Surely this only really becomes an issue if the transgender athlete wins a bronze, silver or gold medal at a sport that their biological sex would have given them an advantage? A transgender athlete winning fencing or shooting competition is very different to a transgender athlete winning weightlifting or shotput.
Transgender Athletes
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pretty sure you never responded to my question as to whether a trans woman is a woman. there’s evidence for you right there.
You seem determined to turn this thread into a row again by throwing around labels and accusing people of bigotry without backing it up.
I’m not interested in a row. I was just trying to give @Shamwow some much needed support, and call out some fairly gross inconsistencies in Corinthians’ summary.
As has been said many times now, you’d have a hard time selling that to the biological female athlete that is replaced on the Olympic team roster.
"Evidence"
Works both ways. What makes you think you're right and they are wrong?
I've already said a trans woman is a woman. Some folk would say no. Some of those will be bigoted and fools. Some may have a valid argument.
I am not a fan of Jordan Peterson but I understood why he took a position where he didn't want legal imposition on him to accept something. I'm the same in a way. I treat people as I find them but you're not going to force me to accept something I may have an issue with. It isn't personal to an individual but general principle.
Not really
What if a transgender takes the national place and as a result the female athlete who spent her life training for the event misses out and never gets t compete at the highest level of her sport?
Very good point. I hadn't considered that.
Should also point out, Hubbard already has medaled at international competitions.
“Competing as a woman, Hubbard rose to international prominence by lifting a total of 606 pounds in 2017 to nab the silver medal in the International Weightlifting Federation’s World Weightlifting Championships… (she got injured in 2018)… But she rehabbed, and went on to win two gold medals in the 2019 Pacific Games in Samoa, again putting herself in an international spotlight.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/21/laurel-hubbard-transgender-tokyo-olympics/?outputType=amp
Hubbard also won gold at the 2017 Australian Open and the 2020 World Cup
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Extremely debatable.
Just a friendly suggestion, cool if you instead say "a trans[gender] person". It's like how "a gay" sounds iffy, I hope you understand.
Was thinking about some of the runners.
A ok “Someone who is transgender” would be better or am I still in choppy water there?
No, that would be completely fine as well.
your inability to answer is damning
"Damning"
Supporting terfs now? Way to prove my point.
do you have anything other than calling people terfs and indignation to offer
Your debate skills leave a lot to be desired don't they.
Says the guy using green laughing emojis.
Folks, don't spoil this thread again.
Mate take a step back. It sucks Shammy was banned, and I do side with him on a few issues with that, but you have to see that talking like this is what lead to it. You can be all moral high ground on any subject you like, but the moment you lose the plot and start talking to people like this then it's only going to go one way.
He will be back in about 8 hours.
Jesus wept.
Well then, you do you.
Apparently 21k people have signed a petition in NZ disagreeing with hubbard being allowed to compete in the womans section if the Olympics.
Although it doesn't quite sit right with me, I think the level of testosterone in the body is one measure to determine whether an athlete should compete in men's or women's events. Maybe there are better measures or a range of measures could be used. I do feel sorry for the authorities though because it is almost impossible to find a solution with which everyone will be happy.
Everyone in high end sport should be on steroids and PED's, bulldoze the playing field, half of them probably are anyway. Might as well see someone run 100m in 6 seconds, trans or not, at least that way it comes down to individual effort and not just a genetic lottery.
No, just the one who are born the richest and can afford said drugs. Excellent proposal.
we also now have a situation where cis women with naturally high testostrone (see Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi) are also being banned from competing. it's ridiculous.
I don't really see how trans athletes can be allowed to compete in regular male/female events. It's never going to be fair, and it's impossible for any treatment to make it fair.
It's still the genetic lottery, drugs aren't magic. In addition you're introducing a new variable; the people who respond best to PEDs benefit more.
Plus it’s already down to individual effort. Good genetics alone won’t win medals. Although you could maybe argue that work ethic is heritable. Which is a whole other can of worms.
1) They're both competing in the 200m.
2) They've both fallen foul of the DSD rules which indicates they may be intersex.
From the IAAF:
The DSD regulations only apply to individuals who are:
- legally female (or intersex) and
- who have one of a certain number of specified DSDs, which mean that they have:
- male chromosomes (XY) not female chromosomes (XX)
- testes not ovaries
- circulating testosterone in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L) not the (much lower) female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L); and
- the ability to make use of that testosterone circulating within their bodies (i.e., they are ‘androgen-sensitive’).
This really confused me and I've struggle to find the detail online. Maybe you'll know more about it.
So the athletes who fall foul of DSD regulations like Semenya had to get their testosterone down to 5 but the trans weight lifter only had to get hers down to 10.
Where is the logic there?
There doesn't appear to be much logic.
I'm not even sure where they got the "middle distance" ban from for DSD runners. You can run events under 400m and over a mile in length, but not those in between?
Yeah that baffled me as well. Different requirements for different disciplines seems very odd.
On Laurel Hubbard. I noticed that she 43. Looking at the data I can find the average age of a female Olympic weightlifter is 25. Most of the historical record holders seem to have do their lifts in their early to late 20s. There is one 30 year old lifter at this Olympics doing well. Does anyone know if Laurel winning a silver at the Worlds aged 39 is any kind of record or if there is precedence for someone of this age to be at this level?
Lu Xiaojun just won gold at the weekend in the M81 class at aged 37. There have been a few older lifters, more on the female side, but I wouldn't say it's common to be successful at that age in Weightlifting. Most of the time by the time these elite lifters reach mid 30s they've been doing the sport ~25 years and their bodies just can't handle the loads anymore, Laurel probably benefitted by not training to the same level during periods of her life.