Transgender Athletes

rpitroda said:
Not transgender, but I was reading about Mboma who was banned because she has naturally high levels of testosterone from the 400M. I find that very strange. Banning someone because they have a natural advantage - not quite sure how that works, unless I’m missing something? It’s like banning other athletes who have unique characteristics which inherently make them better at their sport.
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She fell foul of DSD rules which may be an indicator that she is intersex and therefore biologically male. The rules regarding distances do appear somewhat arbitrary though.

It's one thing highlighting a physical characteristic like Bolt's stride-length or Phelps apparently having slightly webbed hands/feet, and another to have the opposite sex genitals/gonads and hormone production as a result. I'm not sure the two are remotely comparable.

I don't know a lot about the Namibians, just as I didn't know a lot about Caster Semenya until after the various appeals and rulings. I do think the IOC needs to do a better job of keeping these things in house, and also start whatever testing procedures they need to carry out far earlier. Athletes shouldn't be given Olympic places if there is doubt over their future eligibility, and if there is doubt about their eligibility, it should be determined in good time before the games have started, and with far more privacy for the athletes involved.

Foxbatt said:
These are artificial rules they make up as they go along.
It's ridiculous and stupid to think only certain distance of running is affected by the naturally produced hormones in the body. Now the two Namibians are running in the 200, and if they win are they going to include the 200 too in it?
It's nothing but racial discrimination. If you have a penis at birth then you are a man. If you have a vagina then you are a woman.
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This is where it isn't that clear cut though. Caster Semenya, for example, was raised as a woman because she was assigned female at birth. She had/has internal testes and XY chromosomes and is biologically male as a result.

The two Namibians have fallen foul of the same rules, and it seems like they may be intersex too, although not confirmed as far as I'm aware.

There is talk of them banning them from competing in the 200m after this Olympics, but nothing is set in stone. However, I agree that the rules appear to be somewhat arbitrary in places, although I'm not sure it amounts to racial discrimination, but simply incompetence on the part of the IOC.

The review regarding transgender athletes is likely to encompass a review of DSD rules too. I think ultimately the IOC have tied themselves in knots by making rulings without science to back it up. They've recently discovered/acknowledged that the upper threshold for normal female testosterone production is higher than previously thought, which may well affect the Namibians one way or another.
 
Alex99 said:
She fell foul of DSD rules which may be an indicator that she is intersex and therefore biologically male. The rules regarding distances do appear somewhat arbitrary though.

It's one thing highlighting a physical characteristic like Bolt's stride-length or Phelps apparently having slightly webbed hands/feet, and another to have the opposite sex genitals/gonads and hormone production as a result. I'm not sure the two are remotely comparable.

I don't know a lot about the Namibians, just as I didn't know a lot about Caster Semenya until after the various appeals and rulings. I do think the IOC needs to do a better job of keeping these things in house, and also start whatever testing procedures they need to carry out far earlier. Athletes shouldn't be given Olympic places if there is doubt over their future eligibility, and if there is doubt about their eligibility, it should be determined in good time before the games have started, and with far more privacy for the athletes involved.



This is where it isn't that clear cut though. Caster Semenya, for example, was raised as a woman because she was assigned female at birth. She had/has internal testes and XY chromosomes and is biologically male as a result.

The two Namibians have fallen foul of the same rules, and it seems like they may be intersex too, although not confirmed as far as I'm aware.

There is talk of them banning them from competing in the 200m after this Olympics, but nothing is set in stone. However, I agree that the rules appear to be somewhat arbitrary in places, although I'm not sure it amounts to racial discrimination, but simply incompetence on the part of the IOC.

