He's limited but everything he did yesterday was purely down to the madness of Erik Ten Hag. His positioning when we had the ball was so baffling that it could not possibly have been anything other than manager instruction.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
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In fairness, if ETH made him take on Casemiro's build up role it would be so unfair I would have flown in from South America and smashed his face many times over.
Instead, he went for the safer McTominay tribute, "could have maybe pulled one back here with Scott".
I'm going against the grain here: I thought he did ok in a tough game and I look forward to seeing more of him
Some few stray passes aside, I thought that was a very decent showing for the lad. Definitely would like to see coming on as a sub in PL games and getting starts elsewhere. Promising.
I kind of feel like you have to have baller-level ability to play with socks that low, and i just haven't seen enough from him to justify yet.
Why not just play a proper double pivot with Bruno in the hole?
Tom Cleverley level player at best, a solid lower level premiership player, not good enough for a top 8 side.
Probably because with Zirkzee playing you need runners up top as he will drop into that space. Indeed our best attempt came from a Mainoo chip up to Collyer who headed down to Zirkzee to shoot
I thought he was OK in pre-season, then we were afforded time and space. He said it himself in the summer, his in possession game is where he needs to improve the most. And he made quite a few Fellaini-esque moves against Liverpool where he just ran the ball out of play, though unlike Fellaini, he was actually hounded by a couple of Liverpool players.
It seems quite obvious that it is too early for him. I mentioned Gore in the Casemiro thread, but was told he was shite on loan last season. Anyhow, when I saw Gore playing for us in that pre-season last year he looked good, and quite aggressive. And he wasn't scared on the ball like Collyer.
The fact of the matter is we fecked up by not recruiting two midfielders, but I still think Gore could be an option here, certainly from memory I'd take him over Collyer (whom I like, but I think he needs to really improve his game, he's got the physique, energy and aggression).
It seems quite obvious that it is too early for him. I mentioned Gore in the Casemiro thread, but was told he was shite on loan last season. Anyhow, when I saw Gore playing for us in that pre-season last year he looked good, and quite aggressive. And he wasn't scared on the ball like Collyer.
The fact of the matter is we fecked up by not recruiting two midfielders, but I still think Gore could be an option here, certainly from memory I'd take him over Collyer (whom I like, but I think he needs to really improve his game, he's got the physique, energy and aggression).
Agreed. Gore was aggressive and wanted to win the ball, he was also quite impressive when taller players tried to put him off balance. Most of the time it worked out
However Mainoo played more in preseason iirc and looked bigger and fuller so was probably going to be better overall against adult midfielders. Thats why he looked like the one to go with. But because of the hype with Mainoo, Gore may have been a bit overlooked despite having most of the same qualities. He's our best bet at another similar player for midfield and despite being injured, I'm sure he's grown a bit and filled out. He's unlikely to be sharp but you wont know till hes given a chance.
Based on .. ?
I don’t know (or care) what the grain thinks, but I agree. Our dissolving structure and Liverpool’s typical ‘we run the hardest when we can score 4-0 against United’-attitude meant everybody struggled to take the ball through our midfield, not just him. At least he did better than Casemiro in that respect, but Utd weren’t as disjointed when Case consistently lost the ball in the same positions. Off the ball he was our best player after he came in. Not a brilliant performance, but not that bad neither.
People see his limited on the ball ability, and typecast him into a DM, just like what used to happen to McTominay.
But that's not how's been used so far, ETH has used him as an box to box #8, providing energy and keeping it simple.
That's the role he will be used for, not as a sitting #6.
But that's not how's been used so far, ETH has used him as an box to box #8, providing energy and keeping it simple.
That's the role he will be used for, not as a sitting #6.
Thought he did pretty well considering he got thrown in the deep end in the biggest game of the season
Yes he lost the ball a couple of times and the inexperience showed but he didn't let it affect him and still got stuck in
Don't expect him to play much but can fill a squad space since we are 1 midfielder down on last season
Yes he lost the ball a couple of times and the inexperience showed but he didn't let it affect him and still got stuck in
Don't expect him to play much but can fill a squad space since we are 1 midfielder down on last season
Watching him play, you don't need to someone play that many times to know if they have that something special to make it to the top or not, just like last pre-season where Mainoo had that special something about him but Forson didn't.
The fact is this. Whatever type of game this lad had, was purely down to ETHs inept decision making.
If ETH hadn't stuck with an aging midfielder like Casemiro, this guy wouldn't have had to be thrown in the deep end at 2-0 down against our biggest rivals. This is all on ETH.
For some to call out the boy because he had a few stray passes or his positional play was off at times, really isn't justified and it would be wrong to start knocking him this early on in his career based on Sunday.
When he was put on, ETH should have ensured he stayed behind Mainoo. I know we were chasing the game by then, but the tactics were already way off.
We should get behind Collyer, he did well in the circumstances. We could be relying on him more this season than we think if, God forbid, Mainoo or Ugarte get injured.
I'd hate to see him start suffering mental pressures like Sancho or Rashford because us fans expect him to come on and play like prime Messi.
