No, and ours hasn't turned to shit overnight either.
This Isn't A Bad Squad
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No, and ours hasn't turned to shit overnight either.
Totally agree.
We've been underperforming as a team for a few seasons. The RVP signing covered many cracks in the team.
Absolutely. The signing of Ozil was hugely important on the confidence of the squad.
Just as the Ozil signing has proved a huge boost this year, I think addition to our midfield would have changed the performances. I really do.
Sorry, iPad went mental,
Yeah, but compare the two scenarios
Arsenal prior to signing Ozil, had an excellent second half of the season. They successfully bedded in Giroud, Cazorla was doing great, and Koscielny-Mertesacker were a promising partnership. They ended the season on a high. They cut several deadwood players from their squad. They started the season being blown out at home against Villa, but they recovered well by beating Spurs. Ramsey was imperious, Ozil was the icing on the cake. So they were on the rise prior to the Ozil signing.
We on the other hand after a legendary collapse that saw us relinquish the title to City, and subsequently bought Van Persie. Despite winning the league last season, all our attackers bar Van Persie had mediocre to poor seasons. Our midfield was non existent as usual. Our defense missed Vidic all of last season and his replacements were Rio a year younger, rawer versions of Jones and Smalling, and Evans. DDG was great. Our team play wasn't great. It was the same pass to Valencia, hope for the best. Difference was Van Persie. A year on, and he is injured. Without the underlying issues being addressed by Moyes or Ferguson.
I just don't see the similarities. Arsenal's signing of Ozil had the effect of raising the level of the entire team. Our signing of Van Persie just hid the fact we have had chronic underperformers in our ranks for a while.
Without all the injuries we'd have been challenging, the players who have been out at times are the ones who have propped us up. The squad is really good but with major structural weaknesses. The league is too good this year for us to cope,
We either need to get rid of the weaknesses or get another top player who can carry us.
We either need to get rid of the weaknesses or get another top player who can carry us.
Bolded is the best option. It will be more painful, however the result will be a team that can consistently dominate.
I see what you're saying. I wasn't talking of the van Persie signing, I was saying I think the addition of one (hopefully two) quality midfielders at last would see the squad begin to regenerate. The other developments could take place at a controlled rate and we'd still be there or thereabouts.
Agreed
Our problems are significant, but realistically I still think the sort of reshaping we need could be done in one summer window. We have maybe 4 problem areas - left back, centre back, midfield and wings. One signing in each of those areas whilst shifting the old guard and underperformers in those positions would seem like a big upheaval but is easily achievable.
If you wonder who I'd shift that would be Rio, Vidic, Evra, Young, Valencia, Giggs, Anderson.
The key is to have the right man in charge to make the most of what we've got and identify the right players to be brought in, which I do not have faith in currently. It also feels like many think just because certain players have been horribly misused or underused that they need to leave or they're not worthy of a place in the squad, which fuels the idea we've got bigger problems than we actually do. Fabio being a perfect example, Zaha, Nani, Kagawa being others.
If you wonder who I'd shift that would be Rio, Vidic, Evra, Young, Valencia, Giggs, Anderson.
The key is to have the right man in charge to make the most of what we've got and identify the right players to be brought in, which I do not have faith in currently. It also feels like many think just because certain players have been horribly misused or underused that they need to leave or they're not worthy of a place in the squad, which fuels the idea we've got bigger problems than we actually do. Fabio being a perfect example, Zaha, Nani, Kagawa being others.
Complete pillocks like Glen Hoddle like to say that our squad needs a complete rebuild, which is ludicrous. Not many other teams have excellent young players at GK, CB, RB, ST and AM(or wherever Januzaj plays), as well as two world class forwards. Yes, we need quality midfielders, and have done for a while; yes, Evra is past his best and we need a new option at LB. Depending on what happens with Zaha and Nani, we might need a winger, and if Evans can't find his form again we might need a first XI centre-half. That's not a complete rebuild by any stretch of the imagination.
You clearly don't sound like someone who wants him to succeed.
Agree with all that.
Not sure that you can compare Wengers ability to buidl teams to Moyes as Wengers has one of the best track records in the game with building young teams and most have his most promising teams were broken up due to financial restrictions before they got a chance to reach potential.........Moyes has a good track record of bringing kids through but no record as of yet of turning them into a winners
I'm very concerned by the bollocklessness of almost everyone in the team.
I recall a goal Ronaldo scored against Roma in the CL, Scholes clipped a hopeful (it was by no means a brilliant ball in was it?) cross into the box...it lacked danger and purpose but Ronaldo being the hungry goalscoring player he was, a headline chaser, a matchwinner etc...he must've ran 30 yards in 3 seconds and scored one of the best headed goals I've ever seen. It's those kind of moments which set players apart, win games and really set the tone for themselves and their team. I won't criticise someone like Januzaj but the majority of the senior players are really letting themselves down when it really matters.
I don't see anyone willing to do that for us now. No one will chase a lost cause or something that doesn't go in their anticipated direction.
