This Isn't A Bad Squad

[Siorac]

How many players on our awesome squad would walk into the first teams of Arsenal, Chelsea or City, this season?

In my head I can think of RVP, Rooney, DDG, Vidic. Maybe, maybe Hernandez, Carrick, Januzaj, Jones. 2 of the definite starters are injured, one isn't playing every game.

And how many players would you want from Arsenal or Chelsea? How many of them would definitely improve us? At best three or four in most cases. Only one in case of Liverpool and he plays in the position we're the strongest in.

We have good players playing badly. Others have players of similar quality playing well.

 

[Loon]

If the newspapers are to be believed today, our squad is a quantum leap behind the top three and comparative with Liverpool's (yes, Paul Hayward wrote this in the Telegraph). This is the same (under-fire) Arsenal squad from last year with just one expensive addition and a player who has finally found form.

However, in the eyes of Mr. Hayward, the whole United team needs a Souness-type firesale.

It's the midfield. It's the midfield. It's the midfield. A United side capable of competing in midfield would make a world of difference.

 

[Name Changed]

It is not a bad squad at all, it's a decent squad. There aren't enough top quality players though. We have too many squad players who wouldn't get a look in our biggest rival's teams. And then our most important players all seem to be injury prone. It's not rocket science, the squad really does need to be improved significantly for us to compete now with the likes of Chelsea and City. They are improving year upon year. We need to do the same.

 

[finneh]

It isnt a "really good squad" if you need three "quality additions" - that's a third of your first XI.

To me the fact that his parting shot was to "get behind the manager at all costs" and to give him time tells me he knew the size of the job in hand.

If you read the post - It needs two or three quality additions to be a great squad. It is already a really good squad. If we bought Coentrao and Fernandinho this Summer for instance we'd have a great squad.

The "get behind your manager at all costs" speech was because Fergie realises how fickle fans are nowadays. Hell in 2005 there were whispers of fan unrest with Fergie!

Anyone who thinks Fergie is the kind of character to walk away with a shit squad, giving a poison chalice to his successor (and friend) is bonkers in my opinion.

 

[Name Changed]

If you read the post - It needs two or three quality additions to be a great squad. It is already a really good squad. If we bought Coentrao and Fernandinho this Summer for instance we'd have a great squad.

The "get behind your manager at all costs" speech was because Fergie realises how fickle fans are nowadays. Hell in 2005 there were whispers of fan unrest with Fergie!

Anyone who thinks Fergie is the kind of character to walk away with a shit squad, giving a poison chalice to his successor (and friend) is bonkers in my opinion.

Ferguson must have known the weaknesses in that squad/team unless he was totally blind. Even though he didn't rectify it, he must have seen the deficiences in midfield, he must have realised that our 3 senior defenders were seriously struggling, he must have seen how one dimensional our wingers were. Ferguson adapted our game over the last couple of years and played a lot tighter, and lot more defensively. The swash-buckling attacking was long gone by last season. Of course Ferguson knew what he was leaving.

He probably presumed Moyes would rectify a couple of the problems though.

It is not a really good squad by the way. It's good, but it certainly isn't really good. There is too much deadwood. Three quality players would make a huge difference though. Fernandinho, as you mentioned, would have been an excellent addition for example. That would have given us something in midfield.

 

[Adebesi]

If you read the post - It needs two or three quality additions to be a great squad. It is already a really good squad. If we bought Coentrao and Fernandinho this Summer for instance we'd have a great squad.

The "get behind your manager at all costs" speech was because Fergie realises how fickle fans are nowadays. Hell in 2005 there were whispers of fan unrest with Fergie!

Anyone who thinks Fergie is the kind of character to walk away with a shit squad, giving a poison chalice to his successor (and friend) is bonkers in my opinion.

Agree with this. With the exception of RVP most of the transfer business he did in the last couple of years seems in retrospect to have been more a gift for his successor than buying for himself, given they were always going to take a few years to develop into established stars in the team.

