This Isn't A Bad Squad

[amolbhatia50k]

Not good. Did you notice he's not been playing lately?

Did you notice when he does play he's far younger than Rio, making your point ridiculous?

Oh, like Vidic who has been missing for a good part of two seasons prior to this one?

Look, there are two reasons why a players' performances drop. Either due to a decline in his actual ability or due to form/attitude/mismanagement/lack of motivation. My personal take is that only Rio really looks to have genuinely declined. So I dont think the squad is any weaker than it was last season and definitely not significantly weaker.

 

[Adebesi]

I agree our squad is better than results suggest. The reason they arent doing very well isnt because they lack ability it is because they are completely disorientated by the departure of SAF. Whether they actively dont like Moyes, dont like his training and dont want to play for him, or have lost a bit of belief in themselves because SAF has gone, or dont understand what is being asked of them by the new regime, or cant motivate themselves to give more than 90%, or whatever it is, it is something other than the players lacking the ability. Because they won the league last year which means by definition they have the ability.

 

[Thisistheone]

Apologies if this has already been said, but the squad isn't the issue. It's the starting XI.

We are undeniably lacking in certain areas. And it's gonna cost a shed load to get some world class talent in. Which means its either going to be a quick fix and the Glazers actually do throw £200million or whatever at the problem or it's going to be a painful, long term rebuild as Moyes tries to keep up with the two oil clubs without spending their money.

 

[RedRover]

I agree our squad is better than results suggest. The reason they arent doing very well isnt because they lack ability it is because they are completely disorientated by the departure of SAF. Whether they actively dont like Moyes, dont like his training and dont want to play for him, or have lost a bit of belief in themselves because SAF has gone, or dont understand what is being asked of them by the new regime, or cant motivate themselves to give more than 90%, or whatever it is, it is something other than the players lacking the ability. Because they won the league last year which means by definition they have the ability.

This is arguably the case, if Rooney and RVP are playing.

Some of the critisim in the press after yesterday's game is completely over the top. Chelsea is a very difficult place to go to and get a result, especially when you have your two genuinely world class players out injured. Many good sides have been well beaten there.

We defended badly yesterday - and didnt have a lot of luck. It wasn't a good performance by any stretch, but we weren't dominated.

Fact is, last year withoyt RVP we wouldnt have won the league. Without the quality of Rooney and RVP, we dont have enough quality to be challenging for titles. Its that simple.

 

[Adebesi]

Yes that is also true, our starting XI is weak relative to our top 4 rivals, and over reliant on a couple of key players.

 

[Massive Spanner]

This is arguably the case, if Rooney and RVP are playing.

Some of the critisim in the press after yesterday's game is completely over the top. Chelsea is a very difficult place to go to and get a result, especially when you have your two genuinely world class players out injured. Many good sides have been well beaten there.

We defended badly yesterday - and didnt have a lot of luck. It wasn't a good performance by any stretch, but we weren't dominated.

Fact is, last year withoyt RVP we wouldnt have won the league. Without the quality of Rooney and RVP, we dont have enough quality to be challenging for titles. Its that simple.

Many, including me, would disagree. If SAF had spent the money on a good midfielder instead of RvP I think we'd have won it. You really think RvP was the difference in nine points last season, potentially more if we hadn't won the league with three games to spare? I don't, I said before we signed him we'd win it.

If anything, SAF buying RvP has been a massive problem for Moyes now. He wasn't worth the long term cost.

 

[RedRover]

Apologies if this has already been said, but the squad isn't the issue. It's the starting XI.

We are undeniably lacking in certain areas. And it's gonna cost a shed load to get some world class talent in. Which means its either going to be a quick fix and the Glazers actually do throw £200million or whatever at the problem or it's going to be a painful, long term rebuild as Moyes tries to keep up with the two oil clubs without spending their money.

This, in my view, will not be allowed to happen.

The debt the club has been saddled with needs to be serviced. The club must therefore, have a modicum of success, at the very least qualifying for the CL every year. If not income falls and most importanly the brand is damaged around the world.