I don't think it's a bad squad but I question the attitude of these guys at the moment. There's almost a sense of arrogance without even showing arrogance...they just sort of seem to expect things to fall into place. Perhaps lingering complacency rather than arrogance.
The acid test for me is how we perform if/when we get Rooney and RVP back in the team. If we're still losing, conceding and being hugely bland then it's clear there is a mentality problem or a problem stemming from the manager. If we start playing with some balls, take some chances and improve then perhaps the recent issues have been quality based (which is still a concern).
Same old story though. The core of the squad that achieved success from 06-13 had probably had it's last hurrah last season with the help of RVP. The lack of change in the spine of the team over the summer looks to be very damaging and whilst the squad isn't bad, it's simply not good enough either. But let's not discuss summer 2013, that's never pretty.
I recall a goal Ronaldo scored against Roma in the CL, Scholes clipped a hopeful (it was by no means a brilliant ball in was it?) cross into the box...it lacked danger and purpose but Ronaldo being the hungry goalscoring player he was, a headline chaser, a matchwinner etc...he must've ran 30 yards in 3 seconds and scored one of the best headed goals I've ever seen. It's those kind of moments which set players apart, win games and really set the tone for themselves and their team. I won't criticise someone like Januzaj but the majority of the senior players are really letting themselves down when it really matters.
I don't see anyone willing to do that for us now. No one will chase a lost cause or something that doesn't go in their anticipated direction.
I don't think it's a bad squad but I question the attitude of these guys at the moment. There's almost a sense of arrogance without even showing arrogance...they just sort of seem to expect things to fall into place. Perhaps lingering complacency rather than arrogance.
The acid test for me is how we perform if/when we get Rooney and RVP back in the team. If we're still losing, conceding and being hugely bland then it's clear there is a mentality problem or a problem stemming from the manager. If we start playing with some balls, take some chances and improve then perhaps the recent issues have been quality based (which is still a concern).
Same old story though. The core of the squad that achieved success from 06-13 had probably had it's last hurrah last season with the help of RVP. The lack of change in the spine of the team over the summer looks to be very damaging and whilst the squad isn't bad, it's simply not good enough either. But let's not discuss summer 2013, that's never pretty.
Some of the crap I've heard wit regards to our squad is annoying. I don't agree with this "we need a complete overhaul" attitude. We strolled the league title this year. And we have had some superb results/performances this season in the Champions League.
We are lacking 2 or 3 top quality players IMO. An overhaul isn't needed, this is a strong squad with good depth but just lacks genuine top quality (especially when RVP and Rooney are out)
We are lacking 2 or 3 top quality players IMO. An overhaul isn't needed, this is a strong squad with good depth but just lacks genuine top quality (especially when RVP and Rooney are out)
We've had 2 good vicotries over Leverkussen, a combination of them being really bad and we playing two of our best games. Every other game in the CL hasn't been special, just doing the bare minimum and we survived one of the easiest groups without being anything special (except in those 2 games versus Leverkussen).
We strolled the league year because Fergie was in charge and managed to get the best out of Ferdinand, Carrick, Rafa, DDG and because he had RVP scoring all the important goals. We won the league on a canter, but we didn't play the best football in the league, we were just very consistent, we always fought for the 3 points, we scored alot of last minute goals and we had a fair bit of luck on our side. Moyes doesn't seem to get the best out off his players, players don't want to fight anymore when we fall behind, we are anything but consistent, most players are terribly out of form and out of shape and we never score last minute winners anymore, instead we reverted to conceiding them. We play the poorest football from any team in the top 6 and if we finish in the spot we're currently in, it will have been deserved.
Our squad has been faulted for quite a couple of seasons now, it has grown worse by neglecting the midfield and by not replacing aging players and by the keeping the faith in players who have been nothing but letdowns year in year out. Ferguson managed to work around it, Moyes isn't able to and the weaknesses are becoming apparent in the games versus top sides. We definetly need 5-6 new players, but more important than that we also need a manager that can work with these players and get the best out of them, I doubt Moyes is that manager.
Sorry but we really dont have great quality in our depth. Have Hernandez and Welbeck really covered for the lack of Rooney and RVP?. Where is our depth out wide, in all seriousness our only real quality out wide has been from the kid. Nani is either injured or out of form, Young shouldnt even be here, Valencia is a one trick pony, Giggs is past it and Kagawa really doesnt want to be playing out wide. Also our wide backs. where is the depth?. Evra has had an awful season and Fabio and Buttner in all honesty dont give us much quality as backup to Evra. On the other side we are having to resort to using a CB or a RW as our back up to Rafael as again the rb backup options seriously just arent good enough. Then there is CM, do you really believe we have the quality in depth there?.
Nope, sorry we have a squad which does not have depth in back up options.
I agree completely, some people are going way overboard with the negativity about the squad. There is plenty of quality in this squad, but some players are lacking confidence and Moyes has yet to get a settled team with consistency.
