They tried playing that at Madrid last season and it didnt pan out well. They played one of Isco/James and then Kroos and Modric behind the #10. Also do Real have the same players and play the same system as Germany?
Toni Kroos
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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After last season, Zidane will never play Kroos as his deepest midfielder. I'm sure of it.
IMO, Real will be looking for an upgrade on Casemiro and not a replacement for Kroos.
You seriously didn't watch the game? Pogba doesn't not input the same level of defensive workrate as Khedira. If anything Pogba can be as lazy as Yaya Toure (easy to tell France vs Romania). You know why there was Vidal and now the same Khedira in Juventus set up despite having your box to box Pogba? They have Hernandes and Marchisio to rely on defensive work too.
Real Madrid midfield misses nothing in term of balance. Workrate and intelligent positioning can only accounts for that much. See Busquet vs Italy.
Watched both Barcelona vs Real Madrid La Liga games this season again, and note about the space between Madrid defense and midfield where Messi, Neymar, Iniesta... love to drift to. How different Benitez' Madrid vs Zidane's Madrid did in this area.
Real had their historic winning streak (20 wins in a row in all competitions) with that exact setup in 2014/15.
They also beat Barcelona 3-1 during that streak, when they played 4-2-2-2 with Kroos & Modric as a double pivot and Isco/James as AM/winger-hybrids. Here's a match report that is in accordance with my memory:
http://outsideoftheboot.com/2014/10...-el-clasico-won-by-marcelo-iscos-partnership/
It all turned to shite that season only when Modric was injured (Benzema too, later on) and Kroos was overworked and tired because of the absence of any kind of rotation under Ancelotti. Before that it worked pretty well - and Kroos has improved defensively since then and they didn't have Pogba, who has a better defensive presence than James or Isco. (I disagree with @ti vu on that issue.)
As I said, it has worked before, it can work in the future. It's a matter of tactical setup, teamwork and fine tuning. See the examples above.
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Winning streak 
.
How many official matches Suarez had played prior that El Classico? How many assist and goal had Iniesta registered within 1 year of this same period?
http://metro.co.uk/2015/03/26/this-...n-barcelona-superstar-andres-iniesta-5121863/
See how well that Barcelona did in that period:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ormance-highlights-luis-enriques-shortcomings
Once Barcelona clicked, you can excuse with injury all you want, but it clearly showed how the area were exposed until Zidane saved the day.
Agree to disagree then.
.How many official matches Suarez had played prior that El Classico? How many assist and goal had Iniesta registered within 1 year of this same period?
http://metro.co.uk/2015/03/26/this-...n-barcelona-superstar-andres-iniesta-5121863/
See how well that Barcelona did in that period:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ormance-highlights-luis-enriques-shortcomings
Once Barcelona clicked, you can excuse with injury all you want, but it clearly showed how the area were exposed until Zidane saved the day.
Agree to disagree then.
Well, yes. People said it can't work at all and I feel a winning streak of 20 games in a row (with a defensively weaker setup than what I suggested for next season) is kind of an argument in my favour.Winning streak
But how often do Real play opponents that are a real match for them? A handful of games per season, just like Germany. They can always revert to a more defensive approach for these games - just as Löw did with Germany vs. Italy. And Ancelotti vs. Bayern in 2014 and Zidane vs. Barca this April.
The other side of that story is that Germany played 4 games mostly with Kroos - Khedira - Özil in midfield (Kroos as a playmaking DM), which should be a completely impossible setup according to most people in here. Yet they conceded exactly 0 goals in these 4 games.
The toughest opponents in that winning streak were: Barcelona (explained above), Liverpool Athletic Bilbao, Villareal Malaga. Feel free to correct. Before the winning streak. They lost Spanish Super Cup to Atletico, won European Super cup vs Sevilla then lost 2 in their first 3 games in La Liga (Atletico was the defeat before this winning streak). Who ended the winning streak? Valencia a top 4 team (in a normal season) who didn't lose form like Barcelona at times. Tough times for Real Madrid started since.
The winning streak consisted of all their competitions not just La Liga. Look what they had in their group and the domestic Cup. The team is strong enough to flat track bully, but not that good in balance vs a real challenge. In La Liga 4-6 points are a huge gap during Pep time.
Well yes, it's completely okay to put things in perspective. But people here said it clearly couldn't work at all and that's what I responded to. Both with the Madrid and the Germany example.