Thw whole business appears to be a financial house of cards. Football clubs are not like other business selling a tangible product to consumers - its all very dependant on how well the club are doing. Fans are fickle - especially in the markets where football is a novelty - like in the far east, the places UNited seem to generate a lot of their income and commercial deals.

 

[Adebesi]

Fact is, last year withoyt RVP we wouldnt have won the league.

That's actually not a fact at all, that is an assertion I happen to disagree with, Ive just been discussing the very point with Cina in another thread. If RVP had gone to Juve (too complicated thinking about what impact he would have had on City if he had gone there) and we had Rooney playing as our 9 and Kagawa playing as 10, which is presumably what was originally intended, I believe we would still have won the league.

Certainly I believe Rooney would have scored the goals that RVP did to get us through games and keep us up there, he was class up front the year before so I see no reason to believe he would have suddenly gone off the boil. OK it is impossible to know how Kagawa would have settled in but in terms of the job RVP did specifically, I think Rooney would have done it anyway.

 

[Adebesi]

Ah, Cina beat me to it.

 

[Siorac]

This is arguably the case, if Rooney and RVP are playing.

Some of the critisim in the press after yesterday's game is completely over the top. Chelsea is a very difficult place to go to and get a result, especially when you have your two genuinely world class players out injured. Many good sides have been well beaten there.

We defended badly yesterday - and didnt have a lot of luck. It wasn't a good performance by any stretch, but we weren't dominated.

Fact is, last year withoyt RVP we wouldnt have won the league. Without the quality of Rooney and RVP, we dont have enough quality to be challenging for titles. Its that simple.

Well yes. But the issue, at the moment, isn't that we're not challenging for titles. It's that we're seventh in the league with Everton four points ahead of us with a game in hand.

I said it many times that we were always going to lose at Stamford Bridge. It's a bit annoying that they didn't even have to get out of second gear to do it but it would have been silly to expect anything more, result wise. It's very disappointing, however, that we reverted to type after the promising second half against Swansea: get it out wide, whack crosses in. We could have tried playing the type of football we played against Swansea.

Also, why the feck do we have zero defensive organization? That's supposed to be one of Moyes' strengths and he had almost every defensive player we've got available yesterday.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Sorry Simon!

Also, let's not forget that during a two month barren period for RvP last season (around February), we still won seven games on the trot or something and Rooney was banging the goals in at the time. It's too simplistic in my eyes to have the view that "RvP won us the league", because it simply wasn't true. I'd say what he did was help us win the league in a more comfortable fashion and simultaneously mask a lot of the fundamental flaws in that squad, and it's fecking us over big time this season with his injuries.

 

[RedRover]

Many, including me, would disagree. If SAF had spent the money on a good midfielder instead of RvP I think we'd have won it. You really think RvP was the difference in nine points last season, potentially more if we hadn't won the league with three games to spare? I don't, I said before we signed him we'd win it.

If anything, SAF buying RvP has been a massive problem for Moyes now. He wasn't worth the long term cost.

You can argue that - but the point still stands. RVP or a midfielder - it would still be a quick fix when there are various issues with in the sqaud - although a midfielder may perhaps have been more useful now, going forward.

As it stands I do think RVP was a major difference - he scored key goals, and the team generated a lot of confidence from the signing of a genuinely world class player. There is also the fact that other top sides didnt perform well.

Bottom line - one player wasnt enough. He provided a quick fix to get Fergie his final trophy and the issues in the squad we had last year still remain. There is nothing, as it stands to "paper over the cracks", which for me is what the signing of RVP did last year.

 

[Massive Spanner]

You can argue that - but the point still stands. RVP or a midfielder - it would still be a quick fix when there are various issues with in the sqaud - although a midfielder may perhaps have been more useful now, going forward.

As it stands I do think RVP was a major difference - he scored key goals, and the team generated a lot of confidence from the signing of a genuinely world class player. There is also the fact that other top sides didnt perform well.

Bottom line - one player wasnt enough. He provided a quick fix to get Fergie his final trophy and the issues in the squad we had last year still remain. There is nothing, as it stands to "paper over the cracks", which for me is what the signing of RVP did last year.

