Transgender Athletes

Wibble said:
Sounds totally unworkable and we would end up with an utter mess.
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In that case don't change a thing, people with DSD have been part of female sport and no one knew. So why change anything, if we don't want to do things properly?

And to be clear, this is a different case to transwoman/transman asking to be assigned in the gender they identify.
 
JPRouve said:
In that case don't change a thing, people with DSD have been part of female sport and no one knew. So why change anything, if we don't want to do things properly?

And to be clear, this is a different case to transwoman/transman asking to be assigned in the gender they identify.
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I know but you are then back in to try to measure testosterone or medically limit it which is a terrible and almost useless thing to do. Plus the evidence used for such judgements is usually confidential so controversy will continue to rage.
 
Apologies if some of this is long. Outside of the usual adherence to equal and fair levels of testosterone, naturally, there's other considerations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#B44-ijerph-19-09103
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16518218/

The researchers reviewed just under 100 studies published between the 1960s and 2021 across Europe and America, looking at gender differences in athletic performance, how testosterone affects athletic performance and transgender physiology after transitioning.

As per 2022 and 2004 Research above, even with trans athletes having lowered testosterone that is equal to that of a non-trans athlete, the following biophysical details were found :-

The review also found that while feminizing therapy may decrease muscle mass, it was not linked 'to loss of strength or muscle fiber density or performance'.
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One study showed that before transitioning, trans women airforce personnel recorded a 12 percent faster time for a 1.5 mile run than their biological female peers.

After two years of estrogen therapy, this had declined to a time that was still nine percent faster. The review said: 'While such results represent a marked decrease in performance, the running times of the transwomen group remain significantly higher than those of the biological women, despite prolonged estrogen therapy.'
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The review said: 'While such results represent a marked decrease in performance, the running times of the transwomen group remain significantly higher than those of the biological women, despite prolonged estrogen therapy.'
The athletic advantage of previous testosterone exposure can be put down to more muscle mass, longer limbs, a narrower pelvis and differences in lung and oxygen capacity.

These will not be affected by changing testosterone levels in adulthood, the review said.
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Biological men have roughly twice the cross-sectional area of upper body muscle and 30 percent more cross-sectional area of lower body muscle compared to biological women, one of the studies suggested.
Cross-sectional area is measured by dividing the muscle volume by its fiber length and is proportional to the maximum strength of the muscle.
Estrogen therapy may decrease muscle mass, but this did not 'associate with loss of strength or muscle fiber density or performance', the review found.
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In addition, bigger bones in a trans woman athlete also allow for a greater surface area for muscle. For instance, broader shoulders in men mean the potential build-up of more muscle, which would increase upper body strength, a study found.
The contrast in bone structure gives biological men, and therefore trans women, better pivoting power, which improves movements such as jumping and throwing, it said.
Stronger bones also mean biological men, and trans women, are better protected against injury and can endure more trauma than biological women.
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Estrogen therapy will not affect bone structure in trans women, the meta-analysis said.
A narrower pelvis has a direct effect on the angle between the knee and the quadricep muscle and is used to exert force during a knee extension.
The smaller angle in men and trans women means a greater force can be generated and works for sports that incorporate kicking a ball, pedaling or standing from a squatting position, said researchers from the California University of California Irvine in their 2003 study that formed part of the review.
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Furthermore, spikes in testosterone which occur when the fetus is still in the uterus and after it is born masculinize the brain, the review found.
MRI scans have shown increased connections in regions of male brains linked to motor and visual-spatial awareness.
This could explain why males invariably show higher levels of motor and visual-spatial skills.
The study said: 'There is little debate that better motor skills, visual-spatial skills, and proprioception [perception of position and movement of the body] will improve coordination and subsequent athletic performance.'
The variation in brain structure is clear in minors as young as eight.
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Additionally, there is a difference in the angle between the bicep and the forearm at the elbow.
Again, the smaller angle in men and trans women gives a greater force for sports that demand throwing and hitting with a bat or racket.
Women have, on average, a 10-12 percent smaller lung capacity than men, installed in the first few years of life.
They also have a shorter diaphragm which means their ribcage is smaller.
Both of these lead to females having a lower oxygen uptake capacity.
Women's hearts are also 85 percent smaller than men's, relative to body size.
Men have a larger left ventricle and thus a greater stroke volume — the volume of blood pumped out during each contraction of the heart.
A female's stroke volume is a third of that of males', meaning a woman's heart must increase more to give muscles enough oxygen.
Muscles need lots of oxygen delivered to them, and this is key to athletic performance.
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Men also have far higher oxygen levels in their arteries due to testosterone causing increased hemoglobin.
Hemoglobin concentrations are 12 percent higher in men than women, which takes shape during puberty.
The elevated hemoglobin plus the greater lung capacity gives men a clear 'respiratory and oxygen-carrying advantage over females', the study said.
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Researchers from the University of São Paulo in Brazil examined 15 healthy transgender women undergoing long-term gender-affirming hormone treatment, with an average age of 34.
The women had begun their transition at a median age of 17 and had been taking hormones for on average 14.4 years.
Alongside biological men and women for comparison, the participants had their testosterone levels, BMI, muscle mass and body fat percentage measured.
Their strength was also measured using the hand-grip test.
Their cardiopulmonary capacity — the maximum ability of the cardiovascular system to transport oxygen to exercising muscle and of the exercising muscle to draw out oxygen from the blood — was also worked out by participants running for as long and fast as they could on a treadmill.
The researchers found that while the transgender women had roughly the same testosterone levels as the biological women, they had around 40 percent more muscle mass.
They were also 19 percent stronger and had 20 percent higher cardiopulmonary capacity.
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I've block moved lots of posts to the boxing thread. Apologies to anyone whose post(s) I moved in error.
 
