This Isn't A Bad Squad

The difference between our current squad and the likes of citeh and chelsea is the amount of quality players who can affect a game. Our successful teams of the past 20 years always had at least 3 or 4 players who were exceptional. Players who could probably walk into any top 4 team and get a starting place.
i can only think of 2 players and both are injured
 
Sultan said:
I'd say RvP, Rooney on the pitch with a few quality additions will make other lesser players better and give them confidence and a winning mentality. .
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Exactly. And we need more than two world class players, otherwise we're stuffed when the two we have got are injured. Like now.

Sad to say, but when teams like City are able to snap up the top players with their bottomless chest, it shows that football as we knew it is gone for good. Only the rich are going to survive.
 
Livvie said:
Exactly. And we need more than two world class players, otherwise we're stuffed when the two we have got are injured. Like now.

Sad to say, but when teams like City are able to snap up the top players with their bottomless chest, it shows that football as we knew it is gone for good. Only the rich are going to survive.
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City have been very smart this season - rather than adding top bracket players to a very good squad they've shopped a level below - and now have a very strong squad of 20+ players who they can keep happy. Its what Fergie always did in the past - for me its the key to consistency.

As for the latter point - United are more than rich enough to compete, have and continue to spend big money. Its about loosening the purse strings and investing. Seems the penny may have finally dropped with those in charge.
 
NinjaFletch said:
De Gea and Lindegard are fine, but if Lindegard goes we need a number 2. Not really an issue, however.

Rafael is class, but we need better than a centre back covering him. Fabio's inability to be selected means we'll probably have to buy. Evans is a perfectly good back up, and Jones and Smalling can compete for the place that Vidic will vacate at the end of the season. We probably need one centre back, a top quality one, but the depth is good.

Evra is muck, but he will be replaced.

The depth in central midfield isn't awful as Fellaini, Fletcher, Carrick, Nick Powell and Cleverley are capable back ups. I think this is really Carrick's last season as an automatic starter and I'd lack to see him replaced with a more balanced midfield, often I feel like the biggest hindrance in forming an effective midfield is that Carrick for his individual brilliance is a difficult player to naturally partner. I'd like two signings here, a 'grafter' (although I'd like them to have more to their game than that) and a player who is a touch more creative.

The wings are muck and we all know that, Giggs doesn't count which leaves us with Januzaj, Zaha, Lingard and Nani who should be kept but I feel like thats easily fixed. An absolute top quality left winger, and I'd like to see a player with more to his game than a dime to the dozen speed merchant like Lucas Moura, and we should be ok here.

Perhaps controversially, despite the amazing form of Negredo, Aguero and Dzeko and the SAS (:lol:) I still think we have the best strike force in the league. Rooney and Van Persie are world class; Welbeck and Hernandez are more than adequate back ups. The biggest problem up front is the lack of service. We have no real need to strengthen here unless Rooney leaves, in which case we're fecked. It would probably necessitate a change in system because, possibly Diego Costa aside, I just can't see any available forwards who would compare, and I'm not even sure about Costa.

If we do change system to a continental 4-2-3-1 with a number 10 (I say change, but not really, you know what I mean) I think we'd have to reduce striker numbers, Hernandez would be the most likely to go but, with Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj, we're well stocked here, even if I don't feel like Rooney provides anywhere near the creativity he should from here nor do I think Kagawa is good enough to cut the mustard.

I started off with the comment 'our squad isn't actually that bad' and was going to vehemently disagree with those who said it is, but its clear, I think, from any objective analysis that we are going to have to overhaul areas of it.

We need, in my opinion, clearly in order of priority:
2 first choice midfielders
1 first choice left back
1 first choice winger (if Nani is to be as underused as he currently is then two)
1 first choice ball playing centre half
1 back up left back
1 back up right back
1 first choice striker (were Rooney to go)
1 back up goalkeeper (If Lindegard goes)

I make that 7 players we definitely need, 10 if things pan out that way, and I've tried be as conservative as I can here.

In order to make room for this these are the players I expect to leave/have a diminished role in the team:

Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick, Giggs, Büttner, Fabio

Alongside players who probably should leave but won't necessarily do so

Young, Valencia,

and those that may go out on loan

Powell, Lingard, Cleverley, Zaha

I can't really see this happening.
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Football Manager beckons.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
It's an average squad with an average manager.

A great manager was able to get them over achieving. This one isn't.
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Unless.... The new manager is victim of a severe resistance to change.

If thats the case then were expecting from gollum more then we expect from SAF.
 
::sonny:: said:
We are all witnesses, in the future, to our nephew we could say: I've watched the worst United squad ever in 2013/14
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Hahaha.

It's the ones so spoiled they still don't know what's coming that really warms me.
 
Moonwalker said:
Football Manager beckons.
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I think even the most ardent proponent of the argument the squad isnt terrible will have to admit that, for reasons of age alone, there is going to be an upheaval in this squad

Im not a massive fan of what i said, it changes too much too soon, but i think our failure to adress provlems last summer has necessitated it
 
It's not a bad squad at all, a bad squad doesn't get 89 points two seasons running. It's just underachieving massively.
 
