This Isn't A Bad Squad
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God knows what went on in that transfer window, but he clearly didn't make the purchases he wanted to. Whether that was down to Moyes or Woodward we don't know, but I suspect it would have been a different story had Gill still been at the club.
no..it's not a bad squad...just not good enough for United and the challenges that there rivals are presenting. We are such a large club and I'm afraid the time when fergie could make a pretty average player seem great is over. We are entering a new era for United I think...
If it's not a bad squad, is it a bad manager?
That would be the suggestion
How they have faltered since his left! I'm surprised he got them finishing that high last season.
I disagree. I think the squad is poor. Full to the brim with past-its or average players.
I think there are barely a handful of players that would even be squaddies at the top European sides. That is ridiculous for a club that were flying so high in 2008.
I think there are barely a handful of players that would even be squaddies at the top European sides. That is ridiculous for a club that were flying so high in 2008.
How they have faltered since his left! I'm surprised he got them finishing that high last season.
Do you have a point or are you just stupid?
Ferguson was a master motivator, he could squeeze acceptable performances from some of the lesser players. I'm not sure any other manager could do that to a similar level. Also, some of our key players are in massive decline. It's only been touched on briefly on RedCafe, but Carrick has regressed massively this season.
De Gea and Lindegard are fine, but if Lindegard goes we need a number 2. Not really an issue, however.
Rafael is class, but we need better than a centre back covering him. Fabio's inability to be selected means we'll probably have to buy. Evans is a perfectly good back up, and Jones and Smalling can compete for the place that Vidic will vacate at the end of the season. We probably need one centre back, a top quality one, but the depth is good.
Evra is muck, but he will be replaced.
The depth in central midfield isn't awful as Fellaini, Fletcher, Carrick, Nick Powell and Cleverley are capable back ups. I think this is really Carrick's last season as an automatic starter and I'd lack to see him replaced with a more balanced midfield, often I feel like the biggest hindrance in forming an effective midfield is that Carrick for his individual brilliance is a difficult player to naturally partner. I'd like two signings here, a 'grafter' (although I'd like them to have more to their game than that) and a player who is a touch more creative.
The wings are muck and we all know that, Giggs doesn't count which leaves us with Januzaj, Zaha, Lingard and Nani who should be kept but I feel like thats easily fixed. An absolute top quality left winger, and I'd like to see a player with more to his game than a dime to the dozen speed merchant like Lucas Moura, and we should be ok here.
Perhaps controversially, despite the amazing form of Negredo, Aguero and Dzeko and the SAS (
) I still think we have the best strike force in the league. Rooney and Van Persie are world class; Welbeck and Hernandez are more than adequate back ups. The biggest problem up front is the lack of service. We have no real need to strengthen here unless Rooney leaves, in which case we're fecked. It would probably necessitate a change in system because, possibly Diego Costa aside, I just can't see any available forwards who would compare, and I'm not even sure about Costa.
If we do change system to a continental 4-2-3-1 with a number 10 (I say change, but not really, you know what I mean) I think we'd have to reduce striker numbers, Hernandez would be the most likely to go but, with Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj, we're well stocked here, even if I don't feel like Rooney provides anywhere near the creativity he should from here nor do I think Kagawa is good enough to cut the mustard.
I started off with the comment 'our squad isn't actually that bad' and was going to vehemently disagree with those who said it is, but its clear, I think, from any objective analysis that we are going to have to overhaul areas of it.
We need, in my opinion, clearly in order of priority:
2 first choice midfielders
1 first choice left back
1 first choice winger (if Nani is to be as underused as he currently is then two)
1 first choice ball playing centre half
1 back up left back
1 back up right back
1 first choice striker (were Rooney to go)
1 back up goalkeeper (If Lindegard goes)
I make that 7 players we definitely need, 10 if things pan out that way, and I've tried be as conservative as I can here.
In order to make room for this these are the players I expect to leave/have a diminished role in the team:
Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick, Giggs, Büttner, Fabio
Alongside players who probably should leave but won't necessarily do so
Young, Valencia,
and those that may go out on loan
Powell, Lingard, Cleverley, Zaha
I can't really see this happening.
