Transgender Athletes

The world athletics council have gone for a complete ban on trans-women competing in the women's events if they've been through male puberty. The chances are that most national athletics associations will follow this model.

They've also reduced the maximum allowable testosterone level for the women's events. A change that will mean that many DSD athletes will need to take testosterone reducing drugs for years in order to compete.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...excludes-transgender-women-from-female-events
 
ThehatchetMan said:
I'm concerned my thread must have been taken as offensive seeing as it was locked. So apologies for anyone I offended. I just feel contensus topics like dating trans people should be open for discussion because it's important to have these discussions and open dialogue and get different perspectives.
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The thread wasn't inherently offensive but in the General you know the only way is down and it had already started down that route.

If such a discussion is needed then this forum would be the place but perhaps as a more general thread about trans people interactions with cis people (and others) in society would be a better idea? Dating, uni sex/women's toilets and other issues could be discussed maturely. In the general it would have been a car crash.
 
Wibble said:
The thread wasn't inherently offensive but in the General you know the only way is down and it had already started down that route.

If such a discussion is needed then this forum would be the place but perhaps as a more general thread about trans people interactions with cis people (and others) in society would be a better idea? Dating, uni sex/women's toilets and other issues could be discussed maturely. In the general it would have been a car crash.
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That's why I'm continuing the discussion here mate. I didn't want to recreate the thread incase it was an issue.
 
Austin Killips: Transgender cyclist wins UCI event
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Austin Killips has become the first transgender athlete to win a UCI women's stage race at the Tour of the Gila in New Mexico.

The 27-year-old American won stage five on Sunday to clinch the overall title, plus the 'Queen of the Mountains' jersey for best climber.
Killips, a transgender woman, thanked fellow riders for their support after "a week of nonsense on the internet", but her win has reignited the debate over transgender athletes competing in female events. American three-time Olympian Inga Thompson said the UCI - cycling's global governing body - was "killing off women's cycling".

Killips - who started racing in 2019 and also competes in cyclocross - finished eight seconds ahead of Mexican rider Marcela Prieto on stage five, and topped the general classification by one minute and 29 seconds.

Austin Killips: Transgender cyclist wins UCI event - BBC Sport
 
EXCLUSIVE 'I haven't cheated, I've not taken somebody's prize money away': Trans woman who ran in female category at London Marathon defends taking part after photos show her competing in New York men’s race just five months ago
  • Glenique Frank, 54, said she hasn't cheated any other athletes out of a prize
  • Olympian Mara Yamauchi said 14,000 women had placings worsened as a result
A transgender athlete who ran the London Marathon in the female category has defended her decision to take part.

Glenique Frank, 54, from Northamptonshire, hit back at claims it was 'wrong and unfair' for her to compete in the female category of Sunday's mass race in London, crossing the line with a time of 4hr 11min 28sec.

During Frank's gruelling 26.2-mile race in the 50-54 age bracket, the personal trainer said she was 'almost in tears' at all the support she received from women around the course.

But she was the subject of criticism by Olympian Mara Yamauchi claimed it was 'wrong and unfair' to allow her to compete in the female category and that 14,000 female runners had 'suffered a worse finish position' because of Frank.

Transgender athlete who ran in female category at London Marathon defends taking part | Daily Mail Online
 
The Corinthian said:
Austin Killips: Transgender cyclist wins UCI event
_129566485_gettyimages-1246413919.jpg



Austin Killips has become the first transgender athlete to win a UCI women's stage race at the Tour of the Gila in New Mexico.

The 27-year-old American won stage five on Sunday to clinch the overall title, plus the 'Queen of the Mountains' jersey for best climber.
Killips, a transgender woman, thanked fellow riders for their support after "a week of nonsense on the internet", but her win has reignited the debate over transgender athletes competing in female events. American three-time Olympian Inga Thompson said the UCI - cycling's global governing body - was "killing off women's cycling".

