Tiemoue Bakayoko

[bucky]

Ah, I was actually going to guess the same as Sereques. I like how Lemar has developed this season, adding some orthodox wing play to his game.

I think Mbappe is unique actually. If we had to prioritise signings from Monaco, I'd say that Lemar, Bernardo Silva and Mbappe should be the first on our list. They simply are the most talented players in my eyes. But we might need someone like Fabinho the most.

You think Bakayoko is better than Matic? I wouldn't mind Jose taking Matic off your hands. But obviously you'll need Matic as well with CL next season.

Mendy and Semedo/Munier would be perfect. I'm expecting Costa to leave. So one of Lukaku/Belotti and you are set. That would be a very hard team to beat.

No, he thinks Bakayoko is a better midfielder than Pogba.

 

[kode]

I hope we lose this battle and win the one for Fabinho

 

[ivaldo]

The opposite. Far from Matic. I already said why

You've confused me a bit here. So I take it to don't rate him at all?

 

[Fracture90]

I hope we lose this battle and win the one for Fabinho

Seconded.

 

[arthurka]

I hope we lose this battle and win the one for Fabinho

Hope we get both...

 

[roonster09]

I hope we lose this battle and win the one for Fabinho

We might not get Fabinho if Monaco lose Bakayoko.

 

[Orc]

Reading this thread you'd be convinced Bakayoko is essentially a big lump who's very limited on the ball. I know YouTube montages can make anyone look great, but watched his ScoutNation vid that was posted recently and he looks excellent on the ball. Good control in tight areas when being pressed, great at carrying the ball forward, can dribble past players. He also appears to have very serviceable passing ability both short and long ranges.

He looks to me like a slightly more technical Matic. Would definitely be useful for any top side in the PL. Can certainly see why both Conte and Mou are reportedly admirers.

 

[Chaky_Best]

If Conte is to start all 3 of them (ofc if Bakayoko joins them in the first place that is) that MF 3 would be completely deprived of any creativity.

Out of 3 of them, only Matić has passing skills.

Yes but I do remember that with Italy Conte played with 3 defensive midfielders and two strikers.

He can try his 3-4-3 in an other way. With Matic controlling (a creativeless Pirlo ) and two ball winners in Kante and Bakayoko

 

[Fracture90]

Yes but I do remember that with Italy Conte played with 3 defensive midfielders and two strikers.

He can try his 3-4-3 in an other way. With Matic controlling (a creativeless Pirlo ) and two ball winners in Kante and Bakayoko

But where you gonna fit all 3 in the same time? 1 WB is out than.

 

[Fracture90]

Gotta admit one thing tho, this dude has an awesome Pharaoh -esque goatee.

 

[Womp]

Gotta admit one thing tho, this dude has an awesome Pharaoh -esque goatee.

If he does join he'll also be a contender for best name in the league. His name is world class.

 

[giorno]

Yes but I do remember that with Italy Conte played with 3 defensive midfielders and two strikers.

He can try his 3-4-3 in an other way. With Matic controlling (a creativeless Pirlo ) and two ball winners in Kante and Bakayoko

De Rossi-Parolo-Giaccherini. Not exactly 3 purely defensive players

Don't think Conte will play all 3 together in a midfield 3, unless they have a lead to defend

 

[dichinero]

If Conte is to start all 3 of them (ofc if Bakayoko joins them in the first place that is) that MF 3 would be completely deprived of any creativity.

Out of 3 of them, only Matić has passing skills.

Doesn't have to play three together. Strength in depth?

 

[Fracture90]

Doesn't have to play three together. Strength in depth?

Some poster above meant he would play all 3 together.

 

[NoPace]

That was quite an elaborate description of why Napoli might want him.

I don't know why he would want to leave at 30 to go to a club that has less ambition than Chelsea and probably end up getting paid less. In a new league and city too. Sounds like too much risk for no benefit bar some more playing time. Would that be a priority for him?

From Chelsea's perspective, I think he offers something Bakayoko will never offer in terms of penetrative passing and goal scoring. Kante, Bakayoko, Matic and Chalobah is basically a midfield devoid of creative options. That swap will make Chelsea poorer in MF.

As for Napoli going for Ibra, it's because Mertens is on the last year of his contract and looking for a move. Not sure if there's any meat to the Ibra story but it does look like Mertens will be going this summer.