Rafael is class, but we need better than a centre back covering him. Fabio's inability to be selected means we'll probably have to buy. Evans is a perfectly good back up, and Jones and Smalling can compete for the place that Vidic will vacate at the end of the season. We probably need one centre back, a top quality one, but the depth is good.
Evra is muck, but he will be replaced.
The depth in central midfield isn't awful as Fellaini, Fletcher, Carrick, Nick Powell and Cleverley are capable back ups. I think this is really Carrick's last season as an automatic starter and I'd lack to see him replaced with a more balanced midfield, often I feel like the biggest hindrance in forming an effective midfield is that Carrick for his individual brilliance is a difficult player to naturally partner. I'd like two signings here, a 'grafter' (although I'd like them to have more to their game than that) and a player who is a touch more creative.
The wings are muck and we all know that, Giggs doesn't count which leaves us with Januzaj, Zaha, Lingard and Nani who should be kept but I feel like thats easily fixed. An absolute top quality left winger, and I'd like to see a player with more to his game than a dime to the dozen speed merchant like Lucas Moura, and we should be ok here.
Perhaps controversially, despite the amazing form of Negredo, Aguero and Dzeko and the SAS (
) I still think we have the best strike force in the league. Rooney and Van Persie are world class; Welbeck and Hernandez are more than adequate back ups. The biggest problem up front is the lack of service. We have no real need to strengthen here unless Rooney leaves, in which case we're fecked. It would probably necessitate a change in system because, possibly Diego Costa aside, I just can't see any available forwards who would compare, and I'm not even sure about Costa.If we do change system to a continental 4-2-3-1 with a number 10 (I say change, but not really, you know what I mean) I think we'd have to reduce striker numbers, Hernandez would be the most likely to go but, with Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj, we're well stocked here, even if I don't feel like Rooney provides anywhere near the creativity he should from here nor do I think Kagawa is good enough to cut the mustard.
I started off with the comment 'our squad isn't actually that bad' and was going to vehemently disagree with those who said it is, but its clear, I think, from any objective analysis that we are going to have to overhaul areas of it.
We need, in my opinion, clearly in order of priority:
2 first choice midfielders
1 first choice left back
1 first choice winger (if Nani is to be as underused as he currently is then two)
1 first choice ball playing centre half
1 back up left back
1 back up right back
1 first choice striker (were Rooney to go)
1 back up goalkeeper (If Lindegard goes)
I make that 7 players we definitely need, 10 if things pan out that way, and I've tried be as conservative as I can here.
In order to make room for this these are the players I expect to leave/have a diminished role in the team:
Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick, Giggs, Büttner, Fabio
Alongside players who probably should leave but won't necessarily do so
Young, Valencia,
and those that may go out on loan
Powell, Lingard, Cleverley, Zaha
I can't really see this happening.
Agree 100%, Ferguson had a unique way of making a team far greater than the sum of its parts.
This squad, with RvP, Rooney, Carrick and Rafael suffering from the injuries they've had, is in no way good enough to win the title. Even if SAF was still in charge we wouldn't win title this year. If RvP had these injuries last year we wouldn't have won then either. That's not even taking our rivals' improvements into account.
Moyes is certainly underperforming but I really can't understand how anyone could see this team as likely title winners. Our midfield today was Young, Carrick, Jones and Valencia ffs. How depressingly ordinary is that?
It's not like this has come out of the blue either, it's been regularly pointed out over the last few years that we were in decline. Some fans needed to see a decline in results before they realised that.
Still, he got one player he definitely wanted and we paid big money for him.
After all this, it's absolutely reasonable to expect him to show at least some competence in managing at this level before he's given more funds. He never worked at a club like this and if he can't get even the minimum (not the best but the very minimum) out of these players then I really see no reason why he should be given more money. That is the point: we cannot afford to let a manager build an entirely new team according to his ideas if he cannot demonstrate that he is cut out for the job in any way. He has to show something, some proof that he's got what it takes at this level. Otherwise it's just blind faith and football doesn't really work like that.