I do think we need to clear out 5/6 players and replace them with 2 or 3 top class signings - a creative midfielder plus a fullback is a priority. To be fair, Moyes knows this as he tried to sign Fabregas/Baines/Coentrao in the summer - unfortunately it didnt happen and with bad injuries to compound the issue we are now paying the price.
Basing it on comments from himself where he said he didn't feel ready to manage a big club at this point in his career and therefor he'd turn them or Barca down if asked. Shortly after that numerous report said that he turned down Madrid after Mourinho's departure.
Understandable. Look at all the managers that managed England way too early in their careers. All failures.
United are different though. The job basically comes with a guarantee of patience like almost no other in the world.
If you take the 2 best attackers/strikers out of any team then they would struggle, in fact I would bet they would struggle a lot more than us. Take Negredo/Aguero out of City and leave Dzeko up top and they would struggle, same with Liverpool and Sturrigde/Suarez. Welbeck has done a fantastic job since Rooney/RVP have been out, he has looked great and you are being unrealistic/unfair if you expect him to do much better. Hernandez hasn't had much of a chance but has still scored goals. Not sure what more you would expect out of both of them tbh.
I agree with you on the wingers, left back and centre midfield. I said in my previous post that we are 2/3 good signings away from being competitive again. I think we need a central midfielder, left back and a winger/attacking midfield player.
This squad depth is strong, just missing some top quality.
You are spot on, like you are the majority of the time actually. Shame that a lot of fans just want a complete overhaul of the players who have won us trophy after trophy. 2/3 top signings will give the squad a needed quality boost and the whole club a lift
Rarely agree with Carragher but what he says at the end of this clip I back 100 per cent. The squad doesn't need an overhaul we just need 2-3 world class signings that can lift the side, call it the Ozil effect.
We have numbers but about half of all the players in the squad are either not good enough or past it.
For examples, how is Nani (inconsistent crock), Valencia (once good now awful), Giggs (41!), Kagawa (completely unproven here, if even a winger), and Januzaj (a beacon of hope but still only 18)... "Depth" on the wings!?
5 or 6 signings, of which 4 (2x CM, LB, winger) need to be top class first teamers.
For examples, how is Nani (inconsistent crock), Valencia (once good now awful), Giggs (41!), Kagawa (completely unproven here, if even a winger), and Januzaj (a beacon of hope but still only 18)... "Depth" on the wings!?
5 or 6 signings, of which 4 (2x CM, LB, winger) need to be top class first teamers.
Ever squad has players who arent great.
City have spent million and have Milner,Lescott,Richards,Garcia,Rodwell,Boyata,Kolarov,Demichelis who are are hardly world beaters. You could even add the over hyped Hart to that list. A lot of our average players seems to be wingers or CMs.
Its a bit of quality that we need alright. If we can get Mata plus another 3 proven players and a couple of youngsters to develop we will be fine.
So you want 4 top class and 2 youngsters that's a lot of cash
We are all witnesses, in the future, to our nephew we could say: I've watched the worst United squad ever in 2013/14
Er, ever? Relative to underlying uality maybe.
Maybe he means the worst matchday squad this year
"the worst United squad ever in 2013/14"
And he's right too. This is definitely up there among 2013/14's worst squads. Probably the worst. Ever.Maybe he means the worst matchday squad this year
"the worst United squad ever in 2013/14"
I seem to recall a game in which we played a back 3 of De Laet, Carrick and Fletcher and got humped 3-0 by Fulham.
We've not seen it so bad since those days
Agreed. It's been shit for quite a while.
It wasn't that great when we won last year - we had a lot of luck, an inspirational manager, and teams around us that weren't quite good enough/had bad luck.
Let's be realistic - it's been obvious for a while that the squad hasn't been strengthened with quality players.
Moyes has been unlucky with injuries. However, we'd still expect to turn over most of the teams who have taken points of us this season at Old Trafford. If Moyes can get Rooney, RvP, Adnan, Mata, Kagawa, and Carrick on the field and we still see mediocrity then I will seriously start questioning the coaching staff. These are seriously amongst the very best players in the world he can have at his disposal.
It's the injuries that have shown up the squad for what it is, though.
With our best players around them, the lesser players could still do a decent job imo. Without them, there's no spark.
The issue is we really can't have the very best in the world as squad players. They would have to be second tier players or young players making a career. Most of the players except DDG, Carrick and Rafael starting yesterday were not automatic starters even under Sir Alex. We had Rio, Vidic, Evra, Cleverley, Nani, Valencia, Rooney, Giggs and RvP missing who would have been starters last season.
Injuries are one thing but we still have a lot of quality players who should beat most teams we lost against this season
The difference is though, Sults, that our 2nd tier players can't cut it - we don't expect the whole team to be world class, but we do need to see an element of skill, a level of passion, and players who may not be world class, but are at least PL class.
Either our players don't fill this criteria, or something is seriously wrong with their mental state.
I'd say RvP, Rooney on the pitch with a few quality additions will make other lesser players better and give them confidence and a winning mentality. You're right though, this is too much of a sudden dip in form and confidence. We would have beaten some of these teams with our reserves.