The issue isn't with the strength of the squad. The issue is that most of the "squad" players, or players who should be squad players at best, are now first XI players.

There's been a huge loss in our first XI in terms of quality.

I'm not sure if it's coincidence or just a cruel twist of fate, but all of the players who "carried" us over the past 3 years (and last year especially) seem to be either done/old, uninspired, out of form or injured.

RvP, Carrick, Rooney, Vidic, Rio, Evra, Valencia.

That's 7 first team players whose, barring Rooney/RvP, levels have dropped drastically. 7 first team players. Add to that, we've never replaced Scholes, you start to get the picture.
 
Loon said:
What's coming? At least it can't be Sexton...
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Who knows. It's funny however, that some would point blank assume that this is as bad as it gets.
 
The Matacopter has landed. Huge boast to the quality of our squad. :devil:
 
Sarni said:
It's not a bad squad at all, a bad squad doesn't get 89 points two seasons running. It's just underachieving massively.
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Statements like this annoy me I must say. The squad isnt a robot. Its doesnt perform to a set level every single season with no account for other factors. It consists of so many varibles. Its doesnt take into account our rivals and how much they've strengtened in the same period. The number of players Fergie left in their mid thirties must be a record in terms of his previous squads.

If we are being honestly Fergie should have started a rebuild properly when City beat us on goal difference. Instead he bought probably the best band aid available in RVP. Our main issues still went unaddressed.

I think the signs were clearly there last year.
 
Decotron said:
If we are being honestly Fergie should have started a rebuild properly when City beat us on goal difference. Instead he bought probably the best band aid available in RVP. Our main issues still went unaddressed.

I think the signs were clearly there last year.
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In fairness, he probably realised that season was going to be his last and I'd forgive him for wanting to go out with a bang. Probably felt we couldn't rely on Rooney and brought Van Persie.

The main issues should have been addressed in the summer, instead we tried to go big name, failed and plodded along for a few months trying to work out which players were up to it and which aren't. Still trying to work that out with most of the players.
 
Decotron said:
Statements like this annoy me I must say. The squad isnt a robot. Its doesnt perform to a set level every single season with no account for other factors. It consists of so many varibles. Its doesnt take into account our rivals and how much they've strengtened in the same period. The number of players Fergie left in their mid thirties must be a record in terms of his previous squads.

If we are being honestly Fergie should have started a rebuild properly when City beat us on goal difference. Instead he bought probably the best band aid available in RVP. Our main issues still went unaddressed.

I think the signs were clearly there last year.
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Then people would blame him for leaving a ready made team of young players that Moyes couldn't do much about in terms of rebuilding and making it his own. Honestly, this team is nowhere near this bad and when it comes to players in their 30s the only one he didn't leave a replacement for was Carrick - and Moyes has actually tried to address that with nearly 30 million outlay.

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be in the same position with Ferguson in charge either. We might be struggling to win the league given the amount of injuries and our squad ageing but we wouldn't be 7th in the middle of January.
 
We have a number of players e.g Valencia, Cleverley who are great to have in the squad however perhaps don't have the skills to be classed as first team regulars. We need more quality starters and keep certain players as squad players.
 
Decotron said:
Statements like this annoy me I must say. The squad isnt a robot. Its doesnt perform to a set level every single season with no account for other factors. It consists of so many varibles. Its doesnt take into account our rivals and how much they've strengtened in the same period. The number of players Fergie left in their mid thirties must be a record in terms of his previous squads.

If we are being honestly Fergie should have started a rebuild properly when City beat us on goal difference. Instead he bought probably the best band aid available in RVP. Our main issues still went unaddressed.

I think the signs were clearly there last year.
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There is clearly some truth to this. And I don't mean that as an outright criticism of Fergie. It all has an air of inevitability about it. He couldn't keep on rebuilding teams for ever, there simply wasn't enough time for that.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
There is clearly some truth to this. And I don't mean that as an outright criticism of Fergie. It all has an air of inevitability about it. He couldn't keep on rebuilding teams for ever, there simply wasn't enough time for that.
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I don't think there was an air of inevitability that we would do this badly though. The inevitability was that we would drop behind City and Chelsea, not Liverpool and Everton.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I don't think there was an air of inevitability that we would do this badly though. The inevitability was that we would drop behind City and Chelsea, not Liverpool and Everton.
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Margins, arguably. Put last season's RVP into this season's equation and we salvage a point here and there. We aren't miles off top four. And both Liverpool and Everton have been much better than anyone on here predicted before the season.

Anyway, by inevitability I was mainly referring to the circumstances surrounding Fergie's retirement as such. He was a unique manager. The transition was going to be unique as well - uncharted territory and all that.
 
