Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?

[VP89]

He would struggle to find a worse club if his ambitions are progression in the league, though. It’s almost impossible to improve the team consistently at Brighton. I’m not that aware of their targets, but which did he push that failed? If he was able to get the players he wanted that would suggest they aren’t that well run, as I’m sure you’d agree.

They are extremely well run, and a club like Brighton was certainly the right place for him. He can have all the ambition he wants but he needs to align it with the club. He knew the model of the club before he joined, and he threw his toys out the pram 18 months in. De Zerbi isn't Ancelotti or Conte coming into the Premier League to make demands like this.

De Zerbi according to athletic wanted more players that were established, more expensive and ultimately didn't fit Blooms model of transfers. Out of their transfers Bloom reluctantly sanctioned two de Zerbi picks (going against his normal model) and neither worked out in Fati and Dahoud.

Fast forward to January, bloom doesn't want to panic and prefers to trust his methods (why not, the transfers he's brought in have proven to be good enough for top 4 clubs let alone top 6). But De Zerbi was impatient.

My gripe isnt de Zerbi impatience but his stupidity to openly bitch about Bloom in press conferences. It's an idiot move and a red flag. It's no surprise he got sacked.

 

[Dec9003]

They are extremely well run, and a club like Brighton was certainly the right place for him. He can have all the ambition he wants but he needs to align it with the club. He knew the model of the club before he joined, and he threw his toys out the pram 18 months in. De Zerbi isn't Ancelotti or Conte coming into the Premier League to make demands like this.

De Zerbi according to athletic wanted more players that were established, more expensive and ultimately didn't fit Blooms model of transfers. Out of their transfers Bloom reluctantly sanctioned two de Zerbi picks (going against his normal model) and neither worked out in Fati and Dahoud.

Fast forward to January, bloom doesn't want to panic and prefers to trust his methods (why not, the transfers he's brought in have proven to be good enough for top 4 clubs let alone top 6). But De Zerbi was impatient.

My gripe isnt de Zerbi impatience but his stupidity to openly bitch about Bloom in press conferences. It's an idiot move and a red flag. It's no surprise he got sacked.

Weren’t Fati and Dahoud a loan and free transfer though? It again seems harsh to say De Zerbi made poor choices to go after them (if they were his picks, over the clubs that is) to say they weren’t cheap is only fair if you’re saying they weren’t cheap because they didn’t cost anything. His ambitions didn’t align with Brighton, because the job he did there likely opened himself up to better offers, we will see if he ends up at a top club, if he does then he will have benefited from Brighton and from his exit.

 

[romufc]

Simply wrong.
Look at how Chelsea played under Lampard and then look how they played when Tuchel took over.

Yes, Chelsea finished top 4 with Lampard, was sacked Tuchel came in and won a CL.. something that Di Matteo also did in similar fashion.

Chelsea did not play well the following season where they were 19 points of top. He then started his 2nd full season poorly and got sacked.

 

[romufc]

Mainz… no chance.
Dortmund… difficult.
PSG… easy.
Chelsea… difficult.

He did a pretty decent job with taking a Chelsea side without a ton of talent to 3rd and the CL title.

Look, everyone wants to find the next SAF, Ancelotti, or Pep. But bringing in a competent manager that allows you to finish top 4 every year, guarantee that extra CL money (60-80m) for squad building — particularly more speculative buys of younger players in South America and less scouted regions — is actually smarter than finishing 8th three years in a row while you go dumpster diving for squad building needs.

Just my opinion.

Actually, Dortmund was hard? Let me remind you something.

Klopp won the league with the Dortmund team and finished 2nd, Tuchel came in and did not improve it, actually made it worse. Ofcourse no one will bring that up.

Chelsea side without talent? That summer they spent over 250m with a squad of:

Rudiger - Probably one of the best CB atm
James - One of the best RB's
Kante - one of the best DM's
Thiago Silva
Chilwel
Mount
Havertz
Werner

But yeah keep your narrative running.

 

[saivet]

Actually, Dortmund was hard? Let me remind you something.

Klopp won the league with the Dortmund team and finished 2nd, Tuchel came in and did not improve it, actually made it worse. Ofcourse no one will bring that up.