 

[Chorley1974]

The strength of the squad is relative to our competitors, they all went out and were a lot more active in the transfer market in the summer, meaning our squad is relatively weaker, again as it's been that way for a few years now. Look at our 2007-2008 squad as comparison.

 

[Loon]

One thing I come back to is what exactly were Ferguson's transfer plans for this summer? I am sure he and his scouts must have identified players who could come into United. I don't believe for one moment Fergie thought, "I'm off, so I'm not bothering to look."

Now, did Moyes look at those suggestions and not fancy them (except Thiago, who took himself elsewhere) or was the Fabregas thing dangled in front of Fergie before he left and Moyes also suckered into pursuing it? Then, when it turned out to be an agent-created ruse, Moyes was left with little or no alternative other than his own targets?

 

[Varun]

Um, we do deserve to be where we are. We have been woeful

Under Saf, he got the best out of average players. Moyes can't do that because he isn't good enough.

As much as I love SAF, he wasnt someone who could take a Sunderland or a Villa and win titles with them. He was human, not a god. Our squad is by no means a top one but these players arent average by any stretch of imagination. Yes, he extracted every last bit from the players and Moyes quite clearly lacks that ability but to say the squad deserves to be behind the likes of Everton, Spurs and Pool is to say they have better squads. You really think these 3 currently have a better squad than us?

 

[RedRover]

If you read the post - It needs two or three quality additions to be a great squad. It is already a really good squad. If we bought Coentrao and Fernandinho this Summer for instance we'd have a great squad.

The "get behind your manager at all costs" speech was because Fergie realises how fickle fans are nowadays. Hell in 2005 there were whispers of fan unrest with Fergie!

Anyone who thinks Fergie is the kind of character to walk away with a shit squad, giving a poison chalice to his successor (and friend) is bonkers in my opinion.

I disagree. For me it's the reason he walked. He doesnt seem as if he's in bad health, nor fallen out of love with the game, nor fancies doing something else - judging by his attendance at most games anyway.

He knows it needs somene younger, with time on his side to build another team, because the quality in the current sqaud just isnt there. There are too many players who havent kicked on or who are nearing the end:

Nani, Young and Valencia have showed it in flashes but no consistently enough. Kagawa has the ability but will never shift Rooney from his favoured position.

Rio is finished and Vidic, after a horrific injury and nearing the end of his contract may go. Jones hasn't settled at centre-back and suffers when he plays there because of this. Smalling has promise but hasnt kicked on like he might have. Evra is still a good player but not a long term solution.

And midfield is dire. Giggs shouldn't be in there, Cleverly hasnt got the quality. Carrick is doing well despite this.

Upfront we're well set, in all fairness.

The squad isnt strong enough, and there are three or four first team players at least who will likely be gone in a year or so, and a couple more who should be no more than squad players.

 

[Siorac]

I disagree. For me it's the reason he walked. He doesnt seem as if he's in bad health, nor fallen out of love with the game, nor fancies doing something else - judging by his attendance at most games anyway.

He knows it needs somene younger, with time on his side to build another team, because the quality in the current sqaud just isnt there.

Or instead of making up shit you could just accept the actual reason that the man himself gave us.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/death-of-wife-s-sister-was-reason-ferguson-retired-1-2926792

 

[Moriarty]

As much as I love SAF, he wasnt someone who could take a Sunderland or a Villa and win titles with them. He was human, not a god. Our squad is by no means a top one but these players arent average by any stretch of imagination. Yes, he extracted every last bit from the players and Moyes quite clearly lacks that ability but to say the squad deserves to be behind the likes of Everton, Spurs and Pool is to say they have better squads. You really think these 3 currently have a better squad than us?

Given time and resources, there's no reason why Fergie couldn't have taken Villa or Sunderland to league titles. He built an Aberdeen side good enough to compete with the Old Firm and win trophies.

 

[Loon]

Given time and resources, there's no reason why Fergie couldn't have taken Villa or Sunderland to league titles. He built an Aberdeen side good enough to compete with the Old Firm and win trophies.