Sprinter set to be first transgender Paralympian

Valentina Petrillo is set to become the first openly transgender athlete to compete at the Paralympic Games, having been selected to represent Italy in Para-athletics in Paris.
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But Mariuccia Quilleri, a lawyer and athlete who has represented a number of fellow athletes who oppose Petrillo's participation in women's races, said inclusion had been chosen over fairness and "there is not much more we can do"
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https://www.bbc.com/sport/articles/cpvymmpyjeko
 
I mean they're not hiding what they are, were they really "revealed" as having transgender players?

https://www.theflyingbats.com/

The Flying Bats is the biggest LGBTQIA+ women’s and non-binary football club in the world.​



Whether you’re brand new to football, are returning after some time away, or are a die-hard fan who can recite the offside rule backwards, there is a team at the Flying Bats for you.
The two pillars of our club are football and family, so alongside games, we run dozens of social and community events each year, doing our part to try and make the world suck less.
 
It’s not a surprise, no. But it does kind of torpedo the argument that the advantages trans women have, athletically, is some sort of marginal issue that won’t have much of an impact on women’s sport because there are so few trans athletes. If you allow teams to be created with a large proportion of trans players then they can crush other teams and win major trophies. Which is a big deal if you care about fairness in sport.
 
Anyone who thinks it should be allowed needs to be shown the Aussie male under-15s thumping the ladies national team 7-0. I don’t really see how it’s even a discussion when fairness is basically the only thing that matters in sport.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s not a surprise, no. But it does kind of torpedo the argument that the advantages trans women have, athletically, is some sort of marginal issue that won’t have much of an impact on women’s sport because there are so few trans athletes. If you allow teams to be created with a large proportion of trans players then they can crush other teams and win major trophies. Which is a big deal if you care about fairness in sport.
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The flying bats have been fielding trans athletes for 20+ years, and while records are a little hard to find given this is a fairly regional competition they’re playing in, clearly they haven’t won in the last few years or else we’d have 100% heard about it by now by the usual suspects.

This feels a little confirmation biasy. When a team fielding trans athletes does well it’s the end of women’s sports (again), when they don’t do well (like seemingly most other recent years?) then it’s forgotten about.
 
stepic said:
The flying bats have been fielding trans athletes for 20+ years, and while records are a little hard to find given this is a fairly regional competition they’re playing in, clearly they haven’t won in the last few years or else we’d have 100% heard about it by now by the usual suspects.

This feels a little confirmation biasy. When a team fielding trans athletes does well it’s the end of women’s sports (again), when they don’t do well (like seemingly most other recent years?) then it’s forgotten about.
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That’s a fair point.
 
The difficult thing in applying generic transgender rights legislation to women's sport is that sporting inclusion isn't a problem until it's a problem. Typically that means if the transwoman isn't good enough to compete and no one gets injured in contact sports then no one's bothered. When a transwoman is a good enough footballer say, then people inevitably question whether any residual physical advantages are making the difference.

Personally I don't think there is a solution that is compatible with both full inclusion and fair competition across the full range of women's competitive sport.

In terms of the broader social movement for inclusion and trans-rights, women's sport is a side issue used as a wedge to undermine the broader social issues of equality and respect. The fact that it can be used to provokes a mixture of annoyance and derision is why it gets reported so enthusiastically. Personally I doubt that the team has done the cause of trans women many favours in sport or even in wider society, though I'm sure that it was indeed done to "make the world suck less".

That said - it is also a real issue for anyone who does care about the future of women's and girls' sport. Women's sport itself still has to fight for both visibility and respect. I don't think women's sports that rely on strength or speed, even those that also rely on skill like football, can include transwomen. Where/when the line gets drawn between sport for fun/fitness and competitive sport isn't easy and it's going to be a difficult process to navigate.
 
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