Chelsea side without talent? That summer they spent over 250m with a squad of:

Rudiger - Probably one of the best CB atm
James - One of the best RB's
Kante - one of the best DM's
Thiago Silva
Chilwel
Mount
Havertz
Werner

But yeah keep your narrative running.

He came straight after Klopp, Dortmund had a terrible final season with Klopp and finished 7th in the Bundesliga. Dortmund lost Gotze and Lewandowski to Bayern in the two summers prior to Tuchel taking over.

 

[romufc]

He came straight after Klopp, Dortmund had a terrible final season with Klopp and finished 7th in the Bundesliga. Dortmund lost Gotze and Lewandowski to Bayern in the two summers prior to Tuchel taking over.

So they lost players when Klopp was in charge not Tuchel. It was a bad season from Klopp which is why he left, Tuchel did nothing really at Dortmund, nothing different to any other manager post Tuchel has done either.

Also, Dortmund spent 141m on players for Tuchel to finish 3rd so dont say he has done well in a hard job at Dortmund, he did worse than Klopp because Klopp won 2 titles.

 

[Lyng]

Yes, Chelsea finished top 4 with Lampard, was sacked Tuchel came in and won a CL.. something that Di Matteo also did in similar fashion.

Chelsea did not play well the following season where they were 19 points of top. He then started his 2nd full season poorly and got sacked.

Chelsea where getting destroyed under Lampard before Tuchel came in. Their midfield was completely messed up and got turned around by Tuchel.
The only reason it went bad was because of Boehly ruining the club structure when he arrived.

Also on Dortmund they where absolutely awful under Klopp in his last season. Tuchel came in and managed to turn it around before they sold their best players under him and not signing even close to that quality.

 

[romufc]

Chelsea where getting destroyed under Lampard before Tuchel came in. Their midfield was completely messed up and got turned around by Tuchel.
The only reason it went bad was because of Boehly ruining the club structure when he arrived.

Also on Dortmund they where absolutely awful under Klopp in his last season. Tuchel came in and managed to turn it around before they sold their best players under him and not signing even close to that quality.

Lampard finished 4th and then got 250m to spend, couldn't hack it and Tuchel came in, Tuchel highest league campaign was 3rd.

So you believe a poor structure has an impact on the manager?

Yeah agreed which is why he got sacked, dont forget they won the league under Klopp and were finishing 1st 1st 2nd 2nd... again the best players were sold under Klopp, go have a look. Tuchel got 141m to spend, so this notion that he didnt get quality in is false.

Ousmane Dembele, Goetze, Shurrle were all signed for big money.

 

[Smores]

Lampard finished 4th and then got 250m to spend, couldn't hack it and Tuchel came in, Tuchel highest league campaign was 3rd.

So you believe a poor structure has an impact on the manager?

Yeah agreed which is why he got sacked, dont forget they won the league under Klopp and were finishing 1st 1st 2nd 2nd... again the best players were sold under Klopp, go have a look. Tuchel got 141m to spend, so this notion that he didnt get quality in is false.

Ousmane Dembele, Goetze, Shurrle were all signed for big money.

I read earlier you saying the only way we can win a title is keeping Ten Hag who just finished 8th. Then you come in here and hyper criticise someone who actually has turned clubs around and has won major titles.

It's a bit unhinged how someone can be so bias. Do you actually think you're objectively judging the two managers here?

 

[romufc]

I read earlier you saying the only way we can win a title is keeping Ten Hag who just finished 8th. Then you come in here and hyper criticise someone who actually has turned clubs around and has won major titles.

It's a bit unhinged how someone can be so bias. Do you actually think you're objectively judging the two managers here?

Tuchel has not turned clubs around. Winning the CL with Chelsea is on par with Di Matteo winning it for them, do you think he is someone we should hire because he has won major title?

Tuchel has done nothing more than average to below average at Dortmund, PSG, Bayern. Yes he won a CL at Chelsea joining 1/2 way through a season.. what did he do the season after or after that?

 

[Lyng]

Lampard finished 4th and then got 250m to spend, couldn't hack it and Tuchel came in, Tuchel highest league campaign was 3rd.

So you believe a poor structure has an impact on the manager?

Yeah agreed which is why he got sacked, dont forget they won the league under Klopp and were finishing 1st 1st 2nd 2nd... again the best players were sold under Klopp, go have a look. Tuchel got 141m to spend, so this notion that he didnt get quality in is false.