Killips - who started racing in 2019 and also competes in cyclocross - finished eight seconds ahead of Mexican rider Marcela Prieto on stage five, and topped the general classification by one minute and 29 seconds.

Austin Killips: Transgender cyclist wins UCI event - BBC Sport
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From that article, it seems like her peers are supportive of this? And then there's this

"The UCI rules are based on the latest scientific knowledge and have been applied in a consistent manner. The UCI continues to follow the evolution of scientific findings and may change its rules in the future as scientific knowledge evolves."
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The Corinthian said:
EXCLUSIVE 'I haven't cheated, I've not taken somebody's prize money away': Trans woman who ran in female category at London Marathon defends taking part after photos show her competing in New York men’s race just five months ago
  • Glenique Frank, 54, said she hasn't cheated any other athletes out of a prize
  • Olympian Mara Yamauchi said 14,000 women had placings worsened as a result
A transgender athlete who ran the London Marathon in the female category has defended her decision to take part.

Glenique Frank, 54, from Northamptonshire, hit back at claims it was 'wrong and unfair' for her to compete in the female category of Sunday's mass race in London, crossing the line with a time of 4hr 11min 28sec.

During Frank's gruelling 26.2-mile race in the 50-54 age bracket, the personal trainer said she was 'almost in tears' at all the support she received from women around the course.

But she was the subject of criticism by Olympian Mara Yamauchi claimed it was 'wrong and unfair' to allow her to compete in the female category and that 14,000 female runners had 'suffered a worse finish position' because of Frank.

Transgender athlete who ran in female category at London Marathon defends taking part | Daily Mail Online
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And this is just a complete non-issue, stirred up by someone who seems to have no respect for trans people (not surprising given the article's source). A mass participation event, she ran in the 50-54 age category, and then you have this bigot coming along saying that she 14,000 women 'suffered a worse finishing position'. As if anyone cares about their particular finishing position in such a mass event, outside of the top couple of hundred.
 
A fellow cyclist retired recently because of the allowance of trans athletes.

Killips’ emergence on the cyclocross circuit was part of the reason Hannah Arensman, a 35-time winner on the national cyclocross circuit, retired from the sport recently.

Arensman’s protest towards transgender cyclists competing in the women’s category made it all the way to the supreme court in the United States.

“I was born into a family of athletes. Encouraged by my parents and siblings, I competed in sports from a young age, and I followed in my sister’s footsteps, climbing the ranks to become an elite cyclocross racer,” her message read.

“Over the past few years, I have had to race directly with male cyclists in women’s events. As this has become more of a reality, it has become increasingly discouraging to train as hard as I do only to have to lose to a man with the unfair advantage of an androgenized body that intrinsically gives him an obvious advantage over me, no matter how hard I train.

“I have decided to end my cycling career. At my last race at the recent UCI Cyclocross National Championships in the elite women’s category in December 2022, I came in 4th place, flanked on either side by male riders awarded 3rd and 5th places. My sister and family sobbed as they watched a man finish in front of me, having witnessed several physical interactions with him throughout the race.
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BD said:
From that article, it seems like her peers are supportive of this? And then there's this
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And this...

World cycling’s governing body, the UCI, has signalled a shift in its transgender policy just days after Austin Killips sparked controversy by becoming the first transgender athlete to win a UCI women’s stage race. In a notable change in tone, the UCI admitted it had heard the “concerns” of female athletes about unfair competition in the sport, and would be reopening its consultation with a view to reaching a decision in August.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-policy-concerns-reopens-consultation-cycling
 
British Cycling to ban transgender women from competing in female category


British Cycling is to ban transgender women from the female category of its competitions following a nine-month review and consultation.

Under a new participation policy that the governing body said was "predicated on fairness", such athletes will compete in an 'open category' with men.
The female category will be "for those whose sex was assigned female at birth".

The changes will prevent rider Emily Bridges - the country's highest-profile transgender cyclist - potentially being part of the British women's team.