I think even given the existing resources of those respective sides Ferguson would have done a better job than most managers they've had over the years (in Villa's case, possibly since Big Ron). Maybe not titles, but a much better job.

 

[Sir Matt]

So, to summarize: our squad was so poor that Fergie ran away rather than staying on. Right.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Now, did Moyes look at those suggestions and not fancy them (except Thiago, who took himself elsewhere) or was the Fabregas thing dangled in front of Fergie before he left and Moyes also suckered into pursuing it? Then, when it turned out to be an agent-created ruse, Moyes was left with little or no alternative other than his own targets?

Like with the coaches Moyes brought Everton's scouting structure along with him, not only was he replacing individuals but their informal network of contacts to boot.The Pretender's treatment of Zaha could also be seen as indicative of how he views decisions taken by the past regime.

Let's say that Fergie didn't retire but Gill moved on, do you think Fergie would have given Woodward a list of central midfielders as long as your arm? Would he have approached Bilbao as the window drew to an end, knowing that he had no intention of paying the ready? The Fabregas farce would have lasted no more than a week before SAF knocked it on the head and let it be.

 

[Bebe]

This squad should be playing much better than it currently is. I'm not in the "Moyes Out" brigade, but I worry about letting him spend a large amount of the club's transfer budget if he can't get the current squad to play any better than it is at the moment.

 

[alastair]

It's been said - but it's clearly the lack of top class players within the first team coupled with the decline of various first team players.

It was an unpopular view earlier in the season but it's becoming increasingly apparent that not a single United defender would get into a fully fit top three team and probably not a single midfielder either. Having a great goalkeeper and two top class strikers will bale you out in some games but overall it's just not enough to contend with the very best in the league.

There's also a bit of a debate to be had about the quality of what you'd call your squad players. In the midfield, players like Cleverley, Fellaini and Anderson(who admittedly has now been pushed out) just would not get into a top squad now. Nor would Young or Valencia.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

So, to summarize: our squad was so poor that Fergie ran away rather than staying on. Right.

Because, you know, Sir Alex wouldn't have cared a dman about his legacy? Daft i agree.

Lacking any decent investment through the summer i can see that we might have fallen short of City following their £90m worth of reinforcements, however make no mistake this squad should not be languishing where it is with not even the 4th being a comfortable certainty.

The resources of the team on the pitch and club as a whole have been mismanaged.

Tactical inflexibility and a mutual distrust between Moyes and the players is slowly draining the spirit from the side.

 

[FreakyJim]

What can you say about a squad that capitulates as soon as Fergie goes? For me they're not champions. You can't claim you're good enough to win the title, do win it and at the same time self destruct in just a few months time. It's embarrassing. If we'd appointed a donkey instead of Moyes this squad still shouldn't have had the excuse to perform the way they did and still do.

I'm genuinely baffled, I'm sure Moyes is too. This is so weird. Our squad became retarded over night, basically.

 

[100]

We don't really have squad players now, that's one of the bizarre things. They're all first team depending on who needs a match - Hernandez apart. We have rotating CBs, rotating midfielders and rotating wingers bar Valencia.

 

[adexkola]

If the newspapers are to be believed today, our squad is a quantum leap behind the top three and comparative with Liverpool's (yes, Paul Hayward wrote this in the Telegraph). This is the same (under-fire) Arsenal squad from last year with just one expensive addition and a player who has finally found form.

However, in the eyes of Mr. Hayward, the whole United team needs a Souness-type firesale.

It's the midfield. It's the midfield. It's the midfield. A United side capable of competing in midfield would make a world of difference.

It's called player development. Giroud, Ramsey, Wilshere are playing at higher levels. Ozil provided a needed boost. Mertesacker-Kos is probably the best defensive pairing in the league. They didn't get there overnight.

 

[Siorac]

It's been said - but it's clearly the lack of top class players within the first team coupled with the decline of various first team players.

It was an unpopular view earlier in the season but it's becoming increasingly apparent that not a single United defender would get into a fully fit top three team and probably not a single midfielder either. Having a great goalkeeper and two top class strikers will bale you out in some games but overall it's just not enough to contend with the very best in the league.