Agreed with everything there, really, apart from playing time. Cesc is 30, why wouldn't he want to be first choice? He can be a creative option off the bench in 2-3 years when his legs start to go. Of course Chelsea should try to hang on to him. It's hard to find a consistently creatively productive CM who will sit on the bench. But Cesc should be first choice in a midfield 3. He's still one of the best in the world at providing a killer pass.

The elaboration was because I'm always annoyed when great players don't play. It's one of the worst parts of the modern late capitalism football world. James Rodriguez wasting away at Madrid instead of being the man at a slightly worse side is just poor human capital. I'd cap squads at something like 16 players over the age of 21 or something like that. Might not survive a legal challenge, but we'd get stronger "B level sides" like Liverpool and Inter Milan and Leverkusen and Sevilla and "C level" sides like Everton and Lazio. Let the fans see great players and make the big squads rely more on youth development for depth.

 

[ti vu]

You've confused me a bit here. So I take it to don't rate him at all?

Not that. He's just not a Matic type of player. You're looking at no 8. Would be compete with Kante or Pogba instead of solely doing the defensive job

 

[ivaldo]

Not that. He's just not a Matic type of player. You're looking at no 8. Would be compete with Kante or Pogba instead of solely doing the defensive job

Isn't that what I said? Too similar to Kante, biggest asset ball winner?

 

[ti vu]

Isn't that what I said? Too similar to Kante, biggest asset ball winner?

He's no 8 but not you defensive active Kante, but toward offensive Pogba & a bit lazy with his movement aka the Fellaini comparison (not that he's slow as Fellaini or as dirty)

 

[ivaldo]

Not that. He's just not a Matic type of player. You're looking at no 8. Would be compete with Kante or Pogba instead of solely doing the defensive job

Isn't that what I said? Too similar to Kante, biggest asset ball winner?

He's no 8 but not you defensive active Kante, but toward offensive Pogba & a bit lazy with his movement aka the Fellaini comparison (not that he's slow as Fellaini or as dirty)

He's nothing like Pogba. Other than being box to box players they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[ti vu]

Isn't that what I said? Too similar to Kante, biggest asset ball winner?

He's nothing like Pogba. Other than being box to box players they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Key word is offensive. Biggest asset is never ball winning. A guy who is on lazy side of work rate defensively while not possessing positional awareness & discipline, and main asset being ball winning; that's quite unthinkable for me. He can be good with his tackle, strength to dispossess opponent here & there; but not your sole defensive midfielder.

 

[ivaldo]

Key word is offensive. Biggest asset is never ball winning. A guy who is on lazy side while not possessing positional awareness & discipline, and main asset being ball winning; that's quite unthinkable for me.

We must have been watching two very different players.

Who scored seem to also heavily agree, three strengths include ball blocking, interceptions and tackling ie ball winner.

 

[BlueCelery]

Key word is offensive. Biggest asset is never ball winning. A guy who is on lazy side of work rate defensively while not possessing positional awareness & discipline, and main asset being ball winning; that's quite unthinkable for me. He can be good with his tackle, strength to dispossess opponent here & there; but not your sole defensive midfielder.

I actually thought you were talking about Pogba all this time.

 

[pocco]

Why is there often a refusal to take into account the fact that a player is younger and still to be moulded into the final product? If people accept this then Bakayoko suddenly looks a very promising player. I remember saying the same thing with Griezman. Not saying Bakayoko will go on to become that level of player, but he could. It's down to the coaches now and his willingness to listen and push himself to improve.

 

[worldinmotion66]

He's like Ander Herrera in Pogba's body - good at pressing and getting around the pitch, decent on the ball but lacking a little technically, tall and rangy.

Do not want, or need necessarily. We have far more pressing squad issues.

 

[JPRouve]

We must have been watching two very different players.

Who scored seem to also heavily agree, three strengths include ball blocking, interceptions and tackling ie ball winner.

Ball blocking? They didn't based that one on tapes or their own stats. Whoscored have weird descriptions sometimes.

 

[ti vu]

We must have been watching two very different players.

Who scored seem to also heavily agree, three strengths include ball blocking, interceptions and tackling ie ball winner.

Must be then. And I don't rate who scored description on players. Take our Herrera as example:
Strength:
-Defensive contribution Very Strong
-Passing Strong
-Through balls Strong
-Direct free-kicks Strong
-Tackling Strong
-Concentration Strong

Very generic...

Defensive contribution is very strong, but as what? no 6? Debatable as positional discipline can be hard to measure by stat & Herrera can be wild with his pressing at time. He's sure putting good stats, but does he offer enough protection for our defense as sole defensive holding midfielder?

