To me a playmaker is the CM that controls the tempo of his teams play, not really an offensive player nor always creative, but the player that has the patience, intelligence and game reading ability to move the players around with his passing, sometimes taking 5 simple passes to position things to make the cutting pass into the forwards. Pogba is best when he sees less of the ball and when he recieves it in the attacking 3rd where he can create a chance or fashion an opening for a shot, Pirlo rationed how much he saw of the ball at Juve and it was by far the best and most productive football off his career, when he sees too much of the ball he gets impatient and tries to force things, when he is older he may well be a playmaker and thrive deeper, but for the next few years he needs to remain an offensive cog in the midfield 3 IMO, not the one responsible for running it.
Tiemoue Bakayoko
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To me a playmaker is the CM that controls the tempo of his teams play, not really an offensive player nor always creative, but the player that has the patience, intelligence and game reading ability to move the players around with his passing, sometimes taking 5 simple passes to position things to make the cutting pass into the forwards. Pogba is best when he sees less of the ball and when he recieves it in the attacking 3rd where he can create a chance or fashion an opening for a shot, Pirlo rationed how much he saw of the ball at Juve and it was by far the best and most productive football off his career, when he sees too much of the ball he gets impatient and tries to force things, when he is older he may well be a playmaker and thrive deeper, but for the next few years he needs to remain an offensive cog in the midfield 3 IMO, not the one responsible for running it.
Marcelo Brozovic.
My money is on him to be the guy in United next season.
Jose didn't go to Zagreb on holiday and he couldn't have gone to watch Peresic who wasn't playing and who you will scratch your head to place in the current United squad.
Brozovic is more like it. Traditionally a central midfielder who can move easily from box to box but is so versatile, he can play across the midfield. He works hard, is 24 and has been one of Inter's and Croatia's most important player. He's been chased by the biggest names in Europe for a while now. He'll be a good buy.
We need a deep lying playmaker, not another workhorse, we have Herrera for that. We need either a DM (Fabinho), if we're playing a 2 man midfield or someone to replace Carrick if we're going with a 3.
What? That's like asking if Costa may be available if we sign another CB. Why would signing a CM effect Willian's status at all? He competes for a place with Hazard and Pedro not the midfield players. If anything, Cesc is the one who should be worried.
So if you sign Mbappe, does that take away playing time from Carrick? This is hilarious.
So if you sign Mbappe, does that take away playing time from Carrick? This is hilarious.
"Even if not a like for like, buying further players (apart from goalies, defenders and No.9's) would surely have an impact."
Nope, it's nothing like that because Mbappe is an out and out forward and Carrick is a deep lying midfielder.... and laughing smileys don't make you right, but keep chucking them in... "hilarious".
Nope, it's nothing like that (why do you and the other guy have such a hard problem getting this?). As I and the other United poster said, it's about game time and player who could take time from Willian. Just because Bakayoko isn't a like for like (a point I specifically made), he could still take minutes from him either as an alternative starter or alternative sub.... or is there a law for CFC where you're only allowed to sub a winger with a winger, a CB for a CB?
Some good observations there.
It's a ridiculous point to make and even you have to realize that. United will most likely buy a new CM in the summer. And it will have absolutely no bearing on how much playing time Mhkitaryan/Rashford/Martial have during the season. Unless you're changing your formation to a 4-5-1 with no wingers. I'm sorry but your post made no sense.
I expect him to score another goal against West Brom and win the game for us, only to come on here and read ",BuBUTBUT... he's not a REAL player"
The usual.
The usual.
You're describing a maestro than a traditional play maker.
That's what happened with altered version of total football / possession based football era, where players play more hybrid roles than distinctive traditional roles. Xavi played both maestro & play maker role. For the ease of comparison, Zidane was more pure play maker. He didn't tempo of his team from deep build up. He dictated how his team in offensive phase. @GM K described it well. Some people who didn't understand often see compare Zidane to maestro & saying something like Zidane is overrated & couldn't boss the game is very wrong. Many people also have the wrong impression of Pirlo in their head. Pirlo did carry a bit of maestro role, but he is renowned play maker for his offensive passing all over the place. It's penetrative pass, not just build up to pint the other team back... Pirlo would be wasteful or taking too many touches with his ball usage too. A purer Maestro would like to play more simple & to bossing possession more.
With that in mind, there were games Pogba was playing play making role from deep; not even Lampard role; and people come out complaining about he's played out of position. It's an usual sign if you watch Italian football.
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See how he tried the harder option & wasted possession instead of trying slow down to dictate the tempo with easy options. Not very different from what Pogba tried to do at times. Different style to those of possession based/ altered total football Maestro where attacking as a team means building up to bring the whole team up the pitch. The pass from Pirlo doesn't always an easy one for his teammate to control or win neither.
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Good player but I think Fabinho will make more sense if we're going to buy anyone from Monaco.