Let's be honest it's Real Madrid. The expectation is playing the big stars always. Make incompatible players somehow work. With your proposed midfield at hand, do you think Perez and their fans would sit well if Zidane drops a big star for the balance in big games?
That does not take into account the result of that game yet. If Zidane wins with the balance, it's Okay result wise, but Perez surely pressured Zidane (remember Bale case). If not, then all hell is on Zidane for not picking the star team (despite anyone with football insight sees that Zidane did the right thing).
So with Pogba in, they would like to ship one of Kroos and Modric out for the sake of balance (in the whole season) plus Zidane's peace of mind. They already have perfect balance with their current midfield.
Mourinho's time at Real Madrid was not sackably worthy at most clubs, even the worst season of that 3 year tenure. Not with us definitely.
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I think it depends on how well the A formation works. If there are problems with that setup, Zidane has the guts & the standing to bench a star player - he "only" must deliver the result. (Coaching Real Madrid is a very hard job.)
He showed that courage when he benched James and Isco for Casemiro and made Lucas Vázquez an important squad player (also ahead of James and Isco in the end). And he survived that, because he delivered the results. He has a lot of backing from Pérez, although that can change when things go south for a prolonged time.
If the setup works as well as I expect it to, there will be no need to change it anyway.
Look, there were more than 10 posts directed at me almost at once and I'm typing these responses while simultaneously trying to watch Portugal vs Wales. I appreciate your input, because you give actual arguments. But I don't want to write an essay right now, which seems to be necessary to put everything in perspective.
Let me just give a short hint why I think this setup can work: It has something to do with pressing & smart possession play and I think that midfield is a great one for that - therefore balanced under the right circumstances. But let's leave that for later.
I see what you're hinting at. Basically that midfield may work in a style similar to Pep's style. Problem is Real Madrid 's front. Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema are better with space than in narrow system. Real Madrid loosens the pressing, not because they can't but tactically need to. Any teams who is good at soaking the pressure will definitely welcome Real Madrid high pressing and possession since they definitely leave gap for counter attacking. Team actually did this later in 2014-2015 season against Real Madrid and people was talking about how useless/ technical ineffective Bale was in narrow space. How Isco and James were better to provide for Ronaldo...
Yep, that's the main counter argument. There has to be a good working compromise similar to that Di María hybrid-LCM/LW balance role Ancelotti worked out. But as I said, let's discuss this later.
I cannot see Kroos leaving Madrid, there's a small chance if they sign Pogba. But I think he would play like this:
Pogba/Isco - Modric/Kroos
Kroos/CasemiroThey would rotate depending on the game, injuries, bad form, resting players, etc.
Pogba/Isco - Modric/Kroos
Kroos/Casemiro
Kroos as the deepest midfielder just isn't going to happen I don't think, it wouldn't work, and it's what throws all these predictions out of whack.
Where he isn't the most defensive midfielder. At least not the one doing the leg work, which usually is done by Khedira or Schweinsteiger. Kroos isn't strong defensively like he has proven time and time again last season for Real. Casemiro's introduction to the team finally made them more stable in that regard.
He plays the deepest position ("plays as a DM"). It is exactly my point that this does not necessarily mean he must have the most defensive workload. There is a difference between position (number 6) and role (Makelélé vs. Pirlo for example).
And the notion that Kroos is completely inactive defensively and constantly lets other people do all the running while standing around is more myth than reality in my opinion. He is not the same player as 2013 anymore and he covers a lot of ground for Real, although seemingly less for Germany.
Also, there is no such thing as absolute individual defensive strength regardless of circumstances and tactical environment. Kroos can play a good part as a deep lying playmaker in the right setup.
I retracted to a few lines per post for tonight, but I guess there will be enough opportunity to discuss these points in more detail sometime later.
That Classico was one off game. Real tried with Kroos and Modric and more attacking minded player(Isco/James) and it didn't work. That's the reason why Casemiro was in the team especially in the CL campaign rather than Modric and Kroos partnership and without a DM.
Also they had 6-7 games inside that winning streak without Modric and also Kroos from memory didn't play against Ludogoretz in the CL (I know as I was at the game and it was Illa that was used in that game).
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Kills City's chances of signing Kroos if we get Pogba.
And hopefully Bonucci