Ousmane Dembele, Goetze, Shurrle were all signed for big money.

141 pales in comparison to what Ten Hag was given. Yet he has managed to have us ending in 8th place.
Given that you seem to disregard Tuchels Champions League win we can safely disregard the FA Cup win under Ten Hag.
Oh and where did Chelsea end after sacking Tuchel?

 

[romufc]

141 pales in comparison to what Ten Hag was given. Yet he has managed to have us ending in 8th place.
Given that you seem to disregard Tuchels Champions League win we can safely disregard the FA Cup win under Ten Hag.
Oh and where did Chelsea end after sacking Tuchel?

I am not disregarding his CL, he done really well to win it but so did Di Matteo in similar circumstances.

You can disregard the FA cup. I have not claimed he had a good season, like you are saying Tuchel is amazing.

Tuchel was given 300m in the summer and then got sacked after poor start. Tuchel has shown no evidence that he can take a team improve them and challenge for the league. Instead he has shown the opposite really, taking over Bayern and getting them to decline.

Tuchel took over Bayern with 8 games to go, spent 187m to come third. Its a clear pattern, Tuchel is a very very good manager taking over half way though a season, relying on new manager bounce because in his 1st full season, he has done nothing special at any club.

 

[Swango1980]

No Thanks

Borussia Dortmund: Sacked after 2 seasons, after being called a difficult person to work with

PSG: Clubs hierarchy said he needs to be more respectful and his comments damaged the club. Leaves after 3 seasons

Chelsea: Boehly describes him as a nightmare to work with, and have heard other concerning rumours of his actions behind the scenes

Bayern: Pretty much gets the boot halfway through his first full season

For me, this is not the sort of character I want as manager. The sort of manager who ends up making all the (negative) headlines, and it all becomes about him. A manager that is, more than likely, going to get the sack in a year or 2, simply because he is a nightmare for anyone to actually get on with.

 

[Lyng]

I am not disregarding his CL, he done really well to win it but so did Di Matteo in similar circumstances.

You can disregard the FA cup. I have not claimed he had a good season, like you are saying Tuchel is amazing.

Tuchel was given 300m in the summer and then got sacked after poor start. Tuchel has shown no evidence that he can take a team improve them and challenge for the league. Instead he has shown the opposite really, taking over Bayern and getting them to decline.

Tuchel took over Bayern with 8 games to go, spent 187m to come third. Its a clear pattern, Tuchel is a very very good manager taking over half way though a season, relying on new manager bounce because in his 1st full season, he has done nothing special at any club.

I never said Tuchel was amazing. But looking at his body of work he has won much bigger titles than Ten Hag and turned several teams around.
You say he doesn't improve but actually Bayern had a higher points total this season than last. A amount of points that would have been enough to win the league the past ten years.
There are simply two teams that have had absolute freak seasons.

There are several managers I would prefer to Tuchel, but I still rate him much higher than Ten Hag given how much we have fallen from a cliff this season, and how dire our football has been. At the very least we wouldn't have 20+ shots on our goal each match under a Tuchel.

 

[romufc]

I never said Tuchel was amazing. But looking at his body of work he has won much bigger titles than Ten Hag and turned several teams around.
You say he doesn't improve but actually Bayern had a higher points total this season than last. A amount of points that would have been enough to win the league the past ten years.
There are simply two teams that have had absolute freak seasons.

There are several managers I would prefer to Tuchel, but I still rate him much higher than Ten Hag given how much we have fallen from a cliff this season, and how dire our football has been. At the very least we wouldn't have 20+ shots on our goal each match under a Tuchel.

Oooo he got a higher points total, what did he win? He finished 3rd. Its not about beating your points tally from previous season, its about beating the team infront in the current season.

Tuchel in his career has only shown he can turn teams around when he joins half way through a season... its called new manager bounce.

Look I am not against sacking Ten Hag but most definitely not for Tuchel.

Its also hypocritical to give Tuchel a bye by saying other 2 are freaks but not taking into consideration the injuries we have had?

At Dortmund half way through and rescued the season
At Chelsea half way through and won CL
At Bayern 8 games to go and won the title


Every first full season, where he was backed with money, did nothing in that season finishing 3rd.

So no, I dont see this body of work.

Ten Hag, before this season has done well previously, he built 2 different teams at Ajax, after losing his best players too.