There's also a bit of a debate to be had about the quality of what you'd call your squad players. In the midfield, players like Cleverley, Fellaini and Anderson(who admittedly has now been pushed out) just would not get into a top squad now. Nor would Young or Valencia.

Meh, every squad has squad players who wouldn't get into a top squad, in theory. Neither title-challenging team would take Bendtner or Jenkinson or even Vermaelen. Chelsea have Mikel and Torres and Ba playing for them. Even City has dross like Javi Garcia.

Valencia and Young play too much considering their ability though, that's true. But that's something that's been discussed to death here. We're not forced to play either of them though, there would be other options.

I disagree about our defenders, as per usual. If we had Cahill and Terry playing for us (*shudder*) and Chelsea would have had Vidic and Evans the result wouldn't have been different at all. Maybe even worse. We have zero defensive organisation and the entire team is just horrible off the ball. The midfield plays a part in that, an important one. Evra and Rio have declined, Büttner is plain shite but our other defenders are quality players but as so many others in the team, they are underperforming.

A game plan, a system, a philosophy - these all play an important part in how players perform. Stick Ronaldo in a rigid 4-4-2 and he will suffer. Barcelona's had a great defensive record over the past few years and not because Mascherano and Piqué are brilliant, it's because they kept the ball and pressed incredibly well as a team when they didn't have it. Similarly, Arsenal's defensive improvement is not because Mertesacker and Koscielny are world class. Stick those two in the current United team and they'd be a laughing stock.

 

[RedRover]

Or instead of making up shit you could just accept the actual reason that the man himself gave us.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/death-of-wife-s-sister-was-reason-ferguson-retired-1-2926792

Evidently people's family effects what they do, so fair enough.

But, in my opion he realised that there was a big job to do, and that he didnt have the time to dedicate himself to it. Family issues probably play a part in that as well, because from a footballing point of view, doing so would take a number of years.

You're entitled to your opinion, as is anyone on here. I disagree that he thinks he's handed Moyes a brilliant squad regardless of what he says in public. There are issues evident to anyone who knows anything about football that havent been addressed for years, and as I said, a core nucleus of excellent players either recently retired, or look like moving on in the very near future.

That's going to be difficult for any team and it is, an end of an era and repalcing those players, is what's needed, because some players dont look good enough to do it.

At the end of the day if you lose a Ronaldo and repalce him with Valencia, or lose a Scholes and repalce him with a Cleverlye - with all sue respect to those players, you're not going to have the quality you had. And that, for me is the root of the probelm.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

It was an unpopular view earlier in the season but it's becoming increasingly apparent that not a single United defender would get into a fully fit top three team

Rafael was in the 12-18 months preceding this season on the verge of becoming the best right back in the league.

Jones, Smalling and Evans have enough talent if only Moyes would settle on an actual CB combination.

 

[finneh]

Ferguson must have known the weaknesses in that squad/team unless he was totally blind. Even though he didn't rectify it, he must have seen the deficiences in midfield, he must have realised that our 3 senior defenders were seriously struggling, he must have seen how one dimensional our wingers were. Ferguson adapted our game over the last couple of years and played a lot tighter, and lot more defensively. The swash-buckling attacking was long gone by last season. Of course Ferguson knew what he was leaving.

He probably presumed Moyes would rectify a couple of the problems though.

It is not a really good squad by the way. It's good, but it certainly isn't really good. There is too much deadwood. Three quality players would make a huge difference though. Fernandinho, as you mentioned, would have been an excellent addition for example. That would have given us something in midfield.

Ferguson knew the weaknesses in the team. But having weaknesses doesn't mean you aren't a very good team: Chelsea and Arsenal are testament to this.

The fact is if we signed a good left back (Coentrao was available on loan!) our first choice back five would be sorted for 6-7 years. Our strike force is one of the best in the World and is fine for 3 years (Rooney dependent).