Yes I should have been clearer, I think even without a midfielder instead of RvP last year, we'd have won it. He was not the difference in (at least) nine points, especially given how poor our rivals were.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Many, including me, would disagree. If SAF had spent the money on a good midfielder instead of RvP I think we'd have won it. You really think RvP was the difference in nine points last season, potentially more if we hadn't won the league with three games to spare? I don't, I said before we signed him we'd win it.

If anything, SAF buying RvP has been a massive problem for Moyes now. He wasn't worth the long term cost.

Not sure I agree with that - it's a problem in the sense that we're currently massively reliant on his fitness... but ultimately - he's a class player, and one of the few in our current squad.

Fact is, If SAF had still be in charge - I honestly don't see how we wouldn't have bought 3 or 4 players this Summer - and yes, one of them probably a midfielder or two.

 

[Adebesi]

You could argue buying RVP was like taking crack. It felt great at the time, of course. But now we are addicted to crack.

 

[Siorac]

Not sure I agree with that - it's a problem in the sense that we're currently massively reliant on his fitness... but ultimately - he's a class player, and one of the few in our current squad.

Fact is, If SAF had still be in charge - I honestly don't see how we wouldn't have bought 3 or 4 players this Summer - and yes, one of them probably a midfielder or two.

Pffft, crazy talk. He'd have signed a CB and maybe a left-back. Already had Zaha as his new toy on the flanks.

 

[Blue always red]

You could argue buying RVP was like taking crack. It felt great at the time, of course. But now we are addicted to crack.

Quite possibly thee greatest football metaphor I have ever seen. Great.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Not sure I agree with that - it's a problem in the sense that we're currently massively reliant on his fitness... but ultimately - he's a class player, and one of the few in our current squad.

Fact is, If SAF had still be in charge - I honestly don't see how we wouldn't have bought 3 or 4 players this Summer - and yes, one of them probably a midfielder or two.

It's not just about the signings though, it's the impact he had on other players. His signing was one of the reasons Rooney wanted out, it stalled Welbeck's development, it stopped Hernandez playing at all, it stopped Kagawa playing where he should've been playing quite a bit. it also made our squad look better than it was, at times, and Moyes, by the looks of things, came here thinking "they just won the title, it must be fine", and then RvP gets injured/doesn't perform and we're completely buggered.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It's not just about the signings though, it's the impact he had on other players. His signing was one of the reasons Rooney wanted out, it stalled Welbeck's development, it stopped Hernandez playing at all, it stopped Kagawa playing where he should've been playing quite a bit. it also made our squad look better than it was, at times, and Moyes, by the looks of things, came here thinking "they just won the title, it must be fine", and then RvP gets injured/doesn't perform and we're completely buggered.

But that's surely a failing of Moyes? Anyone who watched us properly last season would have known our strengths and weaknesses and remedied them effectively in the summer - and to be fair to Moyes - he did try... the club just wasn't very competant about it.

 

[Massive Spanner]

But that's surely a failing of Moyes? Anyone who watched us properly last season would have known our strengths and weaknesses and remedied them effectively in the summer - and to be fair to Moyes - he did try... the club just wasn't very competant about it.

Oh it definitely is to an extent, but still, I think certain players would've been in a better position this season had RvP not been signed, I think our flaws would've been more obvious and I think we'd have likely been more forceful as a club in the transfer window too.

I blame SAF for a lot of the problems we currently have, really, and I think getting RvP contributed to that. I know he's a great player and that probably sounds a bit mental given what he did for us last season, but that's just how I feel.

 

[Thisistheone]

This, in my view, will not be allowed to happen.

The debt the club has been saddled with needs to be serviced. The club must therefore, have a modicum of success, at the very least qualifying for the CL every year. If not income falls and most importanly the brand is damaged around the world.

Thw whole business appears to be a financial house of cards. Football clubs are not like other business selling a tangible product to consumers - its all very dependant on how well the club are doing. Fans are fickle - especially in the markets where football is a novelty - like in the far east, the places UNited seem to generate a lot of their income and commercial deals.

