Toni Kroos

berbatrick said:
I'm a fan but "There's no other midfielder in the world today who could match the total attributes both in defense and offense. Even compared on a special area alone he will probably be on the very top." is just laughably untrue.

Modric is arguably more varied in attack, Ozil more creative, Iniesta probably better too. The list for defence is far too long.
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Ozil can't defend at all - I think he meant midfielders with a combination of defensive and offensive prowess. I don't think Kroos is so good when the team doesn't have the ball (he is slow and not mobile enough), but he's definitely one of the more well-rounded CMs. He reads the game well enough to play deep & defend, but also has the finesse to play further forward and score goals/make assists.

I would really like for Kroos to come here, whether it happens or not is another issue. Very good on the ball and will fill the hole Carrick leaves when he eventually retires. Modric is definitely better, though.
 
Cantona'sCollar said:
Ozil can't defend at all - I think he meant midfielders with a combination of defensive and offensive prowess. I don't think Kroos is so good when the team doesn't have the ball (he is slow and not mobile enough), but he's definitely one of the more well-rounded CMs. He reads the game well enough to play deep & defend, but also has the finesse to play further forward and score goals/make assists.

I would really like for Kroos to come here, whether it happens or not is another issue. Very good on the ball and will fill the hole Carrick leaves when he eventually retires. Modric is definitely better, though.
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I agree with all of this and would love him here...as I said I'm a fan. I (mis?)read that post as suggesting that he's the best both in attack and defence. He'd be great as a defensive 10 in a 4231 or alongside Herrera and Schniederlin in a 433 (which IMO would easily be the best midfield in the PL).
 
I watch him and he just isn't fit to lace Scholes' boots.
 
berbatrick said:
I agree with all of this and would love him here...as I said I'm a fan. I (mis?)read that post as suggesting that he's the best both in attack and defence. He'd be great as a defensive 10 in a 4231 or alongside Herrera and Schniederlin in a 433 (which IMO would easily be the best midfield in the PL).
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Yeah I figured, I also wasn't sure because he isn't the best all-rounder around anyway (Modric & Gundogan, for me, are more versatile/flexible footballers). As you said, a defensive 10, or the most offensive of a midfield three with the point facing upwards, like a deeper Pjanic, or where Pirlo (though he is obviously better) sometimes played. Others would have to do the running for him, while he keeps the tempo of the game. Herrera and Schneiderlin would be a great fit for him, agreed.
 
I watched PSG today and I think if Verrati leaves he would fit them beautifully as his replacement. They play a slower style that would suit him and he could help make up for the inevitable downgrade in passing when Thiago Motta is replaced as the DM.
 
Offside said:
I watch him and he just isn't fit to lace Scholes' boots.
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He isn't but you are comparing him to Paul Scholes.

What consistently surprises me is how inferior he is to Modric. I mean, it's not even close. Modric is consistently twice the player Kroos is.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
What consistently surprises me is how inferior he is to Modric. I mean, it's not even close. Modric is consistently twice the player Kroos is.
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Modric was signifcantly worse yesterday in pretty much every imaginable criteria. Less workrate, awful defensive positioning, his passing wasn't great either. Kroos was by far the best of Real's CMs yesterday and his substitution hurt Real's late push for a goal while Isco replacing Modric helped Real a lot.
 
Balu said:
Modric was signifcantly worse yesterday in pretty much every imaginable criteria. Less workrate, awful defensive positioning, his passing wasn't great either. Kroos was by far the best of Real's CMs yesterday and his substitution hurt Real's late push for a goal while Isco replacing Modric helped Real a lot.
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It's one game. Having seen Real over the past two years, Modric is the guy that runs the show for them with Kroos firmly being in his shadow. In fact. Modric is second only to Ronaldo in terms of importance in that side. Given his reputation, I expected more from Kroos.
 
Cantona'sCollar said:
Yeah I figured, I also wasn't sure because he isn't the best all-rounder around anyway (Modric & Gundogan, for me, are more versatile/flexible footballers). As you said, a defensive 10, or the most offensive of a midfield three with the point facing upwards, like a deeper Pjanic, or where Pirlo (though he is obviously better) sometimes played. Others would have to do the running for him, while he keeps the tempo of the game. Herrera and Schneiderlin would be a great fit for him, agreed.
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If he is the most offensive of a midfield three you need a special set of very mobile attackers - not two wingers and a striker like Benzema.