I would say an attacking 3 behind RVP of any of Januzaj, Nani, Rooney, Kagawa would all be more than good enough to compete for titles and with Valencia/Young/Zaha as backups it is a decent balance of youth and experience. Just because Mopyes has persisted with 4-4-2 and persisted with the most out of form components doesn't automatically mean we're poor in these areas.

Which basically leaves central midfield. An area which has been neglected for years but also an opportunity for the new manager to come in and add a couple of quality players and put his own stamp on the squad. He bought Fellaini who in all seriousness isn't any better than Carrick, Fletcher or Cleverley. It goes without saying that players like Fernandinho, Thiago, Strootman, Matic, Flamini, McCarthy, Barry have all moved in the time Moyes has been at the club and were all substantially better value than Fellaini.

This means that 4 of our back 5 was sorted and our front 4 was sorted, to a title challenging level. We also had the best midfielder of last season. How this has suddenly become needing to bring in 3-4 first team starters is more down to our crappy play than our squad.

I disagree. For me it's the reason he walked. He doesnt seem as if he's in bad health, nor fallen out of love with the game, nor fancies doing something else - judging by his attendance at most games anyway.

He knows it needs somene younger, with time on his side to build another team, because the quality in the current sqaud just isnt there. There are too many players who havent kicked on or who are nearing the end:

Nani, Young and Valencia have showed it in flashes but no consistently enough. Kagawa has the ability but will never shift Rooney from his favoured position.

Rio is finished and Vidic, after a horrific injury and nearing the end of his contract may go. Jones hasn't settled at centre-back and suffers when he plays there because of this. Smalling has promise but hasnt kicked on like he might have. Evra is still a good player but not a long term solution.

And midfield is dire. Giggs shouldn't be in there, Cleverly hasnt got the quality. Carrick is doing well despite this.

Upfront we're well set, in all fairness.


The squad isnt strong enough, and there are three or four first team players at least who will likely be gone in a year or so, and a couple more who should be no more than squad players.

I think the belief that Fergie somehow felt the challenge of the next few years was too much absurd, given everything we know about him. As I said above - going into the season it's easily arguable that 9 of our first 11 were title challenging players.

I feel Fergie felt the same as me - that the squad was a perfect balance of experience, quality and young talent. It needed a couple of additions that if Fergie made himself would basically have left the new manager with little budget and little room to put his own stamp on the team, something that he himself has said in the past is very important for any new manager.

A first team of: DDG, Rafael, Jones, Evans, LB, Carrick, CM, Nani, Rooney, Januzaj, RVP is a match for any team in the League. For the CM spot Moyes purchased Fellaini who hasn't improved us at all. If we were proactive we could have had a title challenging squad even without spending a penny - adding Flamini for nothing and Coentrao on loan.

 

[Walrus]

I agree. Our squad has potential, we have a lot of very good and very exciting young players who can easily form the core of a top team, for years to come.

De Gea

Evans
Jones
Smalling
Rafael

Cleverley
Zaha
Januzaj
Kagawa

Welbeck
Hernandez

These are just the youth talents and I may have missed a couple (not mentioning those like Fabio who are likely to be on the way out). That is already nearly a good XI itself, with a couple of quality reinforcements it has the makings of a good team.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

The squad isn't bad. We are unfortunate that during this inevitable transition period, RVP and Rooney have been injured for big periods. Liverpool would slide down without Suarez and Sturridge, Chelsea would crumble if Hazard and Oscar got injured, Arsenal would have struggled if Giroud picked up an injury during the first 10-15 games. Only City would be ok due to their squad depth.

 

[finneh]

It's been said - but it's clearly the lack of top class players within the first team coupled with the decline of various first team players.

It was an unpopular view earlier in the season but it's becoming increasingly apparent that not a single United defender would get into a fully fit top three team and probably not a single midfielder either. Having a great goalkeeper and two top class strikers will bale you out in some games but overall it's just not enough to contend with the very best in the league.

There's also a bit of a debate to be had about the quality of what you'd call your squad players. In the midfield, players like Cleverley, Fellaini and Anderson(who admittedly has now been pushed out) just would not get into a top squad now. Nor would Young or Valencia.