Tuchel may get us facing 10 shots per game but he will play dire boring football, wont integrate youth and has a maximum 2 year spell in him. He will do better than 8th but lets not act as if he is going to get us challenging because there is 0 evidence he can do that.

 

[Pintu]

I am not disregarding his CL, he done really well to win it but so did Di Matteo in similar circumstances.

You can disregard the FA cup. I have not claimed he had a good season, like you are saying Tuchel is amazing.

Tuchel was given 300m in the summer and then got sacked after poor start. Tuchel has shown no evidence that he can take a team improve them and challenge for the league. Instead he has shown the opposite really, taking over Bayern and getting them to decline.

Tuchel took over Bayern with 8 games to go, spent 187m to come third. Its a clear pattern, Tuchel is a very very good manager taking over half way though a season, relying on new manager bounce because in his 1st full season, he has done nothing special at any club.

He won the CL at Chelsea and he took PSG to their first semifinal in 30 years, also their first ever final… Ha has consistently got his clubs very high points tallys in the leagues.

 

[romufc]

He won the CL at Chelsea and he took PSG to their first semifinal in 30 years, also their first ever final… Ha has consistently got his clubs very high points tallys in the leagues.

So he is a cup manager... I thought we want to challenge for the league?

High points tally? He finished 19 points of the winners in his full season at Chelsea, 18 points behind the winners this campaign.

He has not shown any evidence that he can take a team like Manutd, in their position and challenge. He has a shelf life of 2 years until he explodes and falls out with the owners. Its his history.

 

[Lyng]

Oooo he got a higher points total, what did he win? He finished 3rd. Its not about beating your points tally from previous season, its about beating the team infront in the current season.

Tuchel in his career has only shown he can turn teams around when he joins half way through a season... its called new manager bounce.

Look I am not against sacking Ten Hag but most definitely not for Tuchel.

Its also hypocritical to give Tuchel a bye by saying other 2 are freaks but not taking into consideration the injuries we have had?

At Dortmund half way through and rescued the season
At Chelsea half way through and won CL
At Bayern 8 games to go and won the title


Every first full season, where he was backed with money, did nothing in that season finishing 3rd.

So no, I dont see this body of work.

Ten Hag, before this season has done well previously, he built 2 different teams at Ajax, after losing his best players too.

Tuchel may get us facing 10 shots per game but he will play dire boring football, wont integrate youth and has a maximum 2 year spell in him. He will do better than 8th but lets not act as if he is going to get us challenging because there is 0 evidence he can do that.

Ten Hag won a one team league. It's akin to Tuchel winning with Paris.

No football under Tuchel has ever been as dire as the chaos ping pong this season under Ten Hag

 

[stefan92]

At Dortmund half way through and rescued the season

Please get at least your facts right when you want to discuss. Tuchel joined in the summer, not half way through. He then took Dortmund to their second highest points total ever, but obviously that wasn't enough against Bayern with Pep as manager in their absolute prime. In his second season he finished worse in the league but won the cup. In a season in which someone literally tried to kill him and the team.

 

[romufc]

Ten Hag won a one team league. It's akin to Tuchel winning with Paris.

No football under Tuchel has ever been as dire as the chaos ping pong this season under Ten Hag

Agreed, its the same, which is a concern.

We can go around in circles, I just dont want to see Tuchel at United because unless he is going to win us the league, we will be here looking for another manager in 2 years.

I rather us sort our structure out, find the right style we want to play, how we want to approach transfers then get a manager to suit.

 

[romufc]

Please get at least your facts right when you want to discuss. Tuchel joined in the summer, not half way through. He then took Dortmund to their second highest points total ever, but obviously that wasn't enough against Bayern with Pep as manager in their absolute prime. In his second season he finished worse in the league but won the cup. In a season in which someone literally tried to kill him and the team.

Sorry in which season are you saying Tuchel joined in the summer? Dortmund? Okay fine he joined in the summer after a terrible season and wow he got the highest points total, he deserves a league title. He was still 10 points off the title. 19 points last season too.

So he has been 2nd in Germany due to Pep in his prime and freak seasons by inexperienced managers, so he clearly isnt a great manager is he? He cant compete against inexperienced managers with a top Bayern team.