It's debatable whether he even wanted Fellaini that much IMO, but again, that's all part of the big clusterfeck that was the summer transfer window.
We need a top class midfielder, left back and winger at a minimum, that will be the case whoever is in charge. Now or in two years time.
De Gea and Lindegard are fine, but if Lindegard goes we need a number 2. Not really an issue, however.
Rafael is class, but we need better than a centre back covering him. Fabio's inability to be selected means we'll probably have to buy. Evans is a perfectly good back up, and Jones and Smalling can compete for the place that Vidic will vacate at the end of the season. We probably need one centre back, a top quality one, but the depth is good.
Evra is muck, but he will be replaced.
The depth in central midfield isn't awful as Fellaini, Fletcher, Carrick, Nick Powell and Cleverley are capable back ups. I think this is really Carrick's last season as an automatic starter and I'd lack to see him replaced with a more balanced midfield, often I feel like the biggest hindrance in forming an effective midfield is that Carrick for his individual brilliance is a difficult player to naturally partner. I'd like two signings here, a 'grafter' (although I'd like them to have more to their game than that) and a player who is a touch more creative.
The wings are muck and we all know that, Giggs doesn't count which leaves us with Januzaj, Zaha, Lingard and Nani who should be kept but I feel like thats easily fixed. An absolute top quality left winger, and I'd like to see a player with more to his game than a dime to the dozen speed merchant like Lucas Moura, and we should be ok here.
Perhaps controversially, despite the amazing form of Negredo, Aguero and Dzeko and the SAS (
If we do change system to a continental 4-2-3-1 with a number 10 (I say change, but not really, you know what I mean) I think we'd have to reduce striker numbers, Hernandez would be the most likely to go but, with Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj, we're well stocked here, even if I don't feel like Rooney provides anywhere near the creativity he should from here nor do I think Kagawa is good enough to cut the mustard.
I started off with the comment 'our squad isn't actually that bad' and was going to vehemently disagree with those who said it is, but its clear, I think, from any objective analysis that we are going to have to overhaul areas of it.
We need, in my opinion, clearly in order of priority:
2 first choice midfielders
1 first choice left back
1 first choice winger (if Nani is to be as underused as he currently is then two)
1 first choice ball playing centre half
1 back up left back
1 back up right back
1 first choice striker (were Rooney to go)
1 back up goalkeeper (If Lindegard goes)
I make that 7 players we definitely need, 10 if things pan out that way, and I've tried be as conservative as I can here.
In order to make room for this these are the players I expect to leave/have a diminished role in the team:
Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick, Giggs, Büttner, Fabio
Alongside players who probably should leave but won't necessarily do so
Young, Valencia,
and those that may go out on loan
Powell, Lingard, Cleverley, Zaha
I can't really see this happening.
These kind of posts somewhat overstate the problems. I keep seeing that it's important to get a better back-up to Rafael but really, is it? I mean our fabled 07/08 squad - which was brilliant, don't get me wrong - had Wes Brown as its first-choice right-back. I really don't think he was significantly better than Smalling as an RB. Not Rafael, Smalling.
Our back-up to Rio and Vidic at the time were a young Piqué, an even younger Evans who was nowhere near ready, a perma-crocked Silvestre, O'Shea who really wasn't very good as a CB and... that's it. Evra's deputy was John O'Shea.
What I'm saying is that when you look at rebuilding, you don't have to fill up the entire squad with brilliant players. We just need players in key positions who perform on a reliably high level - because they LIFT EVERYONE ELSE. If we bring in real quality in certain positions, our written-off squad players will look a lot better because they won't have to take as much responsibility.
De Gea and Lindegard are fine, but if Lindegard goes we need a number 2. Not really an issue, however.
Rafael is class, but we need better than a centre back covering him. Fabio's inability to be selected means we'll probably have to buy. Evans is a perfectly good back up, and Jones and Smalling can compete for the place that Vidic will vacate at the end of the season. We probably need one centre back, a top quality one, but the depth is good.