Just like Mertesacker, Rosicky, Ramsey, Giroud, Sagna, Podolski, Walcott, Koscielny.

These are all players in your team that some Arsenal fans have criticised as not good enough in a title challenging team over the past few years and wanted rid of. Suddenly a great return from 21 games and they are all really good player's who can contribute to a title challenging team.

This is the nature of fickle fans. We have nine player's in our starting XI who would either improve or not look out of place in Chelsea or Arsenal's team. Just because we are playing utterly crap under Moyes doesn't change that.

Evans or Cahill? Rafael or Azpilicueta? Carrick or Arteta? Nani or Walcott? Gnabry or Januzaj?

That's before you even talk about player's like Vidic who were better than our rivals' comparable starters before they have fallen off a cliff since Moyes' appointment.

Obviously Cleverley, Fellaini and Anderson wouldn't get into a top squad and shouldn't be in our squad. But likewise Giroud and Eto'o shouldn't be a first team starter for a team with title aspirations; neither should Cahill be a first choice defender; neither should Bendtner or Torres be the second best strikers at the club. Every team has an area that isn't as strong as it should be (even City need a LB and a CB), it doesn't mean the entire squad is shit.

 

[alastair]

I won't quote everyone so I'll just try to reply in one post.

I agree that to some extent, everyone has players that you wouldn't consider as being remotely useful in a title challenge - my point was more that United have an abundance of them and not just one or two.

Leaving Arsenal aside for a minute, consider Chelsea and City's options. If you look at someone like Jesus Navas, Silva and Nasri, you'll have two of those on the bench in most games. There's no comparison in those options to Young, Valencia and Nani. Chelsea are similar.

In terms of defence, it also has to be accepted that Evans, Jones and Smalling are at least one step down from the top tier, as things stand. There is room for player development though, I accept. Vidic and Ferdinand are becoming less and less relevant. I certainly would respect Siorac's point that they haven't been protected through the style of play and this contributes to a misconception that they're not that good. I still would contend, however, that individually the players set to replace Vidic and Ferdinand are unlikely to ever reach their level, and indeed the level of a Kompany or a Koscielny.

As for the view that nine United players could get into a Chelsea or Arsenal team, I don't even know where to start with that. Perhaps last season. Perhaps the season before that. The reality is that they have been gazumped. Cahill has been playing better than Evans, Azpilicueta has proved me wrong and has become excellent, Walcott is much more effective than Nani, etc. The list could go on forever.

 

[adexkola]

We do not have 9 players that would improve the first team of Arsenal or Chelsea. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not even last season was that statement valid.

 

[alastair]

I'd probably say: De Gea, Chelsea's back four, Chelsea's midfield, then you'd play one of RVP or Rooney up top. They'd have either.

 

[finneh]

In fairness I didn't say 9 of our team would get into Arsenal/Chelsea's team. I said that 9 of them wouldn't look out of place and wouldn't look out of place in a title challenging team.

Switch any of DDG, Rafael, Evans, Jones, Carrick, Nani, Rooney, RVP or Januzaj into Arsenal's team and they would either improve it or have a negligible net effect.

 

[alastair]

In fairness I didn't say 9 of our team would get into Arsenal/Chelsea's team. I said that 9 of them wouldn't look out of place and wouldn't look out of place in a title challenging team.

Switch any of DDG, Rafael, Evans, Jones, Carrick, Nani, Rooney, RVP or Januzaj into Arsenal's team and they would either improve it or have a negligible net effect.

It's just not true though.

Evans and Jones are at this point in time significantly worse than Mertesacker and Koscielny, Ozil/Cazorla is a sizeable improvement on Januzaj(for the next couple of seasons at least), Nani can't get into your side, Carrick is in decline etc.

You're living in the past, I respectfully think.

 

[manutddjw]

I agree 100% and we can go look at threads from last season and in the summer and it gives all the proof needed to show that the majority on here believed that we were in a good shape good wise except for a couple of areas. We were sorted for strikers and goalkeeper and it may not seem like it now, but there was no reason to be concerned about our defence this season.