 

[stefan92]

So he has been 2nd in Germany due to Pep in his prime and freak seasons by inexperienced managers, so he clearly isnt a great manager is he? He cant compete against inexperienced managers with a top Bayern team.

If you call this a "top Bayern team" you just don't look closely enough at them. Both clubs who finished ahead of Bayern this season had far better balanced squads than Bayern. I don't think Tuchel did great in this season, but he managed a complete mess of a squad to keep challenging an extremely well built squad (until they lost the direct duel and knew there was no way for them to come back) and got into a CL semifinal. That's still a decent performance.

 

[romufc]

If you call this a "top Bayern team" you just don't look closely enough at them. Both clubs who finished ahead of Bayern this season had far better balanced squads than Bayern. I don't think Tuchel did great in this season, but he managed a complete mess of a squad to keep challenging an extremely well built squad (until they lost the direct duel and knew there was no way for them to come back) and got into a CL semifinal. That's still a decent performance.

Oh yeah its not a top team.

Harry Kane - One of the best ST in the world
Neur - One of the best Keepers in the world
Kim / De Ligt / Upamecano - Some of the best CB's, everyone on Caf was screaming for Kim last season.
Kimmich - One of the most intellegent footballers
Musiala - one of the best youngsters in the world on par with Bellingham and the like

I mean he didnt challenge, he was 19 points of a title.

I'd swap the Bayern squad for the United one in a heartbeat.

 

[roonster09]

If you call this a "top Bayern team" you just don't look closely enough at them. Both clubs who finished ahead of Bayern this season had far better balanced squads than Bayern. I don't think Tuchel did great in this season, but he managed a complete mess of a squad to keep challenging an extremely well built squad (until they lost the direct duel and knew there was no way for them to come back) and got into a CL semifinal. That's still a decent performance.

fecking hell, entire tone of the post and arguments change based on whether the poster likes the manager or don't like.

 

[Lash]

Agreed, its the same, which is a concern.

We can go around in circles, I just dont want to see Tuchel at United because unless he is going to win us the league, we will be here looking for another manager in 2 years.

I rather us sort our structure out, find the right style we want to play, how we want to approach transfers then get a manager to suit.

How do you not know this has happened and Tuchel is the manager that suits all of those things? Why would De Zerbi, Mckenna, Poch, Southgate, etc be better choices than Tuchel? If you look at pretty much all the available options to us, if you want to win the league, he's you're best bet.

 

[romufc]

How do you not know this has happened and Tuchel is the manager that suits all of those things? Why would De Zerbi, Mckenna, Poch, Southgate, etc be better choices than Tuchel? If you look at pretty much all the available options to us, if you want to win the league, he's you're best bet.

Because I am told let the structure be set in place. I mean I know because of the reports coming out in terms of how they want to do business.

Younger players, young manager, possession based, all are opposite to Tuchel.

Tuchel is not our best bet to win a league, he has only won 1 title where he has been manager from the start of the season, at PSG. Tuchel has not shown he can win a league in a league where more than 1 team competes. This season he lost to 2 inexperienced managers. At Chelsea he was 19 points of the top.

The thing is, I dont think any of those choices are great to win the league.

 

[JPRouve]

If you call this a "top Bayern team" you just don't look closely enough at them. Both clubs who finished ahead of Bayern this season had far better balanced squads than Bayern. I don't think Tuchel did great in this season, but he managed a complete mess of a squad to keep challenging an extremely well built squad (until they lost the direct duel and knew there was no way for them to come back) and got into a CL semifinal. That's still a decent performance.

Bayern are a top team the issue is that that top team isn't all that top when 3 or 4 out of Neuer, Musiala, Coman, Gnabry, Sané, Mazraoui or De Ligt are out at the same time. But to me the key point would be that while in ideal circumstances Bayern could and should do better, circumstances weren't ideal and they still managed to reach the CL semi finals and were competitive but they also gained more points than last season and they had better advanced stats.

 

[JPRouve]

Because I am told let the structure be set in place. I mean I know because of the reports coming out in terms of how they want to do business.

Younger players, young manager, possession based, all are opposite to Tuchel.

Tuchel is not our best bet to win a league, he has only won 1 title where he has been manager from the start of the season, at PSG. Tuchel has not shown he can win a league in a league where more than 1 team competes. This season he lost to 2 inexperienced managers. At Chelsea he was 19 points of the top.