There was a small time period in 11/12 when Schweinsteiger was injured and Heynckes played Müller as hanging striker and Gustavo as sweeper behind him. That was when we had 20 goals in one week in three matches - the Basel match included.

I thought that combination was pretty good as he could do what he is best in whereas Gustavo overtook the defensive work and Müller brought enough dynamic, a second threat in the box and additional workrate. That Ribery adds a lot creativity made it even better.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
It's one game. Having seen Real over the past two years, Modric is the guy that runs the show for them with Kroos firmly being in his shadow. In fact. Modric is second only to Ronaldo in terms of importance in that side. Given his reputation, I expected more from Kroos.
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Well, Modric gets to play in his best position while Kroos was shamefully misused to play as the holding midfielder, so that's not really surprising. The gap between the two is nowhere near as big as you made it sound though. For all the criticism Kroos gets for his defensive effort, Modric doesn't offer more than him either. He just gets a free pass for some weird reason whenever Real's midfield isn't up for the job.

I rate Modric's peak level higher as well, but since he returned from his injury last season, he has rarely been impressive and certainly not done a consistently brilliant job. Him and Kroos simply don't complement each other and it's a big problem for Real. And the times I've seen them both together on the pitch with Casemiro the holding midfielder, Modric didn't really stand out as superior.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
He isn't but you are comparing him to Paul Scholes.

What consistently surprises me is how inferior he is to Modric. I mean, it's not even close. Modric is consistently twice the player Kroos is.
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My Impression is the complete opposite. Whenever I have watched Modric over the last 2 or 3 years he was quite disappointing. Kroos has been the better Player in most games.
 
5th in the PL and there is actually a debate whether Toni Kroos would be a good addition to the squad. Sometimes think a few decades in the wilderness is needed to bring fans down to reality. Jesus!
 
RedorDead21 said:
5th in the PL and there is actually a debate whether Toni Kroos would be a good addition to the squad. Sometimes think a few decades in the wilderness is needed to bring fans down to reality. Jesus!
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Where we are in the league has zero to do with whether he is suited to the league or whether we can carry a defensive passenger with limited mobility.
 
-----------------Schneiderlin
-----------Kroos---------------Renato Sanches

Give Fosu-Mensah some time in CM too.

Anyone?
 
Silverman said:
-----------------Schneiderlin
-----------Kroos---------------Renato Sanches

Give Fosu-Mensah some time in CM too.

Anyone?
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Not with Schneiderlin there, he's a box to box worker not a #6 IMO, his best games for us have come when he's pushed on and pressed the ball, not sitting as the deepest CM.
 
Silverman said:
-----------------Schneiderlin
-----------Kroos---------------Renato Sanches

Give Fosu-Mensah some time in CM too.

Anyone?
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Signing two midfielders in one window as possible Europa League team would be quite satisfying to be honest.

Mensah, Schweini, Herrera and eventually Blind would be a very decent depth also against injury plagues that at some point will happen.
 
Silverman said:
-----------------Schneiderlin
-----------Kroos---------------Renato Sanches

Give Fosu-Mensah some time in CM too.

Anyone?
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--------------BFS--------------
Kroos---------------Schneiderlin
In difficult matches

----------Kroos--------
Herrera----------Schneiderlin
In matches we're expected to dominate
 
Balu said:
Well, Modric gets to play in his best position while Kroos was shamefully misused to play as the holding midfielder, so that's not really surprising. The gap between the two is nowhere near as big as you made it sound though. For all the criticism Kroos gets for his defensive effort, Modric doesn't offer more than him either. He just gets a free pass for some weird reason whenever Real's midfield isn't up for the job.

I rate Modric's peak level higher as well, but since he returned from his injury last season, he has rarely been impressive and certainly not done a consistently brilliant job. Him and Kroos simply don't complement each other and it's a big problem for Real. And the times I've seen them both together on the pitch with Casemiro the holding midfielder, Modric didn't really stand out as superior.
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It's because he's the heartbeat of their midfield most of the time.

Agree to diagree on Kroos, I suppose. Modric comes across as much more authoritative, pro-active and influential to me.
 