Rafael, Evans, Smalling and Jones were coming along nicely, but the big change in opinion has been with Ferdinand and Vidic. Last season Rio was outstanding and was earning praise seemingly after every single match. There was nothing in his performances last season to suggest that he would be as he is today. He went from playing 32 games for us last season playing twice a week in alot of cases, to now being on a Giggs schedule. Centerback was not an area that many were concerned with and when there were strong rumours suggesting we were about to sign Garay, many people questioned why we were adding another centerback when we didn't need one. Evra did better last season and we did loan out Fabio (who hasn't been used, rendering the loan signing a waste of time) and signed Buttner. We do need a left back, but it wasn't the biggest priority in the summer as we easily could've appered over the cracks and with another season with Evra.

To build on the title winning squad last season and make it better, we for sure needed a midfielder and if you had given up on Valencia, Young and Nani; you could've made a very valid argument that we needed another winger. However, I will argue that Januzaj has been what we'd hope for should we have signed a winger. If we were to sign Everton Ribiero for example and he came in a played like Januzaj has, I'd be over the fecking moon with the signing. A central midfielder was the priority and what we really needed. We signed Fellaini.

Moyes has been really unlucky that we've had so many injuries to key players, but the squad he was given was certainly good enough and he should've done a better job adding to it.

 

[Varun]

Given time and resources, there's no reason why Fergie couldn't have taken Villa or Sunderland to league titles. He built an Aberdeen side good enough to compete with the Old Firm and win trophies.

I am talking short term mate. It was in response to someone calling players we have currently bang average. My point was, Ferguson was great at squeezing the last drop out of a squad but even he wasnt taking an average squad to league titles. People will just bring up any sort of defence atm to justify how Moyes has done so far.

 

[Siorac]

As for the view that nine United players could get into a Chelsea or Arsenal team, I don't even know where to start with that. Perhaps last season. Perhaps the season before that. The reality is that they have been gazumped. Cahill has been playing better than Evans, Azpilicueta has proved me wrong and has become excellent, Walcott is much more effective than Nani, etc. The list could go on forever.

You're talking about form here, al. The players you mentioned are playing better than their United counterparts but that doesn't mean our players have suddenly become shite. Barcelona looked absolutely clueless for long parts of 07/08 but it's not because they had shit players.

It's a fallacy to conclude that if the current manager can't get as much out of the players as the previous one then the players must have become bad. If you judge our players on how they're performing this season then yes, we need to sell about 15 of them and bring in as many. That's not how it works though; Arsenal didn't have to replace the entire squad to look better than last season.

 

[alastair]

You're talking about form here, al. The players you mentioned are playing better than their United counterparts but that doesn't mean our players have suddenly become shite. Barcelona looked absolutely clueless for long parts of 07/08 but it's not because they had shit players.

It's a fallacy to conclude that if the current manager can't get as much out of the players as the previous one then the players must have become bad. If you judge our players on how they're performing this season then yes, we need to sell about 15 of them and bring in as many. That's not how it works though; Arsenal didn't have to replace the entire squad to look better than last season.

Agreed, to a certain extent. There's no way the decline in United's game has been the result of players alone.

But the form that has been lost by some players cannot necessarily be reversed. I don't think United's young players have played as poorly as the experienced players this season, for example. Form lost by Vidic, Carrick, Ferdinand and Evra though seems impossible to turn around. They just need replacing. The worry is that the players earmarked to replace them long term are not yet at their level. There's no comparison between an '08 Ferdinand and a '14 Jones/Evans/Smalling.

There's essentially a gap in your squad of players at their peak. They're either not there yet or have been there and are past it.

 

[beergod]

There's essentially a gap in your squad of players at their peak. They're either not there yet or have been there and are past it.

Very true.

I recall SAF saying something the the effect that you cannot let your team age together. Yet he seems to have broken that rule with Evra/Vidic/Ferdinand/Carrick. I think Fellaini was intended to be Carrick's long-term replacement but we never got that critical creative player we've been needing for years.