The thing is, I dont think any of those choices are great to win the league.

Tuchel has always used young players and introduced them to the first team, his career outside of Chelsea has been built around a possession based style and 50 isn't old nor is it young so you can have that one.

 

[Lash]

Because I am told let the structure be set in place. I mean I know because of the reports coming out in terms of how they want to do business.

Younger players, young manager, possession based, all are opposite to Tuchel.

Tuchel is not our best bet to win a league, he has only won 1 title where he has been manager from the start of the season, at PSG. Tuchel has not shown he can win a league in a league where more than 1 team competes. This season he lost to 2 inexperienced managers. At Chelsea he was 19 points of the top.

The thing is, I dont think any of those choices are great to win the league.

"Younger players, young manager, possession based" is in no way correlated to to success though. He actually has had success and managed younger players well. His age shouldn't be a factor.

Of the suggested options, he is. He has made a teams compete at the top level better than any other manager we could get. If your criteria for our manager is they have to have won a top league where more than 1 team competes, you're never going to find anyone you're happy with.

Exactly, I don't think there are stand out candidates, but if there is one out of those we've been linked with - it's Tuchel.

 

[romufc]

Tuchel has always used young players and introduced them to the first team, his career outside of Chelsea has been built around a possession based style and 50 isn't old nor is it young so you can have that one.

Can you name players he has introduced in teams who have had consistent game play? Chalobah at Chelsea who else?

 

[stefan92]

Oh yeah its not a top team.

Harry Kane - One of the best ST in the world
Neur - One of the best Keepers in the world
Kim / De Ligt / Upamecano - Some of the best CB's, everyone on Caf was screaming for Kim last season.
Kimmich - One of the most intellegent footballers
Musiala - one of the best youngsters in the world on par with Bellingham and the like

I mean he didnt challenge, he was 19 points of a title.

I'd swap the Bayern squad for the United one in a heartbeat.

Kane - yes
Neuer - was injured for a long time and had to come back. Ulreich had to play a lot of matches and even when Neuer returned he wasn't at his best
Kim and Upamecano made so many hilarious individual mistakes that you have to be happy that you didn't get Kim. De Ligt was often injured
Kimmich - completely overmotivated and undisciplined in the center. Much better as an RB, but that became only possible later in the season after Pavlovic became a starter and Dier arrived (so that Goretzka didn't have to fill in as makeshift CB)
Musiala - yes

Swapping the squad with United? Maybe, but I would rather combine the two squads into one well balanced squad.

I don't know to what you are referring with 19 points, Bayern finished 18 points behind Leverkusen? If you are talking about this season, I said they were challenging until the direct duel in Leverkusen (if Bayern had won that, they would have taken the lead). They visibly lost belief when they couldn't stop Leverkusen and the huge gap opened only after that (which as I said is clearly not a great season from Bayern/Tuchel)

 

[romufc]

"Younger players, young manager, possession based" is in no way correlated to to success though. He actually has had success and managed younger players well. His age shouldn't be a factor.

Of the suggested options, he is. He has made a teams compete at the top level better than any other manager we could get. If your criteria for our manager is they have to have won a top league where more than 1 team competes, you're never going to find anyone you're happy with.

Exactly, I don't think there are stand out candidates, but if there is one out of those we've been linked with - it's Tuchel.

Can you show evidence of him promoting youth and had success?

What teams has he made compete better than any other manager? Klopp won 2 titles and finished 2nd twice then impoded, Tuchel then finished 2nd 3rd, so did worse than Klopp.

He won UCL at Chelsea coming in half way through and playing on the new manager bounce.

Look at Alonso and Stuttgart manager for example, those are what you call managers that compete at top level to another manager because those teams were mid table, Stuttgart were 16th then came 2nd, Leverkusen were 6th then won it.

Show me evidence where Tuchel has taken a team in a FULL season and competed where he had no right to?

 

[romufc]

Kane - yes
Neuer - was injured for a long time and had to come back. Ulreich had to play a lot of matches and even when Neuer returned he wasn't at his best
Kim and Upamecano made so many hilarious individual mistakes that you have to be happy that you didn't get Kim. De Ligt was often injured
Kimmich - completely overmotivated and undisciplined in the center. Much better as an RB, but that became only possible later in the season after Pavlovic became a starter and Dier arrived (so that Goretzka didn't have to fill in as makeshift CB)
Musiala - yes

Swapping the squad with United? Maybe, but I would rather combine the two squads into one well balanced squad.