Passing is strong, at which range, what tempo? Herrera is second to quite few of our own in medium to longer range pass. Herrera played at a higher pace & not as good at controlling a game at slower pace, even though he's one of our best at short range pass.

Direct free kick strong. He hardly takes our direct free kick...

I actually thought you were talking about Pogba all this time.

That's why in earlier post I liken him to offensive no 8 in Pogba (role wise, not style wise) when @ivaldo trying with Kante comparison...

Why is there often a refusal to take into account the fact that a player is younger and still to be moulded into the final product? If people accept this then Bakayoko suddenly looks a very promising player. I remember saying the same thing with Griezman. Not saying Bakayoko will go on to become that level of player, but he could. It's down to the coaches now and his willingness to listen and push himself to improve.

Thing is you can get a player with potential, but do a LVG/ Pep trying to turn him into something else unnatural than his game since the philosophy rates certain attributes. The player ended up half baked & never fulfilled his potential. Or just find a role that fit him & build system to let him fill out.

 

[Reynoldo]

Chelsea are a perfectly oiled machine at the moment so he can be eased in their through rotation as a squad option or back where as we need the finished article right now.

They are a purring rolls royce where as we are like a Lada from the times of the USSR desperately needing essential parts to keep motoring up. Fabinho would be a much better fit for us right now.

 

[ivaldo]

Ball blocking? They didn't based that one on tapes or their own stats. Whoscored have weird descriptions sometimes.

Yeah a bit off, to me it's remarkably similar to interceptions. Maybe it's purely blocking as in blocked shots.

Must be then. And I don't rate who scored description on players. Take our Herrera as example:
Strength:
-Defensive contribution Very Strong
-Passing Strong
-Through balls Strong
-Direct free-kicks Strong
-Tackling Strong
-Concentration Strong

Very generic.


That's why in earlier post I liken him to offensive no 8 in Pogba when @ivaldo trying with Kante comparison...

Yeah that sums up Herrera quite nicely I feel.

Pogba's primary focus is to create and assist offensively, Bakayoko is to win the ball back for his team. It's why his assists, chance creation and goals are so low in a free scoring Monaco side. They may both play box to box positions but their primary responsibilities are polar opposites.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah a bit off, to me it's remarkably similar to interceptions. Maybe it's purely blocking as in blocked shots.

No, they are just terrible. For Smalling they mention passing and crossing.

 

[ivaldo]

No, they are just terrible. For Smalling they mention passing and crossing.

High passing completion and high cross completion, fairly obvious where it comes from.

 

[ti vu]

Yeah a bit off, to me it's remarkably similar to interceptions. Maybe it's purely blocking as in blocked shots.


Yeah that sums up Herrera quite nicely I feel.

Pogba's primary focus is to create and assist offensively, Bakayoko is to win the ball back for his team. It's why his assists, chance creation and goals are so low in a free scoring Monaco side. They may both play box to box positions but their primary responsibilities are polar opposites.

And that's very wrong.
Take Casemiro stats & description for example.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/88526/Show/Casemiro

Tackle 5.1 Interception 2.2 (La Liga Tackle 5 Interception 1.7; CL Tackle 5.3 Interception 4)

Strength
Aerial Duels Strong
Passing Strong
Blocking the ball Strong
Tackling Strong

No interception mention when it's one of his main strength. Why when Bakayoko has despite lower average? My guess would be the La Liga stats which offset this & fool the computers, or whoever interpret this stats. They forgot that La Liga teams are very good at keeping possession (better compare to other league), so it's harder to intercept the pass. CL group stage against canon fodders could help boosting stat. Is Casemiro interception stats less impressive than Bakayoko's or is it the quality of passing game in La Liga is underrated here?

Back to Bakayoko, his biggest asset is his ability to run strongly through the midfield which helps supply the ball toward the attackers = ideal for any transitioning style team, since it lessen the reliance on deep play maker. If he's as good as Kante in ball winning & work as hard with such ability, his chance creation at least wouldn't be as bad. I meant his run through the middle is on the top spectrum of midfielder. If he could win the ball closer to opponent goal, he wouldn't have to lay it off to the assister. The guy is not asked to sit deep holding his position all the time, but still had to pick up the ball from deep position due to his inferior (to Kante) ball winning ability.