Last year she was stopped from competing in her first elite women's race by the UCI - cycling's world federation - despite meeting the rules at the time.

British Cycling to ban transgender women from competing in female category - BBC Sport
 
This is why a congruent stance on this subject is key. Otherwise you get a Mish mash of policy, misunderstandings, confusion and disappointment.

You also make it a much bigger than needed when you deny something is happening because of your policy. Then people can show only it to happen repeatedly, so you deny deny deny, then quickly change policy when the backlash gets too great.

It is unfair on cis and trans athletes alike and shows a real lack of compassion and intellect.
 
maniak said:
She touched all the key points, it's about fairness, it's biology, I'm a girl they are not. Bigots will love her.
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This idea that biology, genetics, muscle mass across the sexes etc etc has no bearing on sporting integrity is genuinely batshit mental.
 
The Corinthian said:
This idea that biology, genetics, muscle mass across the sexes etc etc has no bearing on sporting integrity is genuinely batshit mental.
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I was commenting her comment. When she calls herself the fastest girl, the message is clear and the type of people she's trying to appeal to is also clear. No point in discussing valid concerns when this is the starting point.
 
maniak said:
I was commenting her comment. When she calls herself the fastest girl, the message is clear and the type of people she's trying to appeal to is also clear. No point in discussing valid concerns when this is the starting point.
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I think you have to really be looking for an angle to think she's trying to appeal to a certain type of person.

Her concerns are obvious, we all understand them.
 
Camilo said:
I think you have to really be looking for an angle to think she's trying to appeal to a certain type of person.

Her concerns are obvious, we all understand them.
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What do you think her goal is in saying she's the fastest girl when she just lost to other girls? My interpretation is that she's saying the other girls aren't really girls.
 
maniak said:
What do you think her goal is in saying she's the fastest girl when she just lost to other girls? My interpretation is that she's saying the other girls aren't really girls.
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We all know what she's saying.
 
What is a 20 year old woman doing competing against girls?

Shades of Michael Owen. Well done Chelsea, she's 13.
 
maniak said:
I was commenting her comment. When she calls herself the fastest girl, the message is clear and the type of people she's trying to appeal to is also clear. No point in discussing valid concerns when this is the starting point.
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Whatever term she calls herself is irrelevant and after the point. The reality and facts are that she's losing races to transgender women. That's the point and the issue which you seem to be missing.
 
The Corinthian said:
Whatever term she calls herself is irrelevant and after the point. The reality and facts are that she's losing races to transgender women. That's the point and the issue which you seem to be missing.
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I mentioned a couple of posts back it's an important debate, but when this dog whistling is the starting point, I doubt much can be achieved.
 
maniak said:
I mentioned a couple of posts back it's an important debate, but when this dog whistling is the starting point, I doubt much can be achieved.
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Nothing will be achieved with your attitude. Don't worry about the language, worry about the sentiment.
 
Camilo said:
Nothing will be achieved with your attitude. Don't worry about the language, worry about the sentiment.
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Don't worry about the language? The language indicates someone is not entering a discussion in good faith.
 
I think there are so many sides to the arguments as to whether transgender people should compete in a sport in the sex they feel

in most cases, the ‘female’ has gone through all or a large chunk of puberty and have thus benefited from all that testosterone - giving them a huge, and in my opinion, completely unfair advantage over girls and women who can’t produce what a male body can.

the flip side to this is that there are a number of conditions where people are born with xx (male) chromosomes but during some point in the development the body decided not produce male body parts and the person is born looking female and on the birth certificate they are female. It’s only at some point when they get older that something comes to light and after some tests it is discovered they have xy chromosomes ( eg the girl doesn’t start her period and tests are done to find out why). In some cases, people have been know to have xy chromosomes but also a womb.

