Because it’s taking away a spot to compete from a cis woman in a cis women’s sport. And yes, I do see that as a problem.
Transgender Athletes
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Mate, what the feck's the difference between a male that isn't transitioning (giving him a placebo, right?) and a cismale, physically?
So you want to measure the difference in athletic performance between men that know they're transitioning and men that don't? Instead of men that do transition and men that don't.
Yes the knowledge of being in transition will make you bench press less when tested
It's not like you can measure people in studies without telling them what it's for
And all this because, presumably you're afraid the women in transition will bottle the test so "their people" get lower handicaps?
I also think the point around how many Championships have trans athletes won or how many records they have smashed is a bit disingenuous. If an athlete in a male sport are not able to qualify for say the olympics through merit and are a fairly run of the mill athelete but after transitioning are able to qualify for the olympics and compete for titles in the women's field if not winning them, I think women should have a right to feel that that is unfair. Its not just the championships or records, its also the places for tournaments, qualification for olympics, regional tournaments etc that has a much real impact on non trans-athletes in the women's field. If trans-athletes in the womens field are statistically overachieving compared to their achievements on the mens field then that in itself points to an issue.
Each to their own, but personally I see that as discrimination and a huge part of the problem.
Surely the way to deal with this is to find a balance of fairness and inclusivity. I know we don’t have the answer yet and it is a very difficult.
But to say cis gender have rights over trans gender is not the answer. People don’t choose gender disphoria and shouldn’t be discriminated against.
In swimming there are 8 lanes, the best ones are the two in the middle. For the finals the faster times to classify get those lanes then the worst times get the lanes in the extremes. There's no way to accommodate someone in those events for symbolic medal, they would have to make a whole heat for that like what they do for some underdeveloped countries that are invited to the olympics as an exhibition.
It is, it's like saying if someone cheated in a competition it's ok as long as that person isn't winning the first place in every single competition. Something being fair is about the conditions of competing and if someone doesn't crush the competition it doesn't mean it isn't an unfair advantage.
Well, I see forcing biological female athletes to compete against MTF athletes as discrimination, so we are at an impasse.
The open division solves the participation issue.
Glad common sense is beginning to prevail. A third open category is the logical solution. Non participation is simply not an option.
How does this open division work then?
Read the article.
The article says **** all.
Okay, so what do you want me to do? Make something up?
An open category and non-participitation is the same option. There aren't even close to enough trans people for any sport beyond a pure hobby basis, so any open category or a category for only trans people is just a creation made for people who want to exclude trans women from women's sport but for some reason aren't comfortable with calling it a ban.
Then grow the sport, just like every other sport has done for their entire existence. An open division will allow that to happen organically.
Is it not discrimination against cis women who may lose out to a transgender athlete that is at an advance from being the opposite sex before transition?
Well you were the one who said the open division ‘solves the participation issue’. Clearly it doesn’t and you haven’t even read the article you said explained it.
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Some must be trolling in here.
Oh man this is a difficult issue to solve
No, telling people theyre transitioning does not increase their vo2max, their standing vertical jump, or bench press unless you've just told us Ronaldo's secret.
There's also no reason to separate the test subjects on shampoo preferences, because there's no mechanism conceivable by which shampoo choice affects any of the aforementioned tests.
1) I have read it.
2) the article states that FINA is going to use it to solve the issue
3) I believe what they say
I’m sorry you have a problem with that, but you’ll be alright.
Not individually but it could be argued that no option is discrimination free so allowing trans women to compete at the elite level discriminates against far more people than does banning trans women. Least shit option?
It is. All options are unfair to some people and an open category solves nothing as a) there won't be enough competitors to make a competition and b) I'd guess that most trans women want to be treated as women and not a separate group.
Would having a third category be too offensive to transgender people? Male, female, and transgender. I think it's important not to exclude, but is the answer to give them their own category they can compete in and then they can win medals and set records.
Im in the probably unusual position of having two old friends who have offspring who have transitioned. Both went from male to female, both went through the transition after the age of 18. There are strong emotions in among the parents and kids with respect to bigotry etc. I have not yet broached the subject of sports and transgender people because of fear of wandering into the grey area of perception of opinions. Thats the difficult bit sometimes to me. There are opinions and then there are perceptions of peoples opinion and in difficult issues such as this its so easy for people to get them confused. ( As a complete aside the children involved are happy and active and surrounded by people who accept them without question. I fear for those going through the process who dont have that.)
I wonder if over time thats what will happen. Right now we are in that period in history where society is trying to work things out.
I'm in a similar position. My nephew transitioned a few years ago at about the same age. I haven't discussed trans in sport with him or his family partly because he is in Northern Ireland so we see him rarely and partly because I'd be very cautious raising the subject for obvious reasons. And he is now a much happier person than pre-transition also largely due to family support.
Good move. This is not even discrimination against trans women at all. Hormones aren’t gonna take away the physical advantages gained in puberty like ones height.
If there are no trans people to form their own category then the solution is having cis women category and open category. I’m pretty sure men don’t care.
If there are no trans people to form their own category then the solution is having cis women category and open category. I’m pretty sure men don’t care.
I think there should be allowances for younger people who are trans to be able to compete in school as the gender they identify with. But when you have transitioned after puberty or after high school, it doesn't make a lot of sense to admit these athletes into elite competitions. For kids, you don't want to prevent them from being who they are, but for adults, you have to err on the side of fairness.
I still feel that the solution is the make the divide purely based on biological sex, and then rename the men's division as Open. This way you still have two divisions one where anyone can compete regardless of anything, and a second for purely biological women.
Same problem. MTF joining male division means they cant win ever. It's not fair
In the end professional sports is about winning.
And no natural women would join. Basically it'll be a dead zone
Below the elite level inclusion should be the norm. I think most people agree on that.
If hormones cannot help transmales athletes to compete with males, then the opposite should be true and in that case it’s unfair on ciswomen.
So since we don’t want unfairness on transfemales and we don’t want unfairness on cisfemales which is a problem that was ignored until recently
They're not banned from competing, they just cannot compete with women if their sex is male.
For instance there was another transgender competing aside from Lia Thomas. I can't even remember the name but he was a transgender man. He has no problem whatsoever competing with women, and nor the rest of girls competing, as is for his best interest to remain in the women's category.
Iszac Henig
When the alternative is dropping them into a division where they have an advantage, I feel it is better, even if their odds of winning are significantly reduced. That way they have the option of competing still, while not gaining an advantage over their division. It isn't the aim to give them a means to win, but not to disadvantage every other athlete in the division. If you give them their own division, it will be a couple of people competing only, and not really an actual competition for most sports.
Yes, because he hasn't started on hormones yet. Obviously as soon as he does he won't be allowed anymore. When he does he'll start competing with men given that he's allowed, which is much less controversial for obvious reasons. Trans women would effectively be banned, not trans men.
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A third category is just for show because there aren't enough trans people. Lia Thomas would be competing alone, obviously that's not a working solution. A third category and a ban is the same thing.
Agreed.
I’m not sure an open division or a trans division as others have suggested is the answer either as it means treating trans women differently and one of the main aims behind this should be inclusivity. You’re still not treating them as women, when that’s what they are.