I don't know to what you are referring with 19 points, Bayern finished 18 points behind Leverkusen? If you are talking about this season, I said they were challenging until the direct duel in Leverkusen (if Bayern had won that, they would have taken the lead). They visibly lost belief when they couldn't stop Leverkusen and the huge gap opened only after that (which as I said is clearly not a great season from Bayern/Tuchel)

Well this goes to show Tuchel's poor mentality, lose a game in a tight race and wheels fall apart, how can you lose motivation after 1 defeat?

Its fine to give Tuchel a bye for not having a great season but he should replace a man who had a poor season too?

 

[JPRouve]

Can you name players he has introduced in teams who have had consistent game play? Chalobah at Chelsea who else?

Weigl, Isak, Pulisic, Passlack, Mor, Sancho, Dagba, Nianzou, Diaby, N'soki, Bakker, Pembélé or Pavlovic. And that's ignoring the likes of Dembélé, Nkunku, Tel, Dahoud, Ginter, Guerreiro and many others who were young players that he was happy to heavily rely on. I pay les attention to Chelsea so there could be a few to add or not.

 

[Lash]

Can you show evidence of him promoting youth and had success?

What teams has he made compete better than any other manager? Klopp won 2 titles and finished 2nd twice then impoded, Tuchel then finished 2nd 3rd, so did worse than Klopp.

He won UCL at Chelsea coming in half way through and playing on the new manager bounce.

Look at Alonso and Stuttgart manager for example, those are what you call managers that compete at top level to another manager because those teams were mid table, Stuttgart were 16th then came 2nd, Leverkusen were 6th then won it.

Show me evidence where Tuchel has taken a team in a FULL season and competed where he had no right to?

Yep, but not my words, a Chelsea fans:

He's consistently been excellent for his entire career - Nkunku, Diaby, Kimpembe, and Rabiot all featured regularly for him. At Chelsea he was instrumental in taking the likes of Mount, James, and RLC to the next level - he also gave Chalobah his debut.

It was absolutely comical that we appointed Potter supposedly because of his record with youth - when it actually doesn't compare to what Tuchel has done.

Again, if you're expecting a manger to win leagues at every team he's managed, also promote youth and be young, you're filtering your options to zero.

So he kept Dortmund competitive, despite losing a player like Lewandowski to their league rivals, who proceeded to 238 goals in 253 for them?

So we're just going to attribute nothing to him when he's had success, cool.

I imagine you just don't care about what he did with PSG, so I won't bother.

Alonso is obviously a good manager, but he is a unicorn and unobtainable. He also got his arse handed to him by Gasperini in a final, so he's not omnipotent. If you want Hoeness, then cool, seems very much like recency bias.

Why do I need to show you evidence where he's had not right to compete but does? We're not a minnow, we have every right to compete for the highest honours. If you take the Dortmund example, if he led us to 2nd and 3rd in the next two seasons, that would be fantastic.

 

[stefan92]

Well this goes to show Tuchel's poor mentality, lose a game in a tight race and wheels fall apart, how can you lose motivation after 1 defeat?

Its fine to give Tuchel a bye for not having a great season but he should replace a man who had a poor season too?

Considering that Tuchel was furious with his team I don't think you can question Tuchel's mentality about this, but more his team. I think it's fair to ask questions about his motivation skills in this case, but not about his mentality.

And considering that Bayern was quite unlucky in many matches in most seasons they would have won the league, even against this Leverkusen team (which was lucky to get as many points as they did) I do rate this Bayern season far above United's season. United was lucky to finish as well as they did.

 

[romufc]

Yep, but not my words, a Chelsea fans:



Again, if you're expecting a manger to win leagues at every team he's managed, also promote youth and be young, you're filtering your options to zero.

So he kept Dortmund competitive, despite losing a player like Lewandowski to their league rivals, who proceeded to 238 goals in 253 for them?

So we're just going to attribute nothing to him when he's had success, cool.

I imagine you just don't care about what he did with PSG, so I won't bother.

Alonso is obviously a good manager, but he is a unicorn and unobtainable. He also got his arse handed to him by Gasperini in a final, so he's not omnipotent. If you want Hoeness, then cool, seems very much like recency bias.