Balu said:
Well, Modric gets to play in his best position while Kroos was shamefully misused to play as the holding midfielder, so that's not really surprising. The gap between the two is nowhere near as big as you made it sound though. For all the criticism Kroos gets for his defensive effort, Modric doesn't offer more than him either. He just gets a free pass for some weird reason whenever Real's midfield isn't up for the job.

I rate Modric's peak level higher as well, but since he returned from his injury last season, he has rarely been impressive and certainly not done a consistently brilliant job. Him and Kroos simply don't complement each other and it's a big problem for Real. And the times I've seen them both together on the pitch with Casemiro the holding midfielder, Modric didn't really stand out as superior.
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Agreed. I don't think Kroos is a special midfielder personally, but there's been very little between him and Modric this season. Stats only scratch the surface but a quick glance at WhoScored says they've played an almost identical amount of minutes, have an almost identical average rating, Kroos has made more tackles while Modric has made more interceptions, Modric has made marginally more "key passes" but Kroos has double the assists, and Kroos makes more passes, more long passes and has a better success rate.

Modric has hit a higher peak but he only did so when he was 29/30, whereas Kroos has only just turned 26. At that age Modric was no more influential or impressive for Madrid than Kroos now is.
 
Blackwidow said:
If he is the most offensive of a midfield three you need a special set of very mobile attackers - not two wingers and a striker like Benzema.

There was a small time period in 11/12 when Schweinsteiger was injured and Heynckes played Müller as hanging striker and Gustavo as sweeper behind him. That was when we had 20 goals in one week in three matches - the Basel match included.

I thought that combination was pretty good as he could do what he is best in whereas Gustavo overtook the defensive work and Müller brought enough dynamic, a second threat in the box and additional workrate. That Ribery adds a lot creativity made it even better.
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True, he could be useful there for Germany too, should they change system.

If Schneiderlin plays to his potential (or at least regain his Southampton form), he could be the Gustavo in our system. Add someone like Herrera and I think it could work very well - all three players bringing different things to the team, offensively and defensively. The issue is balance - our other midfielders would have to be able to do the running for him, but I think we can make it work. As long as he isn't played in a defined midfield two, he is normally useful.
 
People want a more dynamic and faster central midfield, and yet we are still discussing Kroos, one of the few players both Schweinsteiger and Carrick would still destroy in a foot race.

I think he's too slow for the top teams in the PL, personally, and I don't see how his other attributes can make up for that. But then again, I've never been a huge fan. I've always considered Modric the superior player for many reasons.
 
Rossa said:
People want a more dynamic and faster central midfield, and yet we are still discussing Kroos, one of the few players both Schweinsteiger and Carrick would still destroy in a foot race.

I think he's too slow for the top teams in the PL, personally, and I don't see how his other attributes can make up for that. But then again, I've never been a huge fan. I've always considered Modric the superior player for many reasons.
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Kroos is better than all our midfielders so as much as he's slow he's much better and a no brainer if we have the right price for him.
 
Lawman said:
Kroos is better than all our midfielders so as much as he's slow he's much better and a no brainer if we have the right price for him.
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At some point we just have to trust the midfield we have and play to their strengths, or alternatively we need to find a new way to establish a midfield. Replacing Schweinsteiger with a similar player in terms of physical attributes and overall playing style of Carrick may not go well considering our other alternatives. What we need is not Kroos. We need a dynamic box to box midfielder with a little bit of physicality to him. Schweinsteiger has grit and is tough, but he often arrives a little late to the fight.
 
Rossa said:
At some point we just have to trust the midfield we have and play to their strengths, or alternatively we need to find a new way to establish a midfield. Replacing Schweinsteiger with a similar player in terms of physical attributes and overall playing style of Carrick may not go well considering our other alternatives. What we need is not Kroos. We need a dynamic box to box midfielder with a little bit of physicality to him. Schweinsteiger has grit and is tough, but he often arrives a little late to the fight.
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A Carrick of 4-6 years ago would be a great signing and we are getting that with Kroos. A genuine world class passer we don't have that other than Carrick and Bastian that are both on the downward slope and won't play 20+ games a season. Yes I'd love mobile players. (Mane and Moura would be my realistic signings for wide berths) but I wouldn't just pass up on real quality due to lack of pace. I'd take Hummels (slow) and Kroos (slow) in a heart beat. Right now we have Mata and Blind and these two Germans are a serious upgrade on both.
 