 

[Siorac]

Agreed, to a certain extent. There's no way the decline in United's game has been the result of players alone.

But the form that has been lost by some players cannot necessarily be reversed. I don't think United's young players have played as poorly as the experienced players this season, for example. Form lost by Vidic, Carrick, Ferdinand and Evra though seems impossible to turn around. They just need replacing. The worry is that the players earmarked to replace them long term are not yet at their level. There's no comparison between an '08 Ferdinand and a '14 Jones/Evans/Smalling.

There's essentially a gap in your squad of players at their peak. They're either not there yet or have been there and are past it.

Definitely agree about lacking class players at the peak of their careers. That's true.

I also agree that Ferdinand and Evra are gone, their form won't come back, the writing's been on the wall for a while. I'm not sure about Vidic yet and Pirlo's incredible resurgence at Juventus shows that an intelligent central midfield player doesn't have to accept decline as soon as he enters his thirties. I'm not saying Carrick is as good as Pirlo, he's not but Pirlo was basically written off after years of struggling at Milan and he's two years older than Carrick.

Jones, Evans and Smalling will never reach the level of '08 Ferdinand/Vidic, that's also true. Then again, the league does not have a CB pairing nearly as strong as that one was. I believe they can reach the level that's necessary to win the league NOW. Joleon Lescott was a fixture in a title-winning team, Gary Cahill is a key player for Chelsea etc. You don't necessarily need the caliber of Ferdinand and Vidic at their peak. Even Bayern don't have that.

If we had, say, Vidal and Pogba playing with Carrick in midfield this team would look a whole lot better, even with all the flaws. They aren't realistic targets unfortunately but my point is that two quality midfield additions and a change to the system would go a loooong way towards fixing our problems. And I have to add that you're talking about our weaknesses from the aspect of competing with the top three... it's not the same as competing against Liverpool, Spurs and Everton. As many flaws as our squad has, I refuse to accept that these clubs have better squads.

 

[alastair]

Definitely agree about lacking class players at the peak of their careers. That's true.

I also agree that Ferdinand and Evra are gone, their form won't come back, the writing's been on the wall for a while. I'm not sure about Vidic yet and Pirlo's incredible resurgence at Juventus shows that an intelligent central midfield player doesn't have to accept decline as soon as he enters his thirties. I'm not saying Carrick is as good as Pirlo, he's not but Pirlo was basically written off after years of struggling at Milan and he's two years older than Carrick.

Jones, Evans and Smalling will never reach the level of '08 Ferdinand/Vidic, that's also true. Then again, the league does not have a CB pairing nearly as strong as that one was. I believe they can reach the level that's necessary to win the league NOW. Joleon Lescott was a fixture in a title-winning team, Gary Cahill is a key player for Chelsea etc. You don't necessarily need the caliber of Ferdinand and Vidic at their peak. Even Bayern don't have that.

If we had, say, Vidal and Pogba playing with Carrick in midfield this team would look a whole lot better, even with all the flaws. They aren't realistic targets unfortunately but my point is that two quality midfield additions and a change to the system would go a loooong way towards fixing our problems. And I have to add that you're talking about our weaknesses from the aspect of competing with the top three... it's not the same as competing against Liverpool, Spurs and Everton. As many flaws as our squad has, I refuse to accept that these clubs have better squads.

I completely agree that it's ludicrous to talk about United's squad as the 6th best in the country or something - that's just an attempt to protect Moyes from any level of criticism.

I also accept that you don't necessarily need another Vidic and Ferdinand but I do think you lack a top class defender at their peak. Man City are struggling with this too, with Kompany suffering from a loss of form at the minute, but they score enough to make up for it.

It's not all doom and gloom. A couple of additions would change the scene immeasurably. United seem to me to be massively in need of a boost of any sort - a big signing does that. I said after our signing of Ozil that it didn't matter how he played because the impact of his presence alone on the team would be huge. I'm rarely proven right but I have been on that one. United need a similar move in a key position.