Edit: Blocking shot stat would be a shite stat to judge a player overall. I meant some teams don't shoot enough (LVG United) or some teams don't do well enough to create chance. For example the game vs Rostov in Russia, we only needs one block all game (Rojo). Does that mean. If we play many teams in such scrappy game, almost our players never have to make a block & while Fellaini would be the best pass interceptor (he doubled that of Herrera's in same game). Morale of lesson yet again is context.

I can't say your opinion on seeing Bakayoko differently from me is wrong. I just say that I have my doubt if these kind of stats is this reliable especially given French league overall playing field.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

He suits a place in Conte's current side way more than he'd suit one in ours.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

I think he'll be a big hit with Chelsea but also, I wouldn't be too arsed about missing out on him. It seems there are players out there in CM that we need more than Bakayoko, so I hope we focus on getting one in. Everyone here seems convinced about Fabinho so I'll trust the judgement.

 

[ivaldo]

And that's very wrong.
Take Casemiro stats & description for example.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/88526/Show/Casemiro

Tackle 5.1 Interception 2.2 (La Liga Tackle 5 Interception 1.7; CL Tackle 5.3 Interception 4)

Strength
Aerial Duels Strong
Passing Strong
Blocking the ball Strong
Tackling Strong

No interception mention when it's one of his main strength. Why when Bakayoko has despite lower average? My guess would be the La Liga stats which offset this & fool the computers, or whoever interpret this stats. They forgot that La Liga teams are very good at keeping possession (better compare to other league), so it's harder to intercept the pass. CL group stage against canon fodders could help boosting stat. Is Casemiro interception stats less impressive than Bakayoko's or is it the quality of passing game in La Liga is underrated here?

Back to Bakayoko, his biggest asset is his ability to run strongly through the midfield which helps supply the ball toward the attackers = ideal for any transitioning style team, since it lessen the reliance on deep play maker. If he's as good as Kante in ball winning & work as hard with such ability, his chance creation at least wouldn't be as bad. I meant his run through the middle is on the top spectrum of midfielder. If he could win the ball closer to opponent goal, he wouldn't have to lay it off to the assister. The guy is not asked to sit deep holding his position all the time, but still had to pick up the ball from deep position due to his inferior (to Kante) ball winning ability.

Coincidentally they also list his Dribbling about as a strength. I really don't think some people realise these competencies are generated form a formula based on stats this season. So it'll include failed attempts at interceptions as often as successful ones. I want to reiterate it doesn't give a definitive explanation of a players role, it just gives a good idea. Would you agree the listed strengths of Casemiro would suit a ball winning midfielder as opposed to an attacking midfielder?

You keep talking about sitting deep defensively, no one has said this is what he does, this isn't what Kante does either. Between Matic and Kante the latter is given far more license to press and hound higher up the pitch. And when Chelsea do counter attack it's often Kante who joins in the attack, nor Matic. He's simply not as good as Kante, so of course his ball winning ability is inferior, it doesn't mean he isn't a ball winning midfielder though.

 

[ti vu]

Coincidentally they also list his Dribbling about as a strength. I really don't think some people realise these competencies are generated form a formula based on stats this season. So it'll include failed attempts at interceptions as often as successful ones. I want to reiterate it doesn't give a definitive explanation of a players role, it just gives a good idea. Would you agree the listed strengths of Casemiro would suit a ball winning midfielder as opposed to an attacking midfielder?

You keep talking about sitting deep defensively, no one has said this is what he does, this isn't what Kante does either. Between Matic and Kante the latter is given far more license to press and hound higher up the pitch. And when Chelsea do counter attack it's often Kante who joins in the attack, nor Matic. He's simply not as good as Kante, so of course his ball winning ability is inferior, it doesn't mean he isn't a ball winning midfielder though.

Not necessarily true if you look at Matic through stats. I meant you need more detailed stats to tell the story like area where the ball won interception or tackle, where the dribbling run start... Matic looks as if an average attacking midfielder (6 assist would cloud people's judgement) with stats than defensive holding midfielder.

Bakayoko had good stat playing in the right role, but give him Kante role he arguably would be very underwhelming as I said, he's not as energetic & hungry to get involved. You're generalizing different roles into same big categories here (ball winner). Taking Matic, if being required, he can rake up defensive impressively too (he did in the past). Just that he is now tasked with different (tweaked) role in different system having Kante instead of Cesc.

 

[ivaldo]

Not necessarily true if you look at Matic through stats. I meant you need more detailed stats to tell the story like area where the ball won interception or tackle, where the dribbling run start... Matic looks as if an average attacking midfielder (6 assist would cloud people's judgement) with stats than defensive holding midfielder.