Sure seems like Monaco will lose up to 4 players this summer. But they have a good scouting network and Sport Director so I think they'll be fine long term.
So if you sign Mbappe, does that take away playing time from Carrick? This is hilarious.
I understand why you find the idea ridiculous. You have a justifiable reason for that. Obviously, Bakayoko and Willian don't play exactly the same position but they are in some ways contenders for the same space in Chelsea's 3-5-2 formation. In this formation, you have three center halves at the back, two wing backs plus a trio of midfielders anchoring the middle to form the '5' and of course, two strikers or forwards. Conte already has Matic, Fabregas, Pedro, Loftus Cheek, Nathaniel Chalobah, Victor Moses and of course N'Golo Kante at his disposal. He mixes his options a lot depending on how he wants to play. Sometimes he goes for pure steel, sometimes he prefers guile and sometimes he combines steel and guile. Of that midfield trio (outside of the two 'wingers'), his most consistent player is Kante. Willian and Fabregas have had less play than they did last season and the one before. Conte has Pedro who is in good form, therefore, he regularly benches Willian. Bringing in a Bakayoko is potentially a threat (in terms of further cutting down on playing time) to anyone who plays in that midfield trio unless you are one of Conte's 'untouchables' (apparently, Willian is not) because the new man will simply provide an extra option to Conte in the middle three rather than the wingers in the middle. Also, there are rumours that Chelsea might sign a James Rodriguez (especially if Hazard leaves). Willian already wants more time on the pitch. Also, 2018 is a World Cup year and no top player will want to sit on a bench going into that year. I'll be surprised if Willian is in Chelsea next season.
@GM K you quoted that weirdly so I decided to mention you.
You have it totally wrong. We don't play a 3-5-2. We play a 3-4-3. 2 midfielders, 2 wingbacks, 2 forwards and 1 striker. It's almost the same concept as the 3-5-2 in terms of utilizing wingbacks but it's NOT the same. Willian is and has always been a forward/winger. Pedro is even more versatile than him. Pedro, in addition to being able to play LF/RF can also play RWB or LWB. He has done that for us a number of times in the FA Cup this season as well as in the middle of certain matches.
So when you take into consideration that you don't even have the correct formation, you'll see what I'm saying. Bakayoko will only have an effect on the 2 midfielders sitting deep as far as playing time goes. Him being signed has absolutely no effect on Willian's playing time. It's Pedro who's been keeping Willian on the bench. Your point would be plausible if we were in fact playing a 3-5-2 but we aren't.
And no, we're not signing Rodriguez whether Hazard leaves or not. It makes 10 times more sense to go after Sanchez with that money. Whether Willian leaves or not, it won't be because we've signed Bakayoko or any CM.
You have it totally wrong. We don't play a 3-5-2. We play a 3-4-3. 2 midfielders, 2 wingbacks, 2 forwards and 1 striker. It's almost the same concept as the 3-5-2 in terms of utilizing wingbacks but it's NOT the same. Willian is and has always been a forward/winger. Pedro is even more versatile than him. Pedro, in addition to being able to play LF/RF can also play RWB or LWB. He has done that for us a number of times in the FA Cup this season as well as in the middle of certain matches.
So when you take into consideration that you don't even have the correct formation, you'll see what I'm saying. Bakayoko will only have an effect on the 2 midfielders sitting deep as far as playing time goes. Him being signed has absolutely no effect on Willian's playing time. It's Pedro who's been keeping Willian on the bench. Your point would be plausible if we were in fact playing a 3-5-2 but we aren't.
And no, we're not signing Rodriguez whether Hazard leaves or not. It makes 10 times more sense to go after Sanchez with that money. Whether Willian leaves or not, it won't be because we've signed Bakayoko or any CM.
Formation is the key. It is not a dumb idea at all. It's about the extra player providing formation and style options for the manager. If Jose decides to be playing a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-2 constantly, suddenly some players will start to worry a little bit more if other players are bought who fit better into the new formation regardless of the fact that they may be playing different roles in the team.
So if you sign Mbappe, does that take away playing time from Carrick? This is hilarious.
Funny, but it might. What if you buy Mbappe because you want to switch to a 4-4-2 formation and you think Carrick is only useful in a 4-2-3-1 set up for whatever reasons? The key question will be why exactly did you you sign Mbappe?
Sure. If Jose decided to play a 6-3-0 formation tomorrow, even Zlatan would have to fear for his spot, wouldn't he? You're assuming Bakayoko or (insert random new CM signing) somehow has an effect on Willian based on a hypothetical situation where Conte plays a formation that favours less forwards and more midfielders. How about you wait for that change in formation to actually happen before reaching such a conclusion? As I said earlier, we play a 3-4-3 (2 midfielders, 2 wingbacks, 2 forwards on either side of the main striker), not a 3-5-2.
