You realize that I just told you that I literally won shit, right?
All you’re doing here is showing how little you know about athletics.
Transgender Athletes
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All you’re doing here is showing how little you know about athletics.
But you didn't make it to the top. Did you just not want to?
This last page is somewhat bizarre.
Are you alright?
A bit
I'm just curious that you had no privilege or natural advantage to get to where you go to and it was just hard work. But if that's true then you didn't work hard enough to make it to the top which must have been something you wanted as a self professed competitor. If you didn't work hard enough, then you weren't actually that competitive. It's all very conflicting.
It just kind of discredits the idea that privilege isn't involved at any point.
Well we went off on a little tangent about top level athletes already being quite priveliged, whereas you seem to think that has nothing to do with it and all success comes from hard work.
You're having a bit of a mare here, maybe relax a litte
Do go on
No, we didn’t do that. You did that. I simply told you I’ve won things. I take no ownership in what you did with that info.
You said it was purely down to hard work and mocked the idea that privelige had anything to do with it.
Okay. I still do. So…
I dunno, if you have like, a point or something, can you just make it?
You're still wrong. Or lazy and unfocused compared the top competitors in your sports.
So you have no proof that I said what you've accused me of saying, yet you'll continue to baselessly repeat it anyway? Gotcha.
I did not disingenuously start that line of argument. It's a logical assumption based on you quite literally referring to the sports careers of biological females as "immaterial and inconsequential" and repeatedly refusing to explain why you think it is biological women without gender dysphoria that should be the ones to miss out.
I didn't even know what VIM had posted about you, I just saw that you'd called someone a bigot, which wasn't entirely unexpected given the only reason you seem to even enter this thread was to start painting people as bigots ("oh yeah, I forgot trans men don't exist"). The fact that you've now baselessly called me a transphobe for daring to think things here aren't as black and white as you clearly do just supports that.
Being focused is privilege?
Oh no doubt. Jordan Burroughs 100% has a better work ethic than me. Dude is unreal and I respect everything he’s done in his career and for the sport of wrestling. 10 out of 10, would recommend.
I called him a bigot because he used a bigoted insult against me and you backed him up.
Did you miss the "or"?
I didn't back him up though. I said something like "there we are" when you called someone a bigot because you have repeatedly demonstrated that all you want to do here is call people bigoted. It was evident from the second (consecutive) post you made as you entered the debate.
In my eyes biological women without gender dysphoria as you put it are not missing out as much with trans competitors being included. as the trans people would miss out by not being able to compete as the women they are.
I didn't mean to say that women's careers in any sense are immaterial so that was poor wording, but the actual act of winning is less important than making sure women can take part. And it's a more intangible thing. Most people don't win in the end.
And this is in the context of trans women not actually dominating sport at the moment, so cis women probably aren't missing out on anything anyway.
Whereas you're proposing excluding others entirely from fulfilling their ambitions.
The scales on this one weigh strongly in the other direction for me.
I didn't mean to say that women's careers in any sense are immaterial so that was poor wording, but the actual act of winning is less important than making sure women can take part. And it's a more intangible thing. Most people don't win in the end.
And this is in the context of trans women not actually dominating sport at the moment, so cis women probably aren't missing out on anything anyway.
Whereas you're proposing excluding others entirely from fulfilling their ambitions.
The scales on this one weigh strongly in the other direction for me.
In the context it was backing him up and what he said was vile. It's not my fault you didn't read the post of the person you were backing up and find out that it was actually bigoted.
If he'd said the n word or something I think you'd be a bit more apologetic but I guess angry disabled people are fair game.
You can read into it like that if you want, but that wasn't at all my intention, and the fact you've doubled down to repeatedly, baselessly accuse people of transphobia says all I need to here about where you stand.
As for you post above, you are once again ignoring the finite number of places available in elite sport, and once again ignoring the very principles of fairness that said sport is built on.