Agree but what if, and I'm not saying it is the case, but what if the Glazers just intend to keep Moyes, give him just enough money to finish top 3 or 4 and hope he can work wonders, have us punching above our weight to win the odd league or cup?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Oh it definitely is to an extent, but still, I think certain players would've been in a better position this season had RvP not been signed, I think our flaws would've been more obvious and I think we'd have likely been more forceful as a club in the transfer window too.

I blame SAF for a lot of the problems we currently have, really, and I think getting RvP contributed to that. I know he's a great player and that probably sounds a bit mental given what he did for us last season, but that's just how I feel.

I can't bring myself to blame SAF too much - even if he did neglect the midfield for the longest time - because ultimately, his responsibilities ended when he retired. SAF had a target of winning the league last season - and so he did what he had to do to acheive it. No one can say we didn't deserve to win the league last year - and RVP was a massive part of that.

SAF is still around this summer, he probably sets his targets at retaining the league and progressing further in the CL - he therefore looks at our strenghtening title rivals - as well as the clubs on the continent - and strengthens accordingly. Frankly - I don't think our flaws should ever need to be that obvious before something is done about them.

Still, if SAF specifically didn't advise Moyes to buy a few players in the summer - then i'd put much more blame with him.

 

[Varun]

I think many would. Michael Laudrup for one. Managers have said no to big clubs for one reason or the other. It certainly takes a kind of braveness. The stress is huge. But that's more the job than anything else.

One of the problems with Moyes is that he often talks about it like it's not a bigger deal. Just another day being a football manager. I reckon some of that wibe has been spread to the players. Slumps are one thing but a constant shitfest is either to do with their mentality, not being good enough or a mix of both.

I don't know what you're basing that on but even if you're right, it tells more about Laudrup being a coward than Moyes being brave. There are challenges, ofcourse there are, like with any other job in the world, but to turn down the chance to manage Manchester United just because you have to succeed SAF is cowardly.

 

[Varun]

You don´t need to handpick completely new players on the transfer market to at least show signs of the style you want to play.

I give you an example:

When Klopp took over Dortmund in 2008, we were 14th in the league with the worst defense. His style of football centers around three core themes: pressing, movement and directness. The squad he inherited was downright mediocre, so it was not capable of playing the kind of football it does today.

They were clear instant changes in the way we played, though. We began to press, stood more stable and the play against and without the ball improved. He did all that without bringing a single player into the team. He simply made changes in the training and the tactics.

Now, I don´t want to take Klopp as a measure stick, because he made us overperform for years and the extend of improvement is rather the exception of the rule, but an underperforming of the level of what United does right now would have ment the clear danger of relegation for Dortmund back then. He would not have lasted until the end of the season and rightfully so.




Mourinho would be a complete different case, because he is a proven title winner. He would have had the reputation to demand large spendings.

Good post and absolutely spot on.

I dont know why people here believe that he needs to get his players in first before he can stamp his style on the team. Okay, he might not get everything right with the existing group but atleast some changes should be visible. I see nothing of it so far. He's just continued what SAF did minus the charisma or the determination and its showing.

 

[Siorac]

Good post and absolutely spot on.

I dont know why people here believe that he needs to get his players in first before he can stamp his style on the team. Okay, he might not get everything right with the existing group but atleast some changes should be visible. I see nothing of it so far. He's just continued what SAF did minus the charisma or the determination and its showing.

The idea that he should "create his own team" and make it "his squad" is obviously nonsense. What if it doesn't work out even then? Will the next manager also be given the time and the funds to create his own team, make the squad his own? We can't afford that, we don't have the money to rebuild every couple of summers. A manager has to prove he can work well with the players already at his disposal. He had an entire summer to make additions, now he has to show he deserves more money and time.

 

[NoLogo]

It's not a bad squad but it's not a squad that screams "biggest club in the world" either. We have lost a lot of quality over the years due to players leaving, a lot of injuries and an aging squad. We also didn't do too well on the transfer-market, van Persie being really the only outstanding deal we have done in the last 4 or 5 years. Januzaj and van Persie seem like the only really bright lights that were added to the squad in this time period and that's just not enough when you look at how much our competition has improved during that time.