EDIT: @GM K just seen your reply below re: the 3-5-2 vs 3-4-3. I'm out of posts so this is my last reply. For a 3-5-2 to work effectively, you actually need 2 strikers, whether they offer the same threat or not. You need a Costa-Morata/Lukaku/whoever for it to work. Hazard has a free role but so does Pedro. They both roam around the box trying to break down the defense, although more often than not, they're both on the sides of the pitch the formation puts them in.
If you need more evidence that we actually play a 3-4-3 as opposed to a 3-5-2, look no further than our last match against Spurs. Pochettino knew that the perfect foil for a 3-4-3 is a 3-5-2 because it gives you more numbers in midfield and overwhelms the 3-4-3's midfield while matching the threats of the full backs. This is why Spurs were able to large parts of the game and eventually exploit a weakness in defense. It's why Conte should have brought on Fabregas earlier to switch to a 3-5-2 and make up the numbers in midfield. That's a long conversation on its own but you get the idea.
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Thanks for enlightenment but contrary to what experts say, I am personally convinced Chelsea does use a 3-5-2 formation a lot in actual play even though it sets out to play 3-4-3. It's something you see happen a great deal in a 3-4-3 formation when you have a lot of dynamic players in front of the back three. That's one of the things that make Chelsea so dangerous in my opinion. Hazard is key. He looks fixed but in reality, he has a 'free' role and that makes the formation more fluid rather than pegged down. My point about Bakayoko has nothing to do with sharing the exact same role with Willian. I'm saying that every time a new player is brought into the same department in a team, regardless of how their roles are different, the new player always provides the manager with a style, character or formation option.
It is the easiest thing in the world to simplify the interpretation of a player purchase to roles. I get that. But in reality, it's not always that straightforward. Strange how buying Griezzmann may spell the end for Carrick.
Anyway, I do understand your point. Just emphasising how a player purchase can affect different roles within a team.
Well, isn't that what you are doing? Reaching a conclusion without actually knowing what Conte is thinking? Or did you have dinner with him last night, if I may ask? You seem to have a fixed mindset about how buying a player who plays a specific role can only affect other players who play only that role.
We can only discuss based on hypothetical situations since we don't really know what goes on in the head of the managers. Maybe Bakayoko's purchase means a new DNA for the Chelsea midfield. Maybe it means a new emphasis or a new formation. Maybe it means a replacement for Willian or even Costa, who knows? I don't like boxing thinking in football but that's me. Willian already plays less. Getting new midfielders or potential new starters can further affect his playing time. There is nothing silly about the notion from my experience.
I actually think a very smart workhorse with excellent passing range will be perfect to fully unlock Pogba's potential. I am a big Carrick fan but I belong to the group that believes, the current United team needs a Carrick replacement that is different from Carrick.
I think maybe is a cultural wording thing mate, the playmaker has always been the one that builds up the teams attacks and orchestrates the tempo, the maestro or magician is the Zidane type, the one that opens up teams, at least that is how it has always been in my time following football.
So what is going on now? At this rate, he may sign a new extension with Monaco I guess...
Bit of a nothing article, all it says is 'MENs insider' says nothing is done - he wants to play in the CL and Martial's his good friend (posts his tweet where he celebrates Bakayoko's goal vs City) and that means he might join us.
Ugh, I thought we were free of this nonsense..
Meanwhile, his agent has come out and said that Bakayoko has always dreamed of moving to PSG:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4356466/Tiemoue-Bakayoko-dreamed-moving-PSG.html
Bakayoko always said he was a fan of PSG and would like to join Paris, but PSG doesn't seem interested.
Interesting. You'd have thought he'd make a very good long term Matuidi replacement.
Monaco is the new Southampton
Well Matuidi is still here for now and we already have Rabiot as a long term replacement. We're more in need of a new Motta.
Just cost France a goal with a poor pass right outside his own box. Koscielny gave away the penalty but I'd still hold Bakayoko responsible.
Everyone wants to come here - we pay the highest wages. Why would player A go to a club like Arse, Milan, or PSG to earn 90k when they could get 150k here.
Koscielny isnt too unknown to that.
Fabinho > Bakayoko.
I did honestly not notice that he was playing tonight against Spain. And I saw the whole game.
Not so relevant as he didnt start, didnt you see him coming on?
Nah, must have been around the second spanish goal which I also missed when I went outside a few minutes.
Edit - just checked, it wasn't. Still, no idea.
I don't watch too much of PSG, but do you reckon Rabiot can be turned into a CDM? From the little I've seen of him, I feel like he's technically good enough, but perhaps doesn't have the agility and engine to play as a box to box.
Fair enough. If he were only interested in wages, he could earn very similar amounts at Chelsea. But, in this case it sounds more like he's a PSG fan rather than him being interested in money. Saying that, I reckon we'll get him, if Mourinho does really want him.
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