Evra is muck, but he will be replaced.
The depth in central midfield isn't awful as Fellaini, Fletcher, Carrick, Nick Powell and Cleverley are capable back ups. I think this is really Carrick's last season as an automatic starter and I'd lack to see him replaced with a more balanced midfield, often I feel like the biggest hindrance in forming an effective midfield is that Carrick for his individual brilliance is a difficult player to naturally partner. I'd like two signings here, a 'grafter' (although I'd like them to have more to their game than that) and a player who is a touch more creative.
The wings are muck and we all know that, Giggs doesn't count which leaves us with Januzaj, Zaha, Lingard and Nani who should be kept but I feel like thats easily fixed. An absolute top quality left winger, and I'd like to see a player with more to his game than a dime to the dozen speed merchant like Lucas Moura, and we should be ok here.
Perhaps controversially, despite the amazing form of Negredo, Aguero and Dzeko and the SAS (
If we do change system to a continental 4-2-3-1 with a number 10 (I say change, but not really, you know what I mean) I think we'd have to reduce striker numbers, Hernandez would be the most likely to go but, with Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj, we're well stocked here, even if I don't feel like Rooney provides anywhere near the creativity he should from here nor do I think Kagawa is good enough to cut the mustard.
I started off with the comment 'our squad isn't actually that bad' and was going to vehemently disagree with those who said it is, but its clear, I think, from any objective analysis that we are going to have to overhaul areas of it.
We need, in my opinion, clearly in order of priority:
2 first choice midfielders
1 first choice left back
1 first choice winger (if Nani is to be as underused as he currently is then two)
1 first choice ball playing centre half
1 back up left back
1 back up right back
1 first choice striker (were Rooney to go)
1 back up goalkeeper (If Lindegard goes)
I make that 7 players we definitely need, 10 if things pan out that way, and I've tried be as conservative as I can here.
In order to make room for this these are the players I expect to leave/have a diminished role in the team:
Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick, Giggs, Büttner, Fabio
Alongside players who probably should leave but won't necessarily do so
Young, Valencia,
and those that may go out on loan
Powell, Lingard, Cleverley, Zaha
I can't really see this happening.
Agree with a lot of that, except...
1. Nani could easily go too. An average winger who isn't going to live up to his original potential.
2. I doubt we'd actually need all seven players. If we got the first four you mentioned they'd be able to carry the rest of our squad to the extent that we win the PL. If we got five we'd be an excellent team.
I heard a stat on today's broadcast. RVP and Rooney have only played in 7 matches together (I'm assuming in the EPL). That's been the biggest issue. They were 5-2-0 in thos matches. Now, I haven't checked the oppositions in those matches, but clearly they would make a big difference. Had they been in today's match (at Chelsea), I would have expected a different result. The chances United squandered in the first half cost them a chance at the points.
The squad is good, but needs improving. It's our tactical approach and our ability to play good football which is concerning me the most. I believe there are alot of teams in the Premier League who have much worse players than we do, but still manage to pass rings around us. The Southampton game for example, I don't believe they have a single player better than what we have in any position, but they made us look silly with their movement off the ball and their link up play.
If Moyes does get the boot, I'd like to see us go for one of these trendy young managers, with their progressive tactics and fluid player roles.
If Moyes does get the boot, I'd like to see us go for one of these trendy young managers, with their progressive tactics and fluid player roles.
I don't buy that. Rooney hasn't missed that much football and we've dropped points when he and Van Persie have both been fit and available. There remains two very good strikers in Welbeck and Hernandez who have both contributed heavily to recent title winning campaigns. Carrick has been god-awful when he has been on the pitch and Rafael has hardly impressed either. Lack of goals from our wide players and midfielders have been a hindrance but Januzaj has been tremendous and a real quality addition from last season.
There is enough quality for a title "challenge." I've never believed for one second that United would successfully defend the title this year, but I didn't expect the limpest ever defence in the Premier League era (perhaps Blackburn in 1996 edges it although that remains to be seen.)