The review regarding transgender athletes is likely to encompass a review of DSD rules too. I think ultimately the IOC have tied themselves in knots by making rulings without science to back it up. They've recently discovered/acknowledged that the upper threshold for normal female testosterone production is higher than previously thought, which may well affect the Namibians one way or another.
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Really helpful post, thanks. I think if they are biologically male then I can understand the distinction. But if it’s someone who is biologically female but just has “different” ability to produce testosterone, I don’t think that is a valid reason to ban them. The latter, I do think, is similar to the Bolt / Phelps example. The former I acknowledge, though, is not. I don’t know enough about the Namibians to know which side of the line they fall on, mind.
 
rpitroda said:
Really helpful post, thanks. I think if they are biologically male then I can understand the distinction. But if it’s someone who is biologically female but just has “different” ability to produce testosterone, I don’t think that is a valid reason to ban them. The latter, I do think, is similar to the Bolt / Phelps example. The former I acknowledge, though, is not. I don’t know enough about the Namibians to know which side of the line they fall on, mind.
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I can't say with certainty, but I think they do a chromosome test before making any rulings on the individual suppressing testosterone, which is why it seems an indicator these two are intersex. It might not be the case because the wording isn't too clear.


berbatrick said:
??
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I'm not sure what you're confused about. Caster Semenya, for example, is a cisgender woman as she was assigned female at birth. However, she is biologically male as she is intersex and has XY chromosomes and internal (possibly now descended) testes.
 
stepic said:
ew



by all means tweak the rules if need be. lower the testostrone level if this makes the most sense. but you don't ban trans women outright. thankfully IOC’s medical and science director Dr Richard Budgett agrees - from your article:

“There is some research, but it depends on whether you are coming from the view of inclusion as the first priority or absolute fairness to the nth degree being the priority,” he said. “If you don’t want to take any risks at all that anyone might have an advantage, then you just stop everybody. If you are prepared to extrapolate from the evidence there is, and consider the fact the have been no openly transgender women at the top level until now, I think the threat to women’s sport has probably been overstated.”

“The other important thing to remember is that trans women are women. You have got to include all women if you possibly can.”

well said.
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disagee strongly, I hope it’s a one off
 
Alex99 said:
I'm not sure what you're confused about. Caster Semenya, for example, is a cisgender woman as she was assigned female at birth. However, she is biologically male as she is intersex and has XY chromosomes and internal (possibly now descended) testes.
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Intersex from my understanding usually means not having every phenotype associated with a particular chromosome arrangement, or not having one of the two usual chromosomal configurations. Not sure how you'd call that biological male/female.
Is an individual with XY, female primary sexual characteristics, high androgen sensitivity biologically male or female? What about those with both types of organs? I would think a XX with female genitalia is a biological woman, but what if she has hyperandrogenism? And of course there is X and XXY and all the associated mosaicism.
These are all examples of intersex. I am very mystified about how you would classify them in any one way biologically.
...

Many of the posts in this thread, like the one just above mine (just the thumbnail itself), are disgusting.
 
Alex99 said:
It may well turn out that there is no sweet spot, as such.
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Yeah, that's very likely to be the outcome. For me it all boils down than men and women are not equal in terms of physical performance and there isn't going to be anyway to reverse that for any transgender woman and at that they shouldn't be allowed to compete in the women category. Of course this whole thing is subject to be politicized but the differences in performance between the two sex should be very tangible to everyone.
 
The mention of Phelps made me look him up and I noticed in an article that said they tested him and he produces half of the lactic acid his competitors do when competing. No idea what drives that but no wonder that guy was such a machine. I’ve got a lactic acid build up just typing this message out.
 
Pogue Mahone said:


With all the scrutiny of the kiwi power lifter this slipped below the radar a bit.

Do the same rules re testosterone levels apply in football?
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I don't think Quinn has undergone any hormone therapy. They're non-binary but biologically female.
 
Pogue Mahone said:


With all the scrutiny of the kiwi power lifter this slipped below the radar a bit.

Do the same rules re testosterone levels apply in football?
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Biologically female, and still competes in the women's game. Came out as non-binary in 2020.

But yeah, testosterone regulations do still apply for women's football in th Olympics. Not sure about the various leagues.
 
Ady87 said:
The mention of Phelps made me look him up and I noticed in an article that said they tested him and he produces half of the lactic acid his competitors do when competing. No idea what drives that but no wonder that guy was such a machine. I’ve got a lactic acid build up just typing this message out.
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Think this guy is a more extreme version of that

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/aug/30/dean-karnazes-man-run-forever

it’s a genetic mutation that has a positive effect I guess.
 
The thing I don’t understand, maybe I’ve misunderstood it, is why women who naturally have higher testosterone levels than other women are banned. Surely part of being elite at anything is that you have superior physiology and things that can now with science be measured.