 

[Adebesi]

The idea that he should "create his own team" and make it "his squad" is obviously nonsense. What if it doesn't work out even then? Will the next manager also be given the time and the funds to create his own team, make the squad his own? We can't afford that, we don't have the money to rebuild every couple of summers. A manager has to prove he can work well with the players already at his disposal. He had an entire summer to make additions, now he has to show he deserves more money and time.

Making it "his squad" isnt entirely about signing new players it is about winning the dressing room. Once the memory of SAF has faded a bit that will be easier, the circumstances Moyes finds himself in are unique and subsequent managers (if it comes to that) will have an advantage of sorts - at least in that one way. If things dont turn around soon for Moyes history will probably judge that he was the problem and the next manager will get a bounce purely for not being him. But I dont think that would apply yet, if we sacked Moyes now I think the new manager would be under incredible pressure to turn things around quickly while the ghost of SAF would still loom large.

 

[RedRover]

That's actually not a fact at all, that is an assertion I happen to disagree with, Ive just been discussing the very point with Cina in another thread. If RVP had gone to Juve (too complicated thinking about what impact he would have had on City if he had gone there) and we had Rooney playing as our 9 and Kagawa playing as 10, which is presumably what was originally intended, I believe we would still have won the league.

Certainly I believe Rooney would have scored the goals that RVP did to get us through games and keep us up there, he was class up front the year before so I see no reason to believe he would have suddenly gone off the boil. OK it is impossible to know how Kagawa would have settled in but in terms of the job RVP did specifically, I think Rooney would have done it anyway.

Fair enough.

I personally think signing a player of that quality did a lot for the club - both in terms of how good we were on the field, and in terms of the players confidence. He was the form forward in the PL the year before and to sign him was a massive coup for the club and the fans, and deflected criticism of the type that we're seeing a lot - namely that they've not been active enough in the transfer market. Everyone was happy about it and there was probably much less pressure as a result.

For me it was like the Ozil singing at Arsenal in that regar, which seems to have bouyed the players. I personally dont think Kagawa, as well as he may have done, would have that effect.

Regardless, its a bit of a moot point, as my suggestion is that the siging of RVP was a short term fix which ignored significant issues elsewhere in the squad.

 

[Zen86]

The idea that he should "create his own team" and make it "his squad" is obviously nonsense. What if it doesn't work out even then? Will the next manager also be given the time and the funds to create his own team, make the squad his own? We can't afford that, we don't have the money to rebuild every couple of summers. A manager has to prove he can work well with the players already at his disposal. He had an entire summer to make additions, now he has to show he deserves more money and time.

It's funny how you would rather see Moyes and United fail rather than him having a chance of success

Shit fans indeed.

 

[Adebesi]

to sign him was a massive coup for the club and the fans, and deflected criticism of the type that we're seeing a lot - namely that they've not been active enough in the transfer market.

That is actually a big part of the argument I would make. If you do X to paper over a crack, but you dont fix the crack, can you say X was a good thing? If X hadnt happened maybe youre forced to actually fix the crack.

 

[Siorac]

It's funny how you would rather see Moyes and United fail rather than him having a chance of success

Shit fans indeed.

I'd appreciate if you didn't spout completely unfounded rubbish about me because I never said I want United or Moyes to fail.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Talking Vulture]

Absolutely.

The way some talk here, they'd have you believe this squad is shite and deserves to be where it is.

Its comfortably a squad that should be challenging for the title.

Um, we do deserve to be where we are. We have been woeful

Under Saf, he got the best out of average players. Moyes can't do that because he isn't good enough.

 

[smallred]

our squad is a really good one...the problem is our first 11.

all we need is a couple of really top quality attacking players and we are ok, but Moyes and Woodward f8cked it all up in the summer.

next summer we will need to replace Rio, Evra and Giggs and there is where the big challenge and focus now lies.


the amount of people who haev turned on our players however, is shocking.

 

[RedRover]

Agree but what if, and I'm not saying it is the case, but what if the Glazers just intend to keep Moyes, give him just enough money to finish top 3 or 4 and hope he can work wonders, have us punching above our weight to win the odd league or cup?