I want a midfielder who is Quick, and who is an expert at pressing opponents, making them lose the ball. The closest we have had to that type of midfielder is Hargreaves - the few matches he played. That type of midfielder is almost required to play with the kind of attacking players we have (who are poor at tracking back). Toni Kroos is not that kind of player - Kante is!
 
Kroos isn't slow per se, he has no agility and an awkward stride but he isn't that slow.
 
Lawman said:
A Carrick of 4-6 years ago would be a great signing and we are getting that with Kroos. A genuine world class passer we don't have that other than Carrick and Bastian that are both on the downward slope and won't play 20+ games a season. Yes I'd love mobile players. (Mane and Moura would be my realistic signings for wide berths) but I wouldn't just pass up on real quality due to lack of pace. I'd take Hummels (slow) and Kroos (slow) in a heart beat. Right now we have Mata and Blind and these two Germans are a serious upgrade on both.
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I can see where you are getting at, but there seem to be a consensus amongst many to go for the established big names because they are just that. Kroos is deemed surplus at Real Madrid, as is James. Still, however, many United supporters want both, even though they represent exactly the negative aspects of our team - a lack of pace and athleticism and the ability to go past a man. James may be an upgrade on Mata, but that is a maybe, and still not the player our squad require.

Kroos is an upgrade on the current Carrick, but I doubt we will be selling Schweinsteiger as of yet, and he is guaranteed to get a lot of game time. Schneiderlin is good, but he can't go past players. Herrera can, but he isn't trusted much. That leaves you with a midfield two of Schneiderlin/Schweinsteiger and Kroos - very slow, and easy to overrun.
 
Rossa said:
I can see where you are getting at, but there seem to be a consensus amongst many to go for the established big names because they are just that. Kroos is deemed surplus at Real Madrid, as is James. Still, however, many United supporters want both, even though they represent exactly the negative aspects of our team - a lack of pace and athleticism and the ability to go past a man. James may be an upgrade on Mata, but that is a maybe, and still not the player our squad require.

Kroos is an upgrade on the current Carrick, but I doubt we will be selling Schweinsteiger as of yet, and he is guaranteed to get a lot of game time. Schneiderlin is good, but he can't go past players. Herrera can, but he isn't trusted much. That leaves you with a midfield two of Schneiderlin/Schweinsteiger and Kroos - very slow, and easy to overrun.
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I don't think Kroos is deemed surplus, he is unhappy with the role he is given. But I understand your point in terms of characteristics, personally I would go after Kroos and Lassana Diarra, I know people will laugh at the mention of Diarra.
 
How do you even start comparing Kroos to Modric. Kroos is a decent midfielder, but to compare him to Modric is ridiculous. It's just like when people compare Rakitic to Modric. How, just how do people get there?
 
Rossa said:
I can see where you are getting at, but there seem to be a consensus amongst many to go for the established big names because they are just that. Kroos is deemed surplus at Real Madrid, as is James. Still, however, many United supporters want both, even though they represent exactly the negative aspects of our team - a lack of pace and athleticism and the ability to go past a man. James may be an upgrade on Mata, but that is a maybe, and still not the player our squad require.

Kroos is an upgrade on the current Carrick, but I doubt we will be selling Schweinsteiger as of yet, and he is guaranteed to get a lot of game time. Schneiderlin is good, but he can't go past players. Herrera can, but he isn't trusted much. That leaves you with a midfield two of Schneiderlin/Schweinsteiger and Kroos - very slow, and easy to overrun.
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I think we could solve that problem by pairing him with someone like Schneiderlin who would provide the steel needed. Kroos' passing combined with the pace we have from the likes of Martial, Rashford, Depay and another signing could be deadly.
 
gaucho_10 said:
How do you even start comparing Kroos to Modric. Kroos is a decent midfielder, but to compare him to Modric is ridiculous. It's just like when people compare Rakitic to Modric. How, just how do people get there?
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It's really easy considering Kroos' already mighty impressive body of work including being probably the best CM at a World Cup at an age when Modric hadn't even moved to an elite club yet and then would struggle to establish himself as a elite CM in his first season in Madrid.

