[Red in STL]

Butt was first-choice for several years, and was a fine player in his day. Seen nothing from young Collyer yet to suggest he can hit that level, but hopefully he goes on to have a good career.

Not sure you'd have seen that much of Nicky Butt at that sort of age either to make an half decent comparison

 

[2cents]

Not sure you'd have seen that much of Nicky Butt at that sort of age either to make an half decent comparison

Butt was 20 when Fergie sold Ince without bringing in a replacement from outside. Butt went on to be a pivotal member of the double-winning side in the season that followed (having already had something of breakout season during 94/95). He was at that time regarded as the most mature of the class of 92 group following Giggs into the first team. So all of us following United back then saw plenty of him.

Right now Collyer has just turned 21, the same age Butt was in January 1996 during the double-winning 95/96 season, when he made over 40 appearances. I really hope Collyer does go on to establish himself, and if achieves a quarter of what butt did in his first few seasons with United then he’ll have already had a fine career for someone with his talents.

 

[AneRu]

There is a place in the squad for a player of his ilk, that he's cost us a pittance and is home-grown there is no need to expect him to be Rodri or Busquerts. If he ever shows more then it's a nice little bonus for him and us as we will save a few millions and the hassle of seaching for a DM.

Loving the fact that he is playing and setting a niche for himself in the side. He will be a good back up for Ugarte, the fact that he can hold fort in midfield and allow us to rest Ugarte is very encouraging.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Butt was 20 when Fergie sold Ince without bringing in a replacement from outside. Butt went on to be a pivotal member of the double-winning side in the season that followed (having already had something of breakout season during 94/95). He was at that time regarded as the most mature of the class of 92 group following Giggs into the first team. So all of us following United back then saw plenty of him.

Right now Collyer has just turned 21, the same age Butt was in January 1996 during the double-winning 95/96 season, when he made over 40 appearances. I really hope Collyer does go on to establish himself, and if achieves a quarter of what butt did in his first few seasons with United then he’ll have already had a fine career for someone with his talents.

All true and ofcourse Butt was a better player, but he also played in a lot better team, more established and some real strong characters and leaders in the team. That made it easier for young players if you could look at Schmeichel, Keane, Cantona, Irwin, Bruce and Pallister still in the team/squad, Cole scoring goals. Even senior and very professional players like Parker and McClair in a balanced squad. Maybe a bit easier for a young player than the chaos years with TH.

 

[2cents]

All true and ofcourse Butt was a better player, but he also played in a lot better team, more established and some real strong characters and leaders in the team. That made it easier for young players if you could look at Schmeichel, Keane, Cantona, Irwin, Bruce and Pallister still in the team/squad, Cole scoring goals. Even senior and very professional players like Parker and McClair in a balanced squad. Maybe a bit easier for a young player than the chaos years with TH.

I agree, and this all the more reason to be more cautious when assessing Collyer’s potential impact with us.

 

[El Jefe]

I’ll get some flak for this but midfielders who show no real quality on the ball just don’t excite me. Not asking young lads to be Scholes but the easiest thing to do is get in the side be safe in possession, get around the pitch and be aggressive. That is a good foundation for all PL midfielders so in the short term we’ll be happy because we lack this but if he doesn’t start showing some ability with the ball he won’t last long.

I’m hoping he has more to his game and can start showing it when he gets more comfortable. Never really followed him in the academy, what was he like with passing and in possession there?

 

[flameinthesun]

I’ll get some flak for me midfielders who show no real quality on the ball just don’t excite me. Not asking young lads to be Scholes but the easiest thing to do is get in the side be safe in possession, get around the pitch and be aggressive. That is a good foundation for all PL midfielders so in the short term we’ll be happy because we lack this but if he doesn’t start showing some ability with the ball he won’t last long.

I’m hoping he has more to his game and can start showing it when he gets more comfortable. Never really followed him in the academy, what was he like with passing and in possession there?

Agreed.

Collyer's technical ability looks less than Mctominay's at the same age. Hopefully, he can develop it more, however, most players who don't have that technical level already at this age don't suddenly develop it. For context, Ugarte is much better technically in tight spaces and on the ball, and he's viewed as being limited.

Where Collyer does stand out is his physicality and pace in midfield which I genuinely think is intriguing. In a perfect scenario I could see him develop into a Declan Rice type. Decent on the ball but a powerhouse in midfield. Still would rely on him getting better technically.

 

[FrankWhite]

He's an athlete with a really good engine however on the ball he's still quite basic, this much he admitted himself in preseason. Don't see him and Ugarte playing together often as that would mean little ball progression through the middle. Maybe if we're trying to see out a lead. He saves us having to get a backup for Ugarte until at least the summer. Who knows, maybe make a leap forward in develop and gets the job permanently.