at this point, the majority of girls have been raised as a girl, affiliate themselves as female etc. these people are often then put on testosterone blockers and will need the aid of estrogen pills or patches so their body can produce breasts etc. they have absolutely no advantage over girls with xx chromosomes

so given the two above cases, one person has been raised as a boy, benefitted from all that testosterone and then decided they affiliate as female and compete in female competitions. The other also has xy chromosomes but never received any testosterone.

should the two cases be treated equally, should those who have benefitted from testosterone not be allowed to compete in female competitions?

what say the caf?
 
maniak said:
I mentioned a couple of posts back it's an important debate, but when this dog whistling is the starting point, I doubt much can be achieved.
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What dog whistling? She's a girl and gave herself a moniker as the fastest girl in Connecticut. If I say 'I'm the best poster on this forum' is that dog whistling and offensive to other posters on the forum? It's a ludicrous point you're making.

The fact is she's a sports woman who is being beaten by transwomen in sport. That's the key part of the story - not what she calls herself.
 
This subject is so fraught and toxic it's insane and makes me think it's part of a chemtrails offensive by some rogue state to bamboozle western cultures.

I saw all of the response (before it was aired) of the channel 4 programme "Gender Wars" and again, thought the same.

At times the debate feels like fodder, akin to the two minute hate in 1984. You can either scream at a bigot and feel great about yourself or you can scream at a groomer and feel great about yourself.

This girl athlete might have a greivance or legitimate concern but because this is today and this is the environment we are in, it's just more chum for the "culture war" which keeps us glued to social media and ever the more Partizan.

Even if I was to agree with her or support her right to raise her concern, I'll be lumped in with people I hate such as the gross and nasty little worms like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro or Steven Crowder.

As Dr Manhattan said: I'm tired of Earth.
 
The Corinthian said:
What dog whistling? She's a girl and gave herself a moniker as the fastest girl in Connecticut. If I say 'I'm the best poster on this forum' is that dog whistling and offensive to other posters on the forum? It's a ludicrous point you're making.

The fact is she's a sports woman who is being beaten by transwomen in sport. That's the key part of the story - not what she calls herself.
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I don't think it's innocent at all, I see it as a dog whistle to people who think transgender girls are not really girls. But I don't know this woman, so I may be wrong. You're example about this forum is not comparable at all, it makes no sense.

By the way, another fun fact, she has won titles before beating other transgender girls.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
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I just love how in all these stories it's always absolute nobodies who make up ridiculous claims of being robbed of made up achievements while having been beaten by multiple cis woman in the process as well.
Without checking the story I'd be willing to bet big money that she never was and never will be the fastest in Connecticut even if you only take cis girls but the right wing press loves to jump on these future suburban mom stories that love the attention.
 
Kasper said:
I just love how in all these stories it's always absolute nobodies who make up ridiculous claims of being robbed of made up achievements while having been beaten by multiple cis woman in the process as well.
Without checking the story I'd be willing to bet big money that she never was and never will be the fastest in Connecticut even if you only take cis girls but the right wing press loves to jump on these future suburban mom stories that love the attention.
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I googled some of her results, she has won and lost against cis girls, and she has won and lost against transgender girls.
 
The Corinthian said:
What dog whistling? She's a girl and gave herself a moniker as the fastest girl in Connecticut. If I say 'I'm the best poster on this forum' is that dog whistling and offensive to other posters on the forum? It's a ludicrous point you're making.
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"Best poster" is a completely subjective criteria, and you're not invalidating other posters' posterhood by claiming you're the best.

Being the fastest is an objective measure, and by saying ahe's the fastest girl, she's saying all those trans girls that beat her aren't actually girls so they don't count. Hence it's a dog whistle, meant to get bigots to nod approvingly.
 
Halftrack said:
"Best poster" is a completely subjective criteria, and you're not invalidating other posters' posterhood by claiming you're the best.