Out of interest, do you really think that Modric is having a great season so far? Completely ignoring a comparison to Kroos, just Modric himself. I doubt anyone denies his obvious brilliant form in 13/14 and the first half of 14/15, when he probably was the best CM in the world. But do you really think he has consistently played at an elite level since?
 
itso 7 said:
I think we could solve that problem by pairing him with someone like Schneiderlin who would provide the steel needed. Kroos' passing combined with the pace we have from the likes of Martial, Rashford, Depay and another signing could be deadly.
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Having a midfielder who can go past opponents through the middle like Yaya Toure, Modric or Gundogan really upsets the balance of the opposing team as well as suddenly having one more man in attack. That was the brilliance of putting Giggs in central midfield; even at the age of 40 he would dribble past players because he had the technique and even then that extra burst of acceleration. Having Schneiderlin and Kroos, there will be no such player to create space other than with passing, and sometimes passing alone just isn't enough. Also, having a couple of quick feet in the middle on the counter, both ways, is worth quite a lot - Ramires made a career of it.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't think Kroos is deemed surplus, he is unhappy with the role he is given. But I understand your point in terms of characteristics, personally I would go after Kroos and Lassana Diarra, I know people will laugh at the mention of Diarra.
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I actually think our current midfield is fine as it is. I would much rather we spend money on a new centre back and one or two wingers with pace and trickery.
 
Rossa said:
I actually think our current midfield is fine as it is. I would much rather we spend money on a new centre back and one or two wingers with pace and trickery.
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That's truely mind-boggling to be honest. You don't have a single midfielder who's even remotely close to the elite level (unless Schweinsteiger or Carrick find the fountain of youth over the summer and take an extended bath in it). The arguments against Kroos are even more confusing once you consider he'd not only be United's by far best midfielder but also the youngest one.
 
Rossa said:
Having a midfielder who can go past opponents through the middle like Yaya Toure, Modric or Gundogan really upsets the balance of the opposing team as well as suddenly having one more man in attack. That was the brilliance of putting Giggs in central midfield; even at the age of 40 he would dribble past players because he had the technique and even then that extra burst of acceleration. Having Schneiderlin and Kroos, there will be no such player to create space other than with passing, and sometimes passing alone just isn't enough. Also, having a couple of quick feet in the middle on the counter, both ways, is worth quite a lot - Ramires made a career of it.
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It's a good weapon to have but not as essential as having a player capable of controlling the tempo of the game whilst being able to carve up a defence with one pass. Kroos provides that and we can utilize TFM who has the attributes you mention alongside him, some think TFM is a long way from being a starter but I'm of the opposite opinion because his skill set makes him a perfect partner for someone like Kroos or Scholes.
 
Rossa said:
I actually think our current midfield is fine as it is. I would much rather we spend money on a new centre back and one or two wingers with pace and trickery.
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That's just indefensible, our midfield isn't fine at all, it's the most worrying part of our team.
 
Rossa said:
I can see where you are getting at, but there seem to be a consensus amongst many to go for the established big names because they are just that. Kroos is deemed surplus at Real Madrid, as is James. Still, however, many United supporters want both, even though they represent exactly the negative aspects of our team - a lack of pace and athleticism and the ability to go past a man. James may be an upgrade on Mata, but that is a maybe, and still not the player our squad require.

Kroos is an upgrade on the current Carrick, but I doubt we will be selling Schweinsteiger as of yet, and he is guaranteed to get a lot of game time. Schneiderlin is good, but he can't go past players. Herrera can, but he isn't trusted much. That leaves you with a midfield two of Schneiderlin/Schweinsteiger and Kroos - very slow, and easy to overrun.
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Don't think being a centre mid needs you to go past players. Unless you're a certain type of midfielder like Gazza. Kroos has wonderful passing ability and Morgan is primarily a tackler and sound passer.
 
JPRouve said:
That's just indefensible, our midfield isn't fine at all, it's the most worrying part of our team.
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You're probably right.

Carrick is too old
Schweinsteigers legs have gone
Fellaini is awful
Herrera is inconsistent and probably not good enough to start regularly for a team who has title aspirations
Schneiderlin is ok but not amazing

Is that it? Have i missed anyone? Three of those players should be leaving this summer, leaving us with our best two midfielders, but they're not perfect and we could do with genuine options in the middle.

For me we need two CMs as a priority. Not a clue who. Maybe that sanchez chap if hes all that and someone a bit more experienced.

A CB and a winger/ striker and we're set i think.
 
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