Eg for strength, and other it be testosterone, for speed it’ll be certain muscle fibres, for intelligence they can probably point out and assess the things that make people more intelligent not just basic IQ but in terms of whatever chemicals etc are more present etc

So I do find it perplexing that women, and only women, are punished if they produce more of a natural substance.
 
Alex99 said:
I don't think Quinn has undergone any hormone therapy. They're non-binary but biologically female.
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Martial'sEmergingSmile said:
Biologically female, and still competes in the women's game. Came out as non-binary in 2020.

But yeah, testosterone regulations do still apply for women's football in th Olympics. Not sure about the various leagues.
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Ok, right. That’s confusing. I thought transgender in a sporting context meant not born the gender in which they compete. Guess I didn’t really think it through properly. Obviously this sort of scenario isn’t problematic from a fairness perspective.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Ok, right. That’s confusing. I thought transgender in a sporting context meant not born the gender in which they compete. Guess I didn’t really think it through properly. Obviously this sort of scenario isn’t problematic from a fairness perspective.
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I think non-binary is sometimes not considered being transgender, but instead something separate, which will cause confusion when it is described as transgender.
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
The thing I don’t understand, maybe I’ve misunderstood it, is why women who naturally have higher testosterone levels than other women are banned. Surely part of being elite at anything is that you have superior physiology and things that can now with science be measured.

Eg for strength, and other it be testosterone, for speed it’ll be certain muscle fibres, for intelligence they can probably point out and assess the things that make people more intelligent not just basic IQ but in terms of whatever chemicals etc are more present etc

So I do find it perplexing that women, and only women, are punished if they produce more of a natural substance.
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This has been covered a few times in this thread. In Caster Semenya's case, she's biologically male with XY chromosomes and testes.

Less is known about the two Namibian sprinters, but their situation looks to be similar.
 
Penna said:
Have there been any FTM transgender athletes, who competed as a woman prior to transition?
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Just came across an example of this. Loui Sand (born Louise Sand) has apparently just signed a contract to play in the best male handball division in Sweden after transitioning from female to male. Around two years ago he played in the women's leagues.

Most people in the UK are not that familiar with handball, but it is an extremely physical sport - especially in the men's game. Admittedly this is less important for wingers, which is the position Loui plays. Speed and strength is still important, however, so will be interesting to see how he performs. He is 5'5 which is absolutely tiny in the sport.
 
We have the Olympics, (Summer and Winter), the Paralympics... so why not Transgenderlympics?
 
There's something really off to me about a man transitioning and then beating up women for "sport".
 
Pogue Mahone said:


Following on from Fallon Fox, another transgender professional MMA fighter. Ex US Special Forces soldier. Transitioned aged 28.
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I don't know what to think about this. Well I'm not fighting him so not my problem I guess.
 
VorZakone said:
I wonder if there are MTF trans athletes who've decided to quit sports or not compete with women at all, out of principle or whatever.
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That's an intersting one, although I don't think it would align with the fundamental reasons for transitioning.
 
Pogue Mahone said:


Following on from Fallon Fox, another transgender professional MMA fighter. Ex US Special Forces soldier. Transitioned aged 28.
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Pisses in the face of biological women who have trained and grafted to be the best in their field. Governments, organisations and sporting bodies are just scared to admit it for fear of not appearing 'woke'.

Common sense makes this pretty obviously a terrible state of affairs.

Edit: what I also don't get about this and happy to be educated is this.

Gender as it is now acknowledged as a state of mind, separate to sex. Sporting competition is based on sex not gender. Therefore I struggle to understand why this is even happening. Literally ruins competition for the majority (biological women) for the minority (transgender women).

Edit edit: I am not trying to be inflammatory, apologies if a term I have used isn't deemed correct.
 
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Any female to male athletes that have competed in men’s sport? Genuinely have no idea so just curious and questioning if a biological woman, who is now a man would compete in the MMA against men.
 
