadn’t thought of before. Male puberty gives you a bigger frame and stronger muscles. Subsequent transition/T blockers won’t affect the frame but does remove some of the muscular strength. Obviously the bigger frame has an advantage in some sports (e.g. swimming) but the mismatch between frame and muscular strength could also potentially put trans women at a disadvantage. Which is food for thought.
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This is something I've mentioned in here before, and why a science-based approach sport-by-sport is the only real way forwards. In some sports, a bigger frame, broad shoulders etc. will be an advantage regardless of a loss of muscle mass. In others a bigger frame will be dead weight an athlete has to lug around, similar to excess body fat except obviously impossible to get rid of.

I suspect that the fact that most sports were invented by men to be primarily played by men, will mean that trans women who retain some generic 'male' physiology may still have a competitive advantage despite the effects of hormone therapy. But policy shouldn't be built on hunches and unproven assertions.
 
Sky1981 said:
Instead of fixing one we ended up messing 3.

It's not funny when a female athlete decided she wants to box against male? Just because she thinks she can. And what about female that honestly just want to compete with man for gender equality. No harm done but the whole sports would be a farce.

Serena and venus might made it in men's tennis to prove a point but we'll have england vs. andorra all over. Andorra might not mind but the whole match would become a joke.
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There was an exhibition in 1998 against Karsten Braasch where each sister played a set each against him after they claimed they could beat any male outside the top 200 in the world, he was ranked 203 in the world at the time. He beat them 6-1 (Serena) 6-2 (Venus).
 
flameinthesun said:
Regarding a third division I do think it wouldn't make sense to implement it due to the small numbers. Instead just have the female divison and turn the male division into an open division where male, trans and females can compete if they want.
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Bingo.

Sky1981 said:
Instead of fixing one we ended up messing 3.

It's not funny when a female athlete decided she wants to box against male? Just because she thinks she can. And what about female that honestly just want to compete with man for gender equality. No harm done but the whole sports would be a farce.

Serena and venus might made it in men's tennis to prove a point but we'll have england vs. andorra all over. Andorra might not mind but the whole match would become a joke.
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No, the sport wouldn't be a farce if a woman wanted to compete against a man. They wouldn't even qualify at the top level. It's not even a problem that exists within adult sports.

No, the Williams sisters got their ass whooped by a male tennis player that wasn't even in the top 200.

Battle of the Sexes: When the World No. 203 swept the Williams sisters

Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys

Re: bolded, Nobody here thinks this is funny. Comments like this really piss me off. This is a serious subject and you've made it abundantly clear you don't know what you're talking about and have given this very little serious thought before posting.
 
VanDeBank said:
Bingo.


No, the sport wouldn't be a farce if a woman wanted to compete against a man. They wouldn't even qualify at the top level. It's not even a problem that exists within adult sports.

No, the Williams sisters got their ass whooped by a male tennis player that wasn't even in the top 200.

Battle of the Sexes: When the World No. 203 swept the Williams sisters

Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys

Re: bolded, Nobody here thinks this is funny. Comments like this really piss me off. This is a serious subject and you've made it abundantly clear you don't know what you're talking about and have given this very little serious thought before posting.
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Define open division then
 
Dargonk said:
I still feel that the solution is the make the divide purely based on biological sex, and then rename the men's division as Open. This way you still have two divisions one where anyone can compete regardless of anything, and a second for purely biological women.
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You're probably right.

But that does open a can of worms for "female" athletes who don't know that they have male characteristics.

This is rare but much less rare for female athletes compared to the female population at large (for obvious reasons)
 
VanDeBank said:
Open: Any athlete may opt to compete in the open division
Women: Congenital females

You could clarify 'open' further as : Congenital male, transgender, non-binary, and intersex.
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It wouldn’t surprise me to see wrestling formally do this. It is already de facto operating like this anyway.
 
rcoobc said:
You're probably right.

But that does open a can of worms for "female" athletes who don't know that they have male characteristics.

This is rare but much less rare for female athletes compared to the female population at large (for obvious reasons)
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No it doesn't. They're still congenital females.
 
Raees said:
Unfortunately that is just how it will have to be and the initial athletes who form part of this third category will be seen as trailblazers but on the downside not have much competition in the initial years. You could argue they don't have much competition in the women's game either as they have biological advantages.

I can't imagine what it would be like in boxing for example if a person who is basically biologically male seriously hurt a female. It is a can of worms waiting to get out of hand and if we bite the bullet now and across the board promote transgender sport, the next generation will benefit from it.