Why do I need to show you evidence where he's had not right to compete but does? We're not a minnow, we have every right to compete for the highest honours. If you take the Dortmund example, if he led us to 2nd and 3rd in the next two seasons, that would be fantastic.
[/QUOTE]

No, I am not saying we need a manager who has done that. We can either go for experience (Tuchel) or young up and coming managers, neither are any good at the moment.

I have already said, Tuchel is a very very good manager to get new manager bounce, he has great ability to take over half way through a season and save a season, he cant start a season and challenge.

Hoeness, Alonso are all good names but only have 1 season to show for it, we need more data on them.

We are not a big club either, we have not competed for a league title in 11 years, we dont have a right to just compete with no structure, no foresight. Tuchel may get you 2nd and then 5th which is poor because its what Ten Hag has done, got us 3rd and 8th.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

No, I am not saying we need a manager who has done that. We can either go for experience (Tuchel) or young up and coming managers, neither are any good at the moment.

I have already said, Tuchel is a very very good manager to get new manager bounce, he has great ability to take over half way through a season and save a season, he cant start a season and challenge.

Hoeness, Alonso are all good names but only have 1 season to show for it, we need more data on them.

We are not a big club either, we have not competed for a league title in 11 years, we dont have a right to just compete with no structure, no foresight. Tuchel may get you 2nd and then 5th which is poor because its what Ten Hag has done, got us 3rd and 8th.

I don't think it's remotely correct to say that Tuchel is incapable of challenging for the league - we were there or thereabouts in his first full season post-CL until everything got completely derailed by the club being sanctioned. And on top of that, we were desperately unlucky to not put Madrid out and were probably the better side over both legs. Tuchel made it to literally every single cup final he could during his time at Chelsea bar that second CL where we went out in the quarters to the eventual winners unluckily.

It's utterly baffling to me that United fans have managed to convince themselves that he isn't a colossal upgrade. I personally desperately hope you don't do it.

 

[romufc]

I don't think it's remotely correct to say that Tuchel is incapable of challenging for the league - we were there or thereabouts in his first full season post-CL until everything got completely derailed by the club being sanctioned. And on top of that, we were desperately unlucky to not put Madrid out and were probably the better side over both legs. Tuchel made it to literally every single cup final he could during his time at Chelsea bar that second CL where we went out in the quarters to the eventual winners unluckily.

It's utterly baffling to me that United fans have managed to convince themselves that he isn't a colossal upgrade. I personally desperately hope you don't do it.

Tuchel is a cup manager, I dont think I dispute that. The issue is United fans are here talking about league positions.

You say Chelsea were there or thereabouts until sanctions which came in March 22. Chelsea were 15 points of top with 11 games to go and 12 points of 2nd. Infact you were more in a top 4 battle with Manutd 4 points of Chelsea in 6th.

So this narrative that Tuchel challenged for the title is utter crap and false, he was more in a top 4 battle because Chelsea before sanctions hit were closer to 8th than top.

Its not baffling because he isnt an upgrade. He is a good cup manager but a very inconsistent league manager who has a max span of 2 years before he blows up.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Tuchel is a cup manager, I dont think I dispute that. The issue is United fans are here talking about league positions.

You say Chelsea were there or thereabouts until sanctions which came in March 22. Chelsea were 15 points of top with 11 games to go and 12 points of 2nd. Infact you were more in a top 4 battle with Manutd 4 points of Chelsea in 6th.

So this narrative that Tuchel challenged for the title is utter crap and false, he was more in a top 4 battle because Chelsea before sanctions hit were closer to 8th than top.

Its not baffling because he isnt an upgrade. He is a good cup manager but a very inconsistent league manager who has a max span of 2 years before he blows up.

Sorry, got my timeline mixed up. We were competing at the top at the turn of the year, then were beset by the most injuries in the entire league plus the war/sanctions plus Lukaku throwing a fit.

I take your point that you don't trust him with regard to league results (personally during his time at Chelsea I'd blame that more on our lack of a goal threat more than anything Tuchel did) - but I don't see how at the very minimum he isn't marginally better than EtH in the league and comfortably better in cups?

Also if you want to install a structure of accountability and if you want someone to vet the intelligence of director hires, Tuchel is also a no brainer.