I feel like the problem with Rafael is injuries, if he was remotely capable of staying consistently fit it wouldn't be an issue.
For your Wes Brown comparison, he managed to play 52 games that season, Rafael in his career has never managed more than 37, and that was last season. Even though Wes Brown was not as good a right back, his consistency of form and fitness in that season meant that we were able to get away with it. It's the frequency and regularity of the injuries we suffer across the back four that necessitates the numbers we need.
Of course, if Moyes actually rated Fabio we would have the player we needed to cover both left and right back, but he obviously doesn't. Put it this way if, as I've predicted Ferdinand retires, Evra leaves, Buttner leaves and Vidic leaves or is not deemed first choice and we do not sign anyone baring a left back and a back up. Then injuries to Evans and Rafael, presumably first choice in this scenario, leave us with Jones and Smalling at centre-back and a player playing out of position.
Nani could, but I don't see why he should.
This is not a bad squad. however its perplexes me that we could have got players like Hazard/ Moura on those wings.. with Felliani money
Well not a bad squad but a bad manager...
This squad pissed all over the PL last year but sadly SAF last pick looks to cost us dearly!
This squad pissed all over the PL last year but sadly SAF last pick looks to cost us dearly!
I think many would. Michael Laudrup for one. Managers have said no to big clubs for one reason or the other. It certainly takes a kind of braveness. The stress is huge. But that's more the job than anything else.
One of the problems with Moyes is that he often talks about it like it's not a bigger deal. Just another day being a football manager. I reckon some of that wibe has been spread to the players. Slumps are one thing but a constant shitfest is either to do with their mentality, not being good enough or a mix of both.
It's not just the manager or the player, it's everybody, from Woodward down. Collectively they have been utter shit and if everyone was being paid on performance related pay the glazers would not be forking out very much at all. Quite honestly for a start I'd love ten minutes in the locker room with moyes and the squad, to explain to them how fecking hard people have to work to be able to afford to watch the club they love, and that what they have been giving the supporters is fecking unacceptable garbage. When you have blokes grinding away in shit jobs 70 hours a fecking week to come and watch the team, then they play like they are playing for fecking stoke or someone it makes us sick. They should have their fecking bentleys firebombed and moved to inner city fecking tower blocks and paid minimum wage until they fecking earn something else, manager and Woodward included. Over paid underperforming prima donnas who think they are the fecking bollocks because they won the league last year, whoop de fecking doo cnuts, saf and keane always said the Same thing, last season means feck all, wankers the lot of them.
Very good post and exactly the reason why I am not sure Moyes should be trusted with big funds. The way He sets us up tactically with those dinosaur ideas of gis make me wonder for which type of players he would be going and whether he would be able to get the best out of them. You dont need to change the whole squad to make your team play different Football and on the other hand even very good players will struggle when your Manager makes tactical mistakes
All Id love to see is employ more movement and pressing and a better passing game. You can do that with the players we have but so far there is not much change to see at all sadly
I find it ironic that one of Mourinho's most commonly appointed faults is how he left Inter with an unbalanced and ageing squad not ready for the future even though he squeezed a treble out of them before leaving. They then got 2nd in Serie A and are now in the sad state of affairs we all know.
I don't think SAF did a much better job here. Squeezed an amazing league performance past season, but it looked far from being a good enough team for the future, with the best players apart from Rooney and RvP well past their peak.
Don't think either is to blame for their successor's failures. But it's nice to put one of Mourinho's biggest "flaws" in perspective.
I don't think SAF did a much better job here. Squeezed an amazing league performance past season, but it looked far from being a good enough team for the future, with the best players apart from Rooney and RvP well past their peak.
Don't think either is to blame for their successor's failures. But it's nice to put one of Mourinho's biggest "flaws" in perspective.
I can get your point though, it is a bit different where one jump ships to another team, while the other retires from management fully.