People talk about inclusion but there are rules in every sport creating different age, weight and gender categories to create an even playing field. Nothing different here, people just need to use common sense rather than getting all PC.
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Then call for a ban, that's all I'm saying. Don't hide behind new categories, making it seem like (royal) you want to create an environment where they can compete. Trans women will be banned from professional sport.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Then call for a ban, that's all I'm saying. Don't hide behind new categories, making it seem like (royal) you want to create an environment where they can compete. Trans women will be banned from professional sport.
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Why is it such an outrageous position when Para sports show that separate categories can work and be successful?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Then call for a ban, that's all I'm saying. Don't hide behind new categories, making it seem like (royal) you want to create an environment where they can compete. Trans women will be banned from professional sport.
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How is asking transwoman to compete in the open division more of a 'ban' than asking congenital females to compete against transwoman?

Is it a ban if a 39y old can't compete in the masters division?
 
stepic said:
the problem with rulings like this, is that it becomes a slippery slope. we've already seen arguments in this thread saying literally any trans woman competing in college where there are scholarship places handed out, is potentially taking away an opportunity for a cis woman, and so shouldn't be allowed. how far does that rationale take you? competing in junior sports is taking away opportunities for cis girls too, etc.
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I'd say that US college scholarship is elite sport given how few scholarships there are for most sports.
 
IWat said:
It's estimated there is a circa 1 million trans population in the US alone: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227946/ That's a far bigger pool of potential competitors than in some of the more niche Para catagories.
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That's everyone who doesn't identify with the gender they were assigned as at birth. Trans men, trans women, non-binary, gender non-conforming etc. The population of MtF trans people who have transitioned medically is much, much smaller.

And I'm not aware of a single Paralympian who is a professional athlete. Some have a few sponsorships, most of them train on their own dime in their free time and compete in a heavily subsidized event once every four years.
 
IWat said:
Why is it such an outrageous position when Para sports show that separate categories can work and be successful?
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Because it’s much easier to say they’ll have nobody to compete against and cry foul than it is to put in the work to expand participation and grow a sport organically.
 
VanDeBank said:
Open: Any athlete may opt to compete in the open division
Women: Congenital females

You could clarify 'open' further as : Congenital male, transgender, non-binary, and intersex.
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You seems to not understand the crux of the matter.

It's not about who can participate. It's who can participate and still make it a fair sport.

Lumping anyone on one division would create imbalance, I'm sure you can agree on this.

Qualifying you say? How and where do we draw the line? You have a problem with lines being drawn between natural man / natural women and you want another set of lines to be drawn to decide who can participate and that line must not be male / female?

Sure, let us know what you had in mind.
 
Carolina Red said:
Because it’s much easier to say they’ll have nobody to compete against and cry foul than it is to put in the work to expand participation and grow a sport organically.
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Agreed. Easy to just cry foul but the boxing example is one where it would be ridiculous to allow that to happen and there is so many sports out there where the physical contact element is dangerous. Does it need to get to the point where someone is seriously hurt before common sense is applied?

In every sport there has been a time where there is no professionals, it grows from amateur status and then becomes a viable sport. Yes it is sad that some are effectively losing out on a career and medals right here right now but they are doing the same to CIS females by taking their respective spots. Just need to suck it up for the good of trans sport in the long run.
 
Raees said:
Agreed. Easy to just cry foul but the boxing example is one where it would be ridiculous to allow that to happen and there is so many sports out there where the physical contact element is dangerous. Does it need to get to the point where someone is seriously hurt before common sense is applied?
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Agreed. I’ve argued the same point from a wrestling context… it could be dangerous.
Raees said:
In every sport there has been a time where there is no professionals, it grows from amateur status and then becomes a viable sport. Yes it is sad that some are effectively losing out on a career and medals right here right now but they are doing the same to CIS females by taking their respective spots. Just need to suck it up for the good of trans sport in the long run.
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Yep. I look at girl’s scholastic wrestling across the US and how far it’s come in the last 10 years… or even just in my state. We went from less than 100 girls competing in the state to almost 300 now. Now, girl’s / women’s wrestling is the fastest growing sport in the US… it just took being willing to put the work in.

The same can happen with trans athletes and a push towards a fully populated open division. Even if it means 2 divisions right now (one female, one open) until trans athlete numbers are high enough for there to be 3 divisions… that’s exactly what girls in my state had to do. There was no sanctioned girls division until literally this past spring. Any girl I’ve ever coached up to this season has had to compete in basically a single “open” division against the guys, until it came time for state, where the coaches association has had a non-state league recognized tournament for the girls. Now they have their tournament and their own division… because they grew their numbers and grew the sport.
 