 

[Tallis]

I’ll get some flak for this but midfielders who show no real quality on the ball just don’t excite me. Not asking young lads to be Scholes but the easiest thing to do is get in the side be safe in possession, get around the pitch and be aggressive. That is a good foundation for all PL midfielders so in the short term we’ll be happy because we lack this but if he doesn’t start showing some ability with the ball he won’t last long.

I’m hoping he has more to his game and can start showing it when he gets more comfortable. Never really followed him in the academy, what was he like with passing and in possession there?

I think your view is more mainstream to be honest. I am actually worried that I will get flak for saying Collyer looks good and his "on the ball" play will develop with more game time and he will be perfectly acceptable rotation option.

 

[TwoSheds]

I’ll get some flak for this but midfielders who show no real quality on the ball just don’t excite me. Not asking young lads to be Scholes but the easiest thing to do is get in the side be safe in possession, get around the pitch and be aggressive. That is a good foundation for all PL midfielders so in the short term we’ll be happy because we lack this but if he doesn’t start showing some ability with the ball he won’t last long.

I’m hoping he has more to his game and can start showing it when he gets more comfortable. Never really followed him in the academy, what was he like with passing and in possession there?

His long passing off both feet is pretty decent when he has space. How that translates to Premier League level remains to be seen. He's certainly a fairly basic player in terms of his game but he was able to set tempo and create a bit at lower levels.

 

[Rasmus_9]

His long passing off both feet is pretty decent when he has space. How that translates to Premier League level remains to be seen. He's certainly a fairly basic player in terms of his game but he was able to set tempo and create a bit at lower levels.

When Collyer signed for us, he was build as a ball playing central midfielder (in the Carrick mould) I think he has a lot more in his locker than what we have seen so far and will get better and better the more he plays

 

[TwoSheds]

When Collyer signed for us, he was build as a ball playing central midfielder (in the Carrick mould) I think he has a lot more in his locker than what we have seen so far and will get better and better the more he plays

Well he seems to have a great work ethic which is a good start. I'm not convinced he has anything like Carrick's ability though, has a lot to do to prove that if so!

 

[bringbackbebe]

Well he seems to have a great work ethic which is a good start. I'm not convinced he has anything like Carrick's ability though, has a lot to do to prove that if so!

No one was convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was Collyer's age as well.

 

[TwoSheds]

No one was convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was Collyer's age as well.

I dunno, I think they're very different players. Collyer is more physical and mobile, Carrick read the game superbly and played passes. If Collyer gets to be anything like at Carrick's level on the ball then he'd be world class probably.

 

[Insanity]

No one was convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was Collyer's age as well.

I agree, every 20 year old whether he is playing football or not is going to turn into Carrick by the time they are 25. Like every Hojlund is going to become RVP.

 

[cirilus]

No one was convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was Collyer's age as well.

Funny and true. Sometimes a bit of confidence and some rational backing and conducting of youngsters goes a long way. What is easy to see is that he is being used in a positive manner, and is building his base for the future. Unlike Kobbie and Garna were back then.

 

[Pronewbie]

I reckon the plan was to develop Collyer into an Ugarte and keep McT for the goals. We're a mess anyway so I don't think this season was going to amount to anything significant other than a good cup run.

I think he's currently good enough for a back-up/squad rotation role.

 

[bringbackbebe]

I dunno, I think they're very different players. Collyer is more physical and mobile, Carrick read the game superbly and played passes. If Collyer gets to be anything like at Carrick's level on the ball then he'd be world class probably.

Collyer is more of a Fletcher than Carrick. I have no idea if he'll make it to Fletcher level or not but players in his profile often take time to showcase their ability and can be considered a decent backup during that period. Our problem due to the state of the squad is that we expect these kids to replace prime Fletcher immediately. His profile is very valuable to have and is often underestimated part of most teams. If he doesn't make display enough by the time he's 23/24, then we can obviously sell him.

 

[TwoSheds]

I reckon the plan was to develop Collyer into an Ugarte and keep McT for the goals. We're a mess anyway so I don't think this season was going to amount to anything significant other than a good cup run.

I think he's currently good enough for a back-up/squad rotation role.

If we'd have done that everybody would have been slating him all year and complaining about the lack of ambition.

 

[Rozay]

Seen little quality beyond physical attributes and I suspect he’ll be sold in the summer.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

Clearly a PSR player.

Good luck to him

 

[RuudTom83]

He has played a grand total of 121 minutes in the league this season.

There is no way anyone on the Cafe can sensibly judge him off such a small sample size.

Blows my mind how little time supporters* are willing to give players before flogging them in the summer.