The Guardian article on McLaughlin's "journey" is ... something.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/08/alana-mclaughlin-trans-mma-fighter-combate-global

  • Hyper religious family
  • So poor she was hiding food to eat the next day and they had no TV or radio
  • Parents divorced
  • Stepfather removed door and curtains from bedroom
  • Small and preferred hanging out with girls
  • Wasn't allowed to see a doctor and turpentine was used to treat every illness
  • Not allowed to play sports until junior year of high school due to size
  • Sent to hang out at a farm owned by a family friend to "man up" with their sons
  • Raped by one of them for 5 years and not believed by parents
  • Mention of conversion therapy
  • Ultimately joins the army after seemingly severing contact with family
  • PTSD from childhood trauma and service in Afghanistan
  • Secretly buying non-prescribed estrogen online and using for brief periods before stopping, then repeating
  • Seemingly completing surgical transition in Thailand before returning to US
  • Aside from PTSD diagnosis there is no mention of any mental health support
“My whole life I was a runt, I was undersized, I was bullied, I was raped, I was beaten, like I did not have an easy time,” said McLaughlin. “The story of my life has been trying to physically resist people that were larger and stronger and more skilled than me.”
 
Alex99 said:
The Guardian article on McLaughlin's "journey" is ... something.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/08/alana-mclaughlin-trans-mma-fighter-combate-global

  • Hyper religious family
  • So poor she was hiding food to eat the next day and they had no TV or radio
  • Parents divorced
  • Stepfather removed door and curtains from bedroom
  • Small and preferred hanging out with girls
  • Wasn't allowed to see a doctor and turpentine was used to treat every illness
  • Not allowed to play sports until junior year of high school due to size
  • Sent to hang out at a farm owned by a family friend to "man up" with their sons
  • Raped by one of them for 5 years and not believed by parents
  • Mention of conversion therapy
  • Ultimately joins the army after seemingly severing contact with family
  • PTSD from childhood trauma and service in Afghanistan
  • Secretly buying non-prescribed estrogen online and using for brief periods before stopping, then repeating
  • Seemingly completing surgical transition in Thailand before returning to US
  • Aside from PTSD diagnosis there is no mention of any mental health support
“My whole life I was a runt, I was undersized, I was bullied, I was raped, I was beaten, like I did not have an easy time,” said McLaughlin. “The story of my life has been trying to physically resist people that were larger and stronger and more skilled than me.”
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Probably fair to say she wasn’t undersized her “whole life”.

47852187-9985411-image-m-7_1631535171832.jpg


Awful story though. That is one seriously damaged individual.
 
Alex99 said:
“The story of my life has been trying to physically resist people that were larger and stronger and more skilled than me.”
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This bloke needs some mental help, I mean she's now basically doing the same now by beating girls in mma fights. I watched the fight and the other girl was the better fighter with more skill but was ultimately overpowered by brute strength.
 
Alex99 said:
The Guardian article on McLaughlin's "journey" is ... something.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/08/alana-mclaughlin-trans-mma-fighter-combate-global

  • Hyper religious family
  • So poor she was hiding food to eat the next day and they had no TV or radio
  • Parents divorced
  • Stepfather removed door and curtains from bedroom
  • Small and preferred hanging out with girls
  • Wasn't allowed to see a doctor and turpentine was used to treat every illness
  • Not allowed to play sports until junior year of high school due to size
  • Sent to hang out at a farm owned by a family friend to "man up" with their sons
  • Raped by one of them for 5 years and not believed by parents
  • Mention of conversion therapy
  • Ultimately joins the army after seemingly severing contact with family
  • PTSD from childhood trauma and service in Afghanistan
  • Secretly buying non-prescribed estrogen online and using for brief periods before stopping, then repeating
  • Seemingly completing surgical transition in Thailand before returning to US
  • Aside from PTSD diagnosis there is no mention of any mental health support
“My whole life I was a runt, I was undersized, I was bullied, I was raped, I was beaten, like I did not have an easy time,” said McLaughlin. “The story of my life has been trying to physically resist people that were larger and stronger and more skilled than me.”
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That's messed up but probably all too common for a lot of people in that situation.
 
hobbers said:
If it's always the case that she has to find a willing opponent to fight then fine. If a biological woman wants to go up against a transgender athlete in MMA then let them.
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But that argument falls down of the trans women holds a belt and you want to compete for the best honour in your sport fairly.
 
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