If ETH hadn't stuck with an aging midfielder like Casemiro, this guy wouldn't have had to be thrown in the deep end at 2-0 down against our biggest rivals. This is all on ETH.
For some to call out the boy because he had a few stray passes or his positional play was off at times, really isn't justified and it would be wrong to start knocking him this early on in his career based on Sunday.
When he was put on, ETH should have ensured he stayed behind Mainoo. I know we were chasing the game by then, but the tactics were already way off.
We should get behind Collyer, he did well in the circumstances. We could be relying on him more this season than we think if, God forbid, Mainoo or Ugarte get injured.
I'd hate to see him start suffering mental pressures like Sancho or Rashford because us fans expect him to come on and play like prime Messi.
Some young players can thrive when their is chaos in the team. There is a spot available if he can take it. We won’t know how good he is until he plays consistently in a team that isn’t complete garbage.
He’s now in this protected box for at least two years now where he can demonstrate any level he likes and anyone who speaks against it will be reminded that he’s young, and moreover, from our academy - which puts him off limits. Ignoring the fact that he was never a particularly impressive academy player in the first place, and we were all surprised that Ten Hag had suddenly anointed him - once he has, we need to potentially ride out a long period until even the last man concedes that the excuses are ridiculous and have him in the side until then. This was the exact same McTominay story.
Collyer is not some midfield prodigy I think it’s fair to say, so as a result, he should absolutely be on loan this season proving that he has what it takes to play at a good level, rather than figuring it out in the centre of our midfield. As I said, this is not a player considered one of our elite talents at all, yet so many posters who watched him under age are now pretending that it’s perfectly normal that he’s in our first team. Fortunately, we actually have another youth midfielder who fits the description I speak of right next to him in our midfield currently so my point is underlined.
Kids should only be getting put into the first team if they are exceptional. This isn’t even saying Collyer can never become anything, but he should be on loan at the least.
Collyer is not some midfield prodigy I think it’s fair to say, so as a result, he should absolutely be on loan this season proving that he has what it takes to play at a good level, rather than figuring it out in the centre of our midfield. As I said, this is not a player considered one of our elite talents at all, yet so many posters who watched him under age are now pretending that it’s perfectly normal that he’s in our first team. Fortunately, we actually have another youth midfielder who fits the description I speak of right next to him in our midfield currently so my point is underlined.
Kids should only be getting put into the first team if they are exceptional. This isn’t even saying Collyer can never become anything, but he should be on loan at the least.
I am not sure we will see much of him tbh, unless Ugarte gets injured.
I agree he should really be on loan.
I agree he should really be on loan.
Good post.
It was a baptism of fire for the lad and I thought he handled it well. Liverpools midfield were well drilled and physical. Not helped by so many team mates going missing too.
Am hoping that Dan Gore may soon be back to full fitness as he might see the odd game in the Europa / Carabao cups. He got injured in his first match on loan at Port Vale last season and then needed surgery for a shoulder injury over the summer.
He did handle it well, considering who we were up against.
Some posters saying his level isnt enough and shouldn't be in the team, aren't giving him enough time. I'm not suggesting he's going to be world class by any means, but let's not shit on the lad after one half of a local Derby.
Agree about Gore, I think he's got a lot of potential, just hope he doesn't catch the United injury bug on a regular basis.
I think we've been spoilt by Mainoo's ridiculous ascent into the first team as a seemingly fully formed maestro straight ought of the academy. Scholes and Keane have both said that they were nowhere near Mainoo's level when they were his age and they didn't turn out too bad did they?
The majority of top footballers needed time to adjust to the men's game and the no 6 position (which the club have apparently said Toby's being groomed for) is probably one of the hardest to learn.
People making uninformed judgements about a young player and expecting too much too soon doesn't help their development.
We haven’t been spoilt by Mainoo’s form at all. Mainoo’s form is the requirement. It should literally be the only way he was allowed to run around our midfield all of last season at 18.
The point is, 18 year olds should not, as standard, be playing in our midfield. IF they are to play in our midfield, then it would need to be because they are as good as Mainoo at 18. That’s literally it. Saying that most young midfielders are not on Mainoo’s level is a point easily countered by pointing out that this is why most young midfielders would never be in the United team. The same midfielders might be in the team at 22, on the basis that they might actually be good enough at 22.
The standard to play for United is the standard. It’s not a malleable standard, as ultimately, the results will be the measure. We don’t reduce what is good enough to play in United’s midfield because a player is 18, 12 or 40. If my nephew played for United at 16, he shouldn’t be excused for not being good enough due to his age. We know 16 year olds are unlikely to be good enough, so if we decide to put one there, you would imagine it’s because he’s an exception to that rule.
It’s not expecting too much too soon. We’re not here to do these kids a favour and they don’t need to play. The expectation comes from taking the field in a United shirt. The standard is already set, they need to meet it, just like Mainoo did.
Good that cafe experts already know if he's going to make it or not. As expected they know he's not gonna cut it based on Liverpool game.
I'm sure Ten Hag said he played him on the left side, would that be to double up on Salah?