Bakayoko had good stat playing in the right role, but give him Kante role he arguably would be very underwhelming as I said, he's not as energetic & hungry to get involved. You're generalizing different roles into same big categories here (ball winner). Taking Matic, if being required, he can rake up defensive impressively too (he did in the past). Just that he is now tasked with different (tweaked) role in different system having Kante instead of Cesc.

Matic key strengths aerial duels, passing, tackling, suits a deeplying player if you ask me.

He is going to come up short when comparing him to Kante because Kante is a much, much better player.

I've compared him to Kante, you've compared him to Pogba, it appears you're taking a far bigger league on generalizing positions than I am. Whether he is as good as Kante or not it doesn't remove the fact that primarily he is in the side to win the ball back, like Kanté, whereas Pogba is in the side to support offensively.

 

[Arka_BleedingRed]

Bakayoko this, Bakayoko that. Seems a lot of attention, after the Balague tweet, towards a guy who is not even the best midfield player in his own team. Regarding the unending comparisons to Pogba/Kante/Matic etc. I just feel that he is most similar to the guy he succeeded at Monaco, Geoffrey Kondogbia. So many similar abilities, Bakayoko maybe is slightly better defensively, while Kondogbia is better offensively. Dunno if he is suited to Chelsea(frankly, don't care) but he certainly doesn't suit the profile of midfielder we should be looking for.

I actually thought you were talking about Pogba all this time.

Pogba has the ability to be a game-changer, don't think the same can be said of Bakayoko.

 

[Devil may care]

I think Mbappe is unique actually. If we had to prioritise signings from Monaco, I'd say that Lemar, Bernardo Silva and Mbappe should be the first on our list. They simply are the most talented players in my eyes. But we might need someone like Fabinho the most.

What you do you mean when you say Mbappe is unique? Like you'd bring him in regardless due to how high his ceiling is? Fabinho as a holding CM could be good for us but it would leave more tinkeirng to be done with the midfield 3 to get the balance right

 

[bucky]

What you do you mean when you say Mbappe is unique? Like you'd bring him in regardless due to how high his ceiling is? Fabinho as a holding CM could be good for us but it would leave more tinkeirng to be done with the midfield 3 to get the balance right

Yes, purely in terms of talent. Saw him for the under 19s of France 18 months ago or so and he was outstanding among a group of talented players. IMO we need a seasoned goalscoring threat a bit more than another youngster, but if we stand a chance we should definitely try to get him.

I get what you are saying with Fabinho, I'm just sceptical that we have a chance of signing Weigl this summer and Fabinho might be the best choice for now. The fact that he could play at right-back would obviously help enormously and possibly he could take over from Valencia there, if we sign a better passer later on. Danilo, Paredes and Strootman could work as well, but with all those players would come an uncertainty we should be avoiding.

 

[ti vu]

Matic key strengths aerial duels, passing, tackling, suits a deeplying player if you ask me.

He is going to come up short when comparing him to Kante because Kante is a much, much better player.

I've compared him to Kante, you've compared him to Pogba, it appears you're taking a far bigger league on generalizing positions than I am. Whether he is as good as Kante or not it doesn't remove the fact that primarily he is in the side to win the ball back, like Kanté, whereas Pogba is in the side to support offensively.

I will completely disagree. Casemiro also holding the deep position of the midfielder just before the defense like Matic.

Come on man. Ball winner is very generalization. Let's see it this way: Di Maria as the most offensive of Real Madrid midfielder 3 could be a ball winner, Welbeck or Park when being deployed to man mark. Vieira played between G. Silva & forward line, while being extreme good at winning back the ball, is he the same as Casemiro?

A number 6 no 8 no 10 no 9 is generalization term to the area where the player plays, nothing to say about the roles. So when I class Bakayoko Pogba & Kante as 8, did I say they're same? I clearly pointed out the role, didn't I (remember offensive vs defensive?)?

The bolded part is very wrong as you're trying generalize the role (not area of players' influence). Take Matic out then there would a huge space in front of Chelsea defensive line just like having Herrera who can be crazy with pressing & leave position open (I remember said this about Herrrere), and Carrick role can be neglected & Herrera is superior defensive midfielder (generalized) with all this tackle stat.

Back to this Bakakyoko guy, as I said, he's not like Kante that running around harassing players. Not similar to Matic or Casemiro who solely holding position in front of defensive line (Fabinho job) either.