 

[Big Andy]

No one was convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was Collyer's age as well.

Some people weren't convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was actually being Carrick.

 

[Rozay]

He has played a grand total of 121 minutes in the league this season.

There is no way anyone on the Cafe can sensibly judge him off such a small sample size.

Blows my mind how little time supporters* are willing to give players before flogging them in the summer.

Agreed. Close thread for two years.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Some people weren't convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was actually being Carrick.

Carrick.

 

[bringbackbebe]

Some people weren't convinced of Carrick's ability to be like Carrick when Carrick was actually being Carrick.

I remember when we purchased him from Spurs, there was an absolute outrage among the fans. Here are threads from the CAF:

Carrick is no better than Butt or Fortune - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cole-defoe-carrick.27638/ (not a single poster wanted Carrick when he was 22 and rated Defoe over Cole and Carrick)
Jenas over Carrick - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fletcher-fabregas-jenas-and-carrick.82983/
Let's get Lennon instead of Carrick - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/forget-carrick-get-lennon-instead.118409/
We got ripped off for Carrick - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/united-defend-carrick-price.122447/

Simplest way to succeed seems to be listen to the fans and do the exact opposite.

 

[Red in STL]

I guess based on the Carrick posts the CAF isn't a very good judge of players!

 

[Brightonian]

He needs to provide a palatable Ugarte back-up and play reasonably well for a couple of years until a Kone or similar comes through the youth sides, or we have the opportunity/capacity to buy better.

Then we sell him, like McTominay, for a decent fee, a healthy PSR boost and he goes on to have a good career elsewhere.

If our academy is functioning, this should become normal business. Treating every young prospect as either a future megastar who we can never sell or completely useless and to be sold immediately has been our mistake in the past. There is a middle ground.

 

[DOTA]

I guess based on the Carrick posts the CAF isn't a very good judge of players!

It's not but we were unusually weird about him specifically.

 

[Rozay]

He needs to provide a palatable Ugarte back-up and play reasonably well for a couple of years until a Kone or similar comes through the youth sides, or we have the opportunity/capacity to buy better.

Then we sell him, like McTominay, for a decent fee, a healthy PSR boost and he goes on to have a good career elsewhere.

If our academy is functioning, this should become normal business. Treating every young prospect as either a future megastar who we can never sell or completely useless and to be sold immediately has been our mistake in the past. There is a middle ground.

This seems sensible.

 

[lex talionis]

I really like what Toby has contributed so far and see no basis for criticism of him. The squad as a whole is a mess and if a young player can come on and give us a few quality minutes here and there while the manager tries to sort out the problems with the first team, we should welcome his contribution.

 

[led_scholes]

Butt was 20 when Fergie sold Ince without bringing in a replacement from outside. Butt went on to be a pivotal member of the double-winning side in the season that followed (having already had something of breakout season during 94/95). He was at that time regarded as the most mature of the class of 92 group following Giggs into the first team. So all of us following United back then saw plenty of him.

Right now Collyer has just turned 21, the same age Butt was in January 1996 during the double-winning 95/96 season, when he made over 40 appearances. I really hope Collyer does go on to establish himself, and if achieves a quarter of what butt did in his first few seasons with United then he’ll have already had a fine career for someone with his talents.

Earlier in the thread, I said that I would love if he reached Butt's level. For whatever reason, some posters took it as a negative comparison, and that I am downplaying him, while I honestly consider it as a compliment to Collyer.

Some players mature earlier than others. Not all follow the same path to the first team. But I stand on my hope that he can become a similar player. Butt was a very good PL midfielder. Not world class obviously, but an important player during our golden years. And he was able to replicate it with the NT as well.

 

[Red in STL]

It's not but we were unusually weird about him specifically.

I wasn't around in those days but it's pretty obvious that not a whole has changed!

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

I tend to be quite patient with young players

However, people already drawing comparisons to players like Butt, Mctomminay, Cleverley says alot imo.

We can have players like Butt, Mctomminay, Cleverley when we have a really good squad with world class players but when our squad is lacking such top quality players, we can't rely on players like butt, oshea, cleverley, Mctomminay to be such intergral part of our team etc.

We are in a state now where we need to build a first team/squad that one day has the ability to not only cover for Ugarte, but even put Ugarte on the bench.

That's the type of squad we need to get us back to the top.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

Someone like Curtis Jones is another example of a player who I think is quite good. There is a difference between Curtis Jones playing as one of the main players in your team and Curtis Jones playing as a rotatable option of a team that already has players like Salah, Macallister, Gravenberch, Gakpo, Szboslzlai, Van Dijk etc. The effect of Curtis Jones not being a world class is taking a less a toll on Liverpool than it would be for us.