You're entitled to believe that trans women should be included in women's categories, just as others are entitled to believe that biological males should be excluded from competing with biological females.
One side of the debate has presented arguments backed up by scientific findings, the other has tied themselves in nots about everyone competing together in one group in the name of inclusivity, but not one group, separate, categorised groups to keep things fair, but a group based on biological sex is somehow not one of them, and then accused people of bigotry/transphobia for not nodding approvingly.
It's not baseless when you've got people like marukomu posting his bollocks about men just putting on a bra and knickers and competing, whoever said being trans is a choice (not you), and multiple people directing ableist insults at me and being backed up for it.
And all the others!
Yeah but he’s the guy my age and in my weight class, so a special shout out to him.
One side of the debate has also compared trans athletes to men putting on a bra and knickers and competing against women and said that its a small price for trans athletes to pay to be excluded from elite sport because they are lucky enough to be trans, whilst the other pointed out that trans athletes haven't actually won much and therefore the concern is currently being overblown.
Presumably they meant choosing to transition is a choice? In the same way someone who is born gay can choose when and how to come out, someone who is born with gender dysphoria can choose to deal with their reality in a number of different ways. Bit of a leap to call someone who holds that opinion transphobic.
This thread has gone to shit
I can't be arsed to go back through the pages now but there's some dodgy stuff from various people along those lines. At the very least it's quite insensitive in my opinion, to me at best it's like saying an important medical treatment is just a choice when it's a necessity for many. I think you're giving too much benefit of the doubt.
Eh, no?
Nailed it.
And? You really aren’t making any sense now and it is painful
I read something recently which had two ‘rules’ to try and make online discourse less toxic. Always calm yourself before writing and never assume ill intent. Seems like a good idea. Especially with sensitive topics like this. Definitely a work in progress for yours truly though!
His point is that having the genetics/health to be an elite athlete involves a certain amount of luck/privilege. Although I’m not sure how that relates to the topic of the thread.
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It's definitely not as simple as saying "but they're not winning everything" to work out the advantages (if any) a trans competitor has.
If a cis athlete has been training since the age of 7 to get to the very top level of their sport and is predicted to get to the Olympics but gets their position taken away I think it is valid to check whether the situation is fair or not. It doesn't matter if that person is going to get a medal or come last out of all the competitors, it is still something that they have worked their entire lives for, is their job and is what they've always being aiming for.
The debate on whether it is fair can only be answered by science and isn't as simple as they didn't win so it's fine. We would need to see stats on whether the trans athlete is competing at a higher level in comparison to the level they were competing at before transition and I haven't seen stats either way on that.
I personally think sport does need to be fair competition though as it underpins why we watch sport. It may not always be fair due to cheating (like drug taking) but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fair.
If a cis athlete has been training since the age of 7 to get to the very top level of their sport and is predicted to get to the Olympics but gets their position taken away I think it is valid to check whether the situation is fair or not. It doesn't matter if that person is going to get a medal or come last out of all the competitors, it is still something that they have worked their entire lives for, is their job and is what they've always being aiming for.
The debate on whether it is fair can only be answered by science and isn't as simple as they didn't win so it's fine. We would need to see stats on whether the trans athlete is competing at a higher level in comparison to the level they were competing at before transition and I haven't seen stats either way on that.
I personally think sport does need to be fair competition though as it underpins why we watch sport. It may not always be fair due to cheating (like drug taking) but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fair.
Amazing how this thread was 99% civilised debate on the topic, until @Shamwow comes in, loses his shit looking for an argument and starts screaming 'transphobe' and 'bigot' at everyone, now we have other idiots coming in and actually making transphobic comments, and the whole thread has fallen to shit.
It had been really good to see so much thoughtful debate, lets get it back on track.