It's all well and good saying we've been missing key players but even our second string should be capable of dispatching a team like Sunderland. And in terms of sheer ability they are, the problem is predominantly physiological imo.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Margins, arguably. Put last season's RVP into this season's equation and we salvage a point here and there. We aren't miles off top four. And both Liverpool and Everton have been much better than anyone on here predicted before the season.

Anyway, by inevitability I was mainly referring to the circumstances surrounding Fergie's retirement as such. He was a unique manager. The transition was going to be unique as well - uncharted territory and all that.
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The RVP equation gets nullified becaused we finished with 89 points with the exact same squad minus Van Persie. This team as a whole shouldn't be on a losing streak like it has.

I agree the transition was going to be difficult but I think we would have benefitted more from some new fresh ideas. Instead we have the same tactics that Fergie outlaid just without the motivational attributes to back it up.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
The RVP equation gets nullified becaused we finished with 89 points with the exact same squad minus Van Persie. This team as a whole shouldn't be on a losing streak like it has.

I agree the transition was going to be difficult but I think we would have benefitted more from some new fresh ideas. Instead we have the same tactics that Fergie outlaid just without the motivational attributes to back it up.
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This has been done to death - as have all the arguments pro and contra - but this isn't logically sound. It presupposes that the exact same squad (minus RVP, who contributed heavily to those 89 points, which makes the argument even less sound) performs in the exact same way against the exact same level of opposition. None of which is the case. It also disregards the particular properties of RVP, a player who is capable of grabbing three points for you against the flow of the match, in spite of the team performing badly. That is precisely what he did for us last season on several, not to say numerous occasions.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
This has been done to death - as have all the arguments pro and contra - but this isn't logically sound. It presupposes that the exact same squad (minus RVP, who contributed heavily to those 89 points, which makes the argument even less sound) performs in the exact same way against the exact same level of opposition. None of which is the case. It also disregards the particular properties of RVP, a player who is capable of grabbing three points for you against the flow of the match, in spite of the team performing badly. That is precisely what he did for us last season on several, not to say numerous occasions.
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But it indicates that this team is hardly as bad as the results show because they have been proven in the past (also RVP contributed nothing to those 89 points in 11/12). The entire team has proven they can play without RVP so the logic that they would wilt so badly as they have done now doesn't hold up.
 
De Gea
Lindegaard
Johnstone

Rafael
Varela
Evans
Smalling
Vidic
Jones
Keane
?
Buttner


Carrick
?
Fellaini
Cleverley
Fletcher
Powell

Mata
Rooney
Nani
Januzaj
Kagawa
Zaha

Van Persie
Welbeck
Hernandez


That there is a very good squad. Answer those two question marks properly and it becomes a great one.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
But it indicates that this team is hardly as bad as the results show because they have been proven in the past (also RVP contributed nothing to those 89 points in 11/12). The entire team has proven they can play without RVP so the logic that they would wilt so badly as they have done now doesn't hold up.
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Fair enough, we finished on 89 last season too, so I misunderstood. The argument still doesn't hold water, though. It's not the same squad under the same circumstances and the comparison is bound to be of limited interest. If we assume the quality of the squad hasn't deteriorated at all and that our rivals remain on the same level AND that the impact of losing Fergie isn't all that significant - then, yes, it's remarkable that we're so poor compared to seasons past. But we can't assume any of this, can we?

We're not talking about the difference between a league winning side and a side languishing in 7th here. RVP's absence is obviously not a sufficient explanation for such a discrepancy. What we're talking about is the difference between 7th and top four in what was bound to be a difficult season. His match winning form of last season could easily make up this difference.
 
We only finished with a mere 89 points last season because after we won the title we stopped trying. We should have had about 92-94.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
This has been done to death - as have all the arguments pro and contra - but this isn't logically sound. It presupposes that the exact same squad (minus RVP, who contributed heavily to those 89 points, which makes the argument even less sound) performs in the exact same way against the exact same level of opposition. None of which is the case. It also disregards the particular properties of RVP, a player who is capable of grabbing three points for you against the flow of the match, in spite of the team performing badly. That is precisely what he did for us last season on several, not to say numerous occasions.
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It also disregards the improvement in the performances of all the teams across the league. It disregards the dramatic improvements in the teams competing for the title. It disregards the depreciation of the players in our squad on the wrong side of the age curve.

Nonlinearity. It's really not that hard to grasp. You can't extrapolate in football.
 
Funny how things can change over the course of a year. Last season people were saying this was probably Ferguson's best squad and now it's being called average.
 
BarneyLFC said:
Funny how things can change over the course of a year. Last season people were saying this was probably Ferguson's best squad and now it's being called average.
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Some people laughed at that idea though. Probably more than those who agreed with it.
 
BarneyLFC said:
Funny how things can change over the course of a year. Last season people were saying this was probably Ferguson's best squad and now it's being called average.
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Who said that? Many here felt we weren't great last season, and that the lack of quality in our title rivals and van Persie's presence brought us the championship.
 
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