Gore, I believe, got injured in his first game for Port Vale, and never featured again, but he's no direct comparison to Collyer, who seems at home in that more defensive role. Gore is a more rounded midfielder, he can win the ball, beat a player or two and pass well, Collyer can cover, tackle, make interceptions, but he plays an easy pass to a colleague. In time I think that he will be a bit more creative in his passing, but, oh hang on, the caf's oracles have decreed that he won't make it here, ah well, please disregard my post.
Well, where do I start*?
I didn't say anything about Mainoo's level being above the requirement. I said his rise to that level was extraordinary and unprecedented at Utd. Even Ronaldo took time to get to the proper level and a winger's level is easier to achieve than a defensive or B2B midfielder.
* Actually the rest is a typical straw man argument and doesn't need me to address.
It’s not a straw man argument at all. Mainoo’s level was obviously above the ordinary because the ordinary level for an 18 year old isn’t good enough to play for United, yet there he was playing.It was always going to take an extraordinary level to start 25 games in a row. It’s that simple, and referencing us being ‘spoilt’ by Mainoo’s level as some sort of attempt to get people to temper their expectations of Collyer is misplaced. And Collyer is even 20.
I think that was me that you're referring to but I didn't say he was shite. I thought he started off ok and then misplaced a few passes and his head seemed to go and he was taken off on 54 minutes. As far as I'm aware he wasn't injured (although it would have explained his performance perhaps).
Unfortunately his (later) injury meant that he never had the opportunity to redeem himself and his normal passing ability is such that I think he would have.
Again I never said that we were spoilt by Mainoo's level (100% straw man) I said that we were spoilt by how quickly he performed to that level in a first team environment.
The coaches think that Collyer is ready for 1st team games and they see him in training. His quickest way of achieving the standard is to actually play the games with better players. Ideally that should have been being gradually introduced in easier games than Liverpool (mainly due to internet "experts" jumping on perceived shortcomings).
As for your earlier comment that he never showed anything in the unders, when we signed him from Brighton he was England captain at his age group and very highly regarded. When he refused to sign a contract for them they stopped playing him which held back his development a year. We didn't sign him because he was average at his age group.
There has been a lot of time in between when we signed him from Brighton and when we started playing him in the first team. Literally every youth player we sign at any age is highly regarded, that’s why we sign them. Since he joined the academy, he has not been a stand out player at all.
And I couldn’t care less hoe he performed against Liverpool in isolation. That wasn’t the first time I’ve seen him play. The bigger issue is that his performance against Liverpool came as no surprise to me from what I’ve seen of him prior. So if it’s a long game we’re playing, send him on loan. The United first team midfield is not the place for anything other than the most exceptional young talent to be learning their trade. As literally evidenced by the guy 10 yards to Collyer’s left. That is the standard. When Mainoo was thrown into a charged game at Goodison last season, he was excellent. I’m sure we were not surprised that he was excellent either - he was supposed to be, otherwise we shouldn’t have thrown him in when we did in the first place.
Have we really got to the point where we expect the formerly unprecedented from every youth prospect on their debut? Or, who have I missed that went straight from our academy to finished 1st team article on match one?
I was excited to see Mainoo's MOTM performance against Everton but only in a wild "Roy of the Rovers" fever dream would I have demanded it as a minimum.
easily to get bumped away. so does mainoo. needs to work on body strength
Aye, memory a bit sloppy there. But I don't dispute what you said. Just think he looked more ready to me than Collyer has, not least because I think his footballing ability looks more refined.
I trust the coaches in this. The chain of responsibility goes from his academy coaches through to Darren Fletcher, as liaison between youth and first team, and all of the coaches who have seen him as a regular trainer with the seniors.
The fact Collyer hasn't been earmarked for loan says that he is seen to be physically ready. He needs to be allowed to develop at a natural pace without vitriol from social media and forums, while the coaches do their job with him.
I don't disagree with that. Like I said, I think he's physically ready. But he's not ready ready. So if they want to aid in his development, he'll not be thrown in at the deep end like last weekend too much, but gradually brought on. I also think had we been relatively OK with midfielders he'd likely have gone out on loan.
Watching him in pre season, the kid was literally everywhere, he was always available to receive a pass from a defender or an attacker. I'm surprised that Bruno actually covers more ground than him. I know people don't seem to rate him on here and I didn't either until I saw him this summer, will be at worst a reliable squad player.
I like Toby think there’s a decent player in there but Zidane Iqbal looked literally like Zinedine Zidane in ETH’s first pre season, where he’s at now?
These players can only be judged by how they perform in competitive matches.
Tbf Zidane Iqbal is (statistically) actually performing quite well in Holland. https://fbref.com/en/players/6fa3c28e/Zidane-Iqbal
I still believe
I think the thing with Collyer is whether he has the quality on the ball in terms of being able to take it in tight spaces and get passes off (he has looked a little clumsyon the ball). So far for the first team he hasn't shown much of that to label him as a stand out youth player, however his few appearances this season for the u21s showed more of that side of his game. So there seems to be talent there but the jump from u21 to first team is huge. We've seen the likes of Hannibal recently look like he didn't belong at this level despite being hyped more than Collyer so lets see how he develops this season. He will be an interesting project for Ten Hag if he gets time this season.