Quality control
@Shamwow FYI All I did was call you a wanker (due to how you’ve been acting) in a not so subtle way. Since you’ve mentioned me about 42 times since I have to wonder how sincere your ‘sport and everything is ultimately meaningless anyway’ attitude is and what authority you have to suggest all athletes need to learn the lesson of coming 2nd when you are clearly such a sensitive little soul yourself who is struggling to cope with a feeble insult online. Maybe you are the one who needs to learn a few lessons my little petal.
For context, this discussion was extremely civilised and going at a steady pace and took from June 2nd to about half 7 yesterday evening to reach the 10th page.
Shamwow made his first post at about 9pm (the 4th post on the 10th page), and the thread ended up reaching page 18, almost doubling in length, in less than 12 hours.
He posted at quarter to midnight indicating he was leaving the discussion because he didn't want to argue with "transphobes and ableists" but then made a further 64 posts between then and about 8 o clock this morning.
He shot from having no posts in the thread, to having 111 in less than 12 hours, having the most in the thread, having 32 more than the person with the second highest number, and 68 more than the third highest, both of which were posters actively engaged with him, and both of which have both been posting pretty much since the thread was started.
And yet, he thinks it is everyone else that has derailed/ruined the discussion, and seems utterly perplexed that people have suggested that he perhaps needs to take a step back and calm himself down.
This was an interesting thread for most of its time.
I have to say though, @Shamwow & @stepic - your posts and calling everyone with a different opinion a bigot is a really shitty and disingenuous way to make your point. Most of the posts in this thread have been well informed, reasonable and haven't stooped to the level of petty and personal insults (@Alex99 really enjoyed reading some of what you've written).
@Shamwow in particular, I think you've just ruined and derailed what was an enjoyable and interesting discussion. Most of your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Most Olympic level athletes train their bollocks off all year round to participate in an Olympics. The rationale that they're privileged (what??), or that they should just be happy taking part (again, what?) is an insult to their hard work, sacrifices, and dedication to the sport. It's clear you don't know a great deal about elite level sports, so let me put it as plainly as I can. These Olympic level athletes focus a significant amount of their time on improving via marginal gains. What can they do that ekes out an extra 1 or 1.5% that their competitor won't. Because by in large, the competitors are doing the 99% same things that they are. They're eating the same, training the same, physically and physiologically the same. These athletes are pretty much neck and neck to start with, so it's all about finding that 1% difference which leads to a gold medal.
You can imagine that a transwoman competing (that was formerly a man) will already have a marked and undeniable advantage in most categories compared to someone born a woman. Most likely, that marginal gain will be insurmountable for a biological woman. No woman is able to make up for 20 or 30+ years of being a biological male (ie before the male transitions). Is that fair?
I have to say though, @Shamwow & @stepic - your posts and calling everyone with a different opinion a bigot is a really shitty and disingenuous way to make your point. Most of the posts in this thread have been well informed, reasonable and haven't stooped to the level of petty and personal insults (@Alex99 really enjoyed reading some of what you've written).
@Shamwow in particular, I think you've just ruined and derailed what was an enjoyable and interesting discussion. Most of your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Most Olympic level athletes train their bollocks off all year round to participate in an Olympics. The rationale that they're privileged (what??), or that they should just be happy taking part (again, what?) is an insult to their hard work, sacrifices, and dedication to the sport. It's clear you don't know a great deal about elite level sports, so let me put it as plainly as I can. These Olympic level athletes focus a significant amount of their time on improving via marginal gains. What can they do that ekes out an extra 1 or 1.5% that their competitor won't. Because by in large, the competitors are doing the 99% same things that they are. They're eating the same, training the same, physically and physiologically the same. These athletes are pretty much neck and neck to start with, so it's all about finding that 1% difference which leads to a gold medal.
You can imagine that a transwoman competing (that was formerly a man) will already have a marked and undeniable advantage in most categories compared to someone born a woman. Most likely, that marginal gain will be insurmountable for a biological woman. No woman is able to make up for 20 or 30+ years of being a biological male (ie before the male transitions). Is that fair?