They may do. But long term, the club makes its money selling shirts and by being sponsored by anything and everything from potato crisps to airlines, cars and whatever else. Much easier to find these commercial partnerhips when you're "Premier League Champions", or if you're in the latter stages of the CL.

Turkish Airlines - or whoever, have no loyalty to the club - they'll give their money to whomever is doing well and on TV worldwide playing in big games. The Chelsea's, City's and others will easily take market share if that happens. Doesnt matter how succesful you have "been".

Its also the case that players themselves are massively popular in some places, more so that the teams. David Beckham was a huge star, despite the fact that he was playing in the MLS. You need star players to be commercially relevant as they're the figureheads of teh club commercially speaking.

 

[finneh]

In the Summer I genuinely thought Ferguson had left Moyes the perfect squad to put his "stamp" on. He had absolutely no work to do up front, which is the hardest and dearest position to bring in World Class talent. He had a defender in Ferdinand who was in the Premier League team of the year and is incredibly experienced, albeit obviously in need of resting. He had the vast experience of Vidic and Evans, as well as (potentially) quality defenders in Smalling, Jones and Rafael. He had the best midfielder in the League last season, as well as a decent set of attacking players in Nani, Kagawa, Valencia, Young and Zaha (as well as Januzaj who it seems was destined to feature). His job in the Summer seemed relatively simple. Get a deal for someone like Coentrao sorted early on and focus solely on central midfield. If a wide player became available then Zaha could be loaned, but collectively they couldn't perform worse than last season when we won the League. This was no more difficult than the job required by Wenger, Mourinho and less than Martinez.

Obviously the clusterfeck of a Summer meant we started the season with a squad worse than the one I thought we would start with. However it's a squad that should comfortably be in the top 3, even with the injuries we've had.

If Fergie was in charge I feel we'd be currently sandwiched somewhere between Liverpool and Chelsea with the opinion that once we get RVP and Rooney back we'll right in the thick of a title race (c. 5 points behind Arsenal). Even allowing for something ridiculous like Fergie being 10 points better than a competent replacement with this squad we should be looking to finish within 10-12 points of the eventual winners.

People talk about our glaring weaknesses and forget that other clubs' above us have first choice player's include Eto'o, Cahill, Mikel, Skrtel, Johnson, Toure, Distin, Pienaar etc. All player's that if playing consistently for us in our current system would be deemed "not good enough", but funnily enough also those who are performing more than adequately under the right guidance.

Getting the likes of Vidic, Carrick, Cleverley, Evans, Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Welbeck and Kagawa playing to a title challenging standard is Moyes' job and it certainly isn't an impossible one if you look at the jobs Wenger, Mourinho, Rodgers and Martinez are doing. The one thing that is certain is that Ferguson is not to blame for the current situation. He left Moyes with a really good squad which needed two or three quality additions to make it great, of which we got none.

 

[RedRover]

That is actually a big part of the argument I would make. If you do X to paper over a crack, but you dont fix the crack, can you say X was a good thing? If X hadnt happened maybe youre forced to actually fix the crack.

Perhaps.

To me this was one of Fergie's very few failings. He has made out for years that at United, he was the man who made all of the decisions, and that even when the Glazers came on board, this remained the case - the lack of transfer activity in recent years being because there was no "value". I suspect he was hamstrung in the market - even if he did make a very good fist of it and continue to bring success.

He was obviously well aware that a large scale rebuilding job weas needed, hence why he's left it to a younger man. The top quality players are retired or on the slide and what he have is not of the same standard.

As is often said - if you stand still in football you go backwards. The Glazers have been lucky to have had teh success they've had (and the consequent financial benefits which follow) for minimum outlay. This isnt rocket science - Moyes knows he needs better players and is trying to get them in. Its up to the club to make it happen.