Being the fastest is an objective measure, and by saying ahe's the fastest girl, she's saying all those trans girls that beat her aren't actually girls so they don't count. Hence it's a dog whistle, meant to get bigots to nod approvingly.
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It's not a serious claim though. It's a brand, or a moniker. The other poster even showed evidence that she's lost races to cis women, so it's an undeniably stupid thing to do to take the moniker/claim as serious.
 
Kasper said:
I just love how in all these stories it's always absolute nobodies who make up ridiculous claims of being robbed of made up achievements while having been beaten by multiple cis woman in the process as well.
Without checking the story I'd be willing to bet big money that she never was and never will be the fastest in Connecticut even if you only take cis girls but the right wing press loves to jump on these future suburban mom stories that love the attention.
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From her athlete profile at the College of William & Mary…
Prep
Runner-up in the Emerging Elite Long Jump at the 2019 New Balance Outdoor Nationals ... New England Champion in the 100m in 2019 as well ... Named the Connecticut State Track Athlete of the Year following those performances ... As a senior in the winter of 2020, ranked No. 3 in the nation in the long jump ... Named a prep All-American by the NSAF ... Won 11 Connecticut State Championships at Canton ... Three of her state titles were in the open (all-divisions) category in addition to eight in her division ... Won the state open title in the 55m dash as senior in 2020 ... Also won the state open championship outdoors in the 100m in 2019, and indoors in the long jump in 2019 ... Won the divisional 100m in 2018 ... Added the 200m and 4x100m outdoor championships that year as well ... In 2019, won the long jump in her division both indoors and outdoors ... Swept the divisional titles in the 55m, 300m, and the long jump in 2020 ... Earned 16 all-state honors overall ... Member of the Rho Kappa Honor Society ... Won the Outstanding Academic Excellence Award from Canton.
 
Carolina Red said:
From her athlete profile at the College of William & Mary…
Prep
Runner-up in the Emerging Elite Long Jump at the 2019 New Balance Outdoor Nationals ... New England Champion in the 100m in 2019 as well ... Named the Connecticut State Track Athlete of the Year following those performances ... As a senior in the winter of 2020, ranked No. 3 in the nation in the long jump ... Named a prep All-American by the NSAF ... Won 11 Connecticut State Championships at Canton ... Three of her state titles were in the open (all-divisions) category in addition to eight in her division ... Won the state open title in the 55m dash as senior in 2020 ... Also won the state open championship outdoors in the 100m in 2019, and indoors in the long jump in 2019 ... Won the divisional 100m in 2018 ... Added the 200m and 4x100m outdoor championships that year as well ... In 2019, won the long jump in her division both indoors and outdoors ... Swept the divisional titles in the 55m, 300m, and the long jump in 2020 ... Earned 16 all-state honors overall ... Member of the Rho Kappa Honor Society ... Won the Outstanding Academic Excellence Award from Canton.
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In some of those events she beat transgender girls. Crazy.
 
At the end of the day the whole point in seperating mens and womens sports is to make competition fairer. Allowing transgender athletes to compete with women completely defeats seperating genders in the first place.
 
maniak said:
In some of those events she beat transgender girls. Crazy.
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And she would have won another 20 if it wasn't for transgender women. Even more crazy that they're included in the women's category.
 
So sometimes she lost to trans women, and also lost to other cis women

Sometimes she beat trans women, and also beat other cis women

sounds like sports to me. What’s the issue again besides blatant transphobia? Oh right yes trans women should never be allowed to beat a cis woman ever, got it
 
Carolina Red said:
And in some, she didn’t. And neither did a lot of other biological females.

There’s the issue.
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And in some races the transgender athletes lost. And in other races this girl lost to other cis girls. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose, this is school sports, not the world cup.
 
The Corinthian said:
And she would have won another 20 if it wasn't for transgender women. Even more crazy that they're included in the women's category.
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How do you know that? She could've lost to other cis athletes. It seems to be she sometimes wins and sometimes loses, but when she loses to transgender girls... oh boy that's a real problem.
 
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