Sky1981 said:
You seems to not understand the crux of the matter.

It's not about who can participate. It's who can participate and still make it a fair sport.

Lumping anyone on one division would create imbalance, I'm sure you can agree on this.

Qualifying you say? How and where do we draw the line? You have a problem with lines being drawn between natural man / natural women and you want another set of lines to be drawn to decide who can participate and that line must not be male / female?

Sure, let us know what you had in mind.
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An open division would be a division open to anyone whether Male, Female or trans, non-binary etc. Every athlete would understand that it is an open division and that a person of any gender can participate. There can be multiple ways to do it: 1) Open division and female sex division 2) Male sex division, Female sex division and open division. etc. Its quite clear that while the majority of mtf athletes do not go on to win championships and break records, nearly all greatly outperform their historical performances in the male division i.e. jumps of going from 500th to top ten for example. In reverse, you do not see ftm athletes outperform their historical performances. Therefore as it makes sense to have female only divisions in every sport due to advantages that a man would have in a female division i.e. they would greatly outperform their historical performances in the male divisions, it makes sense to keep the female division a female sex division, especially after all the work done over the last couple decades to get female divisions to stand on their own. Now this does not mean that you just go oh well trans athletes tough luck you can't compete anymore. If you have an open division that all genders can compete in then it does give them a space to compete in whilst also potentially solving the issue of there not being enough trans athletes to make a full fledged division. Also most likely we would see female sex athletes trying their hands in open divisions as well as there are countless female athletes in multiple sports who have expressed wanting to compete against men for example. A question would remain around whether you should roll the men's division into the open division or keep them separate but this would provide a solution for having a division that trans-athletes (both mtf and ftm) could compete in alongside willing female sex athletes with or without male sex athletes.
 
flameinthesun said:
An open division would be a division open to anyone whether Male, Female or trans, non-binary etc. Every athlete would understand that it is an open division and that a person of any gender can participate. There can be multiple ways to do it: 1) Open division and female sex division 2) Male sex division, Female sex division and open division. etc. Its quite clear that while the majority of mtf athletes do not go on to win championships and break records, nearly all greatly outperform their historical performances in the male division i.e. jumps of going from 500th to top ten for example. In reverse, you do not see ftm athletes outperform their historical performances. Therefore as it makes sense to have female only divisions in every sport due to advantages that a man would have in a female division i.e. they would greatly outperform their historical performances in the male divisions, it makes sense to keep the female division a female sex division, especially after all the work done over the last couple decades to get female divisions to stand on their own. Now this does not mean that you just go oh well trans athletes tough luck you can't compete anymore. If you have an open division that all genders can compete in then it does give them a space to compete in whilst also potentially solving the issue of there not being enough trans athletes to make a full fledged division. Also most likely we would see female sex athletes trying their hands in open divisions as well as there are countless female athletes in multiple sports who have expressed wanting to compete against men for example. A question would remain around whether you should roll the men's division into the open division or keep them separate but this would provide a solution for having a division that trans-athletes (both mtf and ftm) could compete in alongside willing female sex athletes with or without male sex athletes.
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I understand how open division works. It's pretty simple in theory.

But as in my original post it would "mess up" the game as in the man's division is already very highly competitive even a full grown natural man strive for every small advantages. Anything other than Natural male would stand no chance to compete. Hence the whole thing would become farcical. Accommodating, but it won't be the sports we knew now.

Take for example Athletics.

1. Everyone male/female/MTF/FTM can join
2. How do we decide who goes to Olympic? This will surely goes to Natural Man, what does the other gender have left to compete?
3. How do we decide the qualification? The bar must be set low enough to accommodate natural women.

Again I understand what open division means, i just don't see how it can work realistically.

And I say this because I see that's it is also not fair to let MTF compete in men's division, just like it's not fair to let MTF compete in female division.

MFT in male division : MTF can never win, all things assumed equal
MTF in female divison : Natural Women can never win, all things assumed equal
*When I say all things assumed equal is that they're both professional athlete at their respective sports. Off course A natural Men's amateur Tennis would still lose to Serena Williams.

Hence I think this is not "THE Solution" it's just passing the buck to the MTF, giving them hollow participation without any chance of ever winning

As to 3 division (Female / Male / Open) then we're back to square one. Basically that means MTF would eventually have to start from scratch. A viable solution given time, but I don't think that's viable because who would sponsor a match with only 1 Lia Thomas. And even if in the future there would be more MTF swimming athletes, the numbers would be so small at start that no event could be held.
 
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