 

[RedRover]

In the Summer I genuinely thought Ferguson had left Moyes the perfect squad to put his "stamp" on. He had absolutely no work to do up front, which is the hardest and dearest position to bring in World Class talent. He had a defender in Ferdinand who was in the Premier League team of the year and is incredibly experienced, albeit obviously in need of resting. He had the vast experience of Vidic and Evans, as well as (potentially) quality defenders in Smalling, Jones and Rafael. He had the best midfielder in the League last season, as well as a decent set of attacking players in Nani, Kagawa, Valencia, Young and Zaha (as well as Januzaj who it seems was destined to feature). His job in the Summer seemed relatively simple. Get a deal for someone like Coentrao sorted early on and focus solely on central midfield. If a wide player became available then Zaha could be loaned, but collectively they couldn't perform worse than last season when we won the League. This was no more difficult than the job required by Wenger, Mourinho and less than Martinez.

Obviously the clusterfeck of a Summer meant we started the season with a squad worse than the one I thought we would start with. However it's a squad that should comfortably be in the top 3, even with the injuries we've had.

If Fergie was in charge I feel we'd be currently sandwiched somewhere between Liverpool and Chelsea with the opinion that once we get RVP and Rooney back we'll right in the thick of a title race (c. 5 points behind Arsenal). Even allowing for something ridiculous like Fergie being 10 points better than a competent replacement with this squad we should be looking to finish within 10-12 points of the eventual winners.

People talk about our glaring weaknesses and forget that other clubs' above us have first choice player's include Eto'o, Cahill, Mikel, Skrtel, Johnson, Toure, Distin, Pienaar etc. All player's that if playing consistently for us in our current system would be deemed "not good enough", but funnily enough also those who are performing more than adequately under the right guidance.

Getting the likes of Vidic, Carrick, Cleverley, Evans, Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Welbeck and Kagawa playing to a title challenging standard is Moyes' job and it certainly isn't an impossible one if you look at the jobs Wenger, Mourinho, Rodgers and Martinez are doing. The one thing that is certain is that Ferguson is not to blame for the current situation. He left Moyes with a really good squad which needed two or three quality additions to make it great, of which we got none.

It isnt a "really good squad" if you need three "quality additions" - that's a third of your first XI.

To me the fact that his parting shot was to "get behind the manager at all costs" and to give him time tells me he knew the size of the job in hand.

 

[Thisistheone]

They may do. But long term, the club makes its money selling shirts and by being sponsored by anything and everything from potato crisps to airlines, cars and whatever else. Much easier to find these commercial partnerhips when you're "Premier League Champions", or if you're in the latter stages of the CL.

Turkish Airlines - or whoever, have no loyalty to the club - they'll give their money to whomever is doing well and on TV worldwide playing in big games. The Chelsea's, City's and others will easily take market share if that happens. Doesnt matter how succesful you have "been".

Its also the case that players themselves are massively popular in some places, more so that the teams. David Beckham was a huge star, despite the fact that he was playing in the MLS. You need star players to be commercially relevant as they're the figureheads of teh club commercially speaking.

Yeah very true.

Quite a big 6 months ahead...

 

[adexkola]

How many players on our awesome squad would walk into the first teams of Arsenal, Chelsea or City, this season?

In my head I can think of RVP, Rooney, DDG, Vidic. Maybe, maybe Hernandez, Carrick, Januzaj, Jones. 2 of the definite starters are injured, one isn't playing every game.

 

[RedRover]

How many players on our awesome squad would walk into the first teams of Arsenal, Chelsea or City, this season?

In my head I can think of RVP, Rooney, DDG, Vidic. Maybe, maybe Hernandez, Carrick, Januzaj, Jones. 2 of the definite starters are injured, one isn't playing every game.

To me its also about Moyes being able to put his stamp on the squad and bring in some exciting players to get the players, fans and the club on the up again.

At the moment it just feels like its still Fergie's team and Fergie's club - and that isn't right. The old boss is gone and isnt coming back, so the sooner the club, and everyone else moves on the better.

Its time for a lot of the under performing players to be moved on so Moyes can bring in his own players. Perhaps a lot of those players are now lacking in confidence because Fergie isnt there to put things right and take the stick when its not working. They need to trust Moyes - and if they don't, they need to be moved on.

Fergie did it time and again, moving players on - even if it might not appear to be the right decision, in the long term it generally worked ot. Moyes needs that luxury, as well as being given the money to get the players he wants.