Completely agree with you, although I feel there will be a lot of transfers this summer because there will probably be close to 10 players leaving due to things out of our control. Fabio, Evra, Rio, Vidic contract, maybe Giggs retiring, Anderson permanently leaving, Hernandez and Kagawa to push for a transfer for first team football, one of our wingers sold due to shitness, then Rooney/RVP might push to leave since we won't get top 4 (Rooney probably will anyways). All these players leaving would require us to bring in a lot of players. The things that are absolutely imperative to buy is 2 top class central midfielders and a left back. The rest I think would be capable of raising their game to a good standard (if we use Nani/Januzaj/Kagawa and not Young and Valencia), although I feel like we'd want to still buy a top center back and a winger. Usually a good thing is to have 1 world class player per position. We used to have VDS, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo and Rooney. Now we have Rooney and RVP, and then De Gea in net. Our defenders and midfielders are all so far from that level, and apart from Januzaj and potentially Jones in 4 years, won't get there or anywhere close. That's why I think it is important to bring in a world class midfielder to take charge in the middle of the pitch and somebody in defence who the rest will look up to and so he can organize them and raise their games like Vidic used to.
Of course there is that difference, both managers loyalty or apparent lack of it isn't in question. I don't think that works too much in favour of Sir Alex Ferguson in this particular comparison though. Mourinho left relatively suddenly for a better job (just like when he left Porto for Chelsea) and didn't plan ahead for it (and probably wouldn't feel it was his responsibility to do so - at Porto it certainly wasn't), Sir Alex Ferguson had all the time in the world to prepare a smoother transition. Not only it can be debated whether his replacement was a wise choice, he also seems to have left him a harder job than expected at first.
I'd agree that SAF could have prepared a smoother transition, but in the end what he did leave didn't look that bad at all while he was here. We had Rio/Vidic on the way out, but their replacements already at the club. Forwards were good for a few more years at least and arguably the best in the league.
All the next manager really had to address was a hole in the midfield that a quality first signing could fill. Then really LB that need a replacement/successor brought in for evra if they didn’t want to back Fabio. And an upgrade on the wings if they wanted on.
Really as a successor, I would probably prefer to come into a situation with a few known weaknesses and money to fix them how I wanted to, instead of someone else trying to fix them for me in a way that may not suit me. Problem is really, Moyes has just failed at this point to address the weaknesses before the season started and hasn’t been able to get the same level of performances out of players that SAF could.
That I fully agree with and hence said in my first post that they can't be to blame for their successor's failures. My intended tone was more of defending Mourinho's "flaw" than blaming SAF, using the later as an example. I know Mourinho isn't the subject of this thread, just saw it as a fit context to get my point across.
Ah right, I'd agree with you then. In the end each of their successors have a team that is only a year older and has drastically dropped in level. I'd put that on the successors head instead of trying to blame the guy who clearly did a better job with the same players.
The squad definitively isn't bad. It won the league last year. Injuries and poor management have been the difference.. Wish the Apologists would stop blaming our players to cover up Moyes inability to manage and inspire them to play to their potential.
How's Rooney been looking?
I think Rio's the only one who has gone through a proper individual decline this season.
Not good. Did you notice he's not been playing lately?
Did you notice when he does play he's far younger than Rio, making your point ridiculous?
I think Evra's problems are from being overplayed. Now that is a managerial mistake for not signing cover they can trust to give Patrice a rest now and again.
It's quite obvious what he means: Rio declined but Rooney improved from last season. There's also Januzaj, another player we didn't have in the squad last season, who's one of our best players now.
It's beyond simplistic to say that last year's title winning squad simply regressed on an individual level. Not true at all. The injury excuses are quite flimsy as well. Rooney started only 22 out of the 38 Premier League games last season. Vidic appeared in a total of 23 games throughout 2012/13 and now he's already at 20. We didn't have Fletcher at all, now we do. We didn't have Fellaini either. Nani's been struggling with injuries throughout the last season as well.
If you're suggesting that we're a one-man team, entirely reliant on Robin van Persie to make us look like anywhere near a half-decent side then fair enough. I'd still completely disagree but at least he's undoubtedly a key player who's been out for long periods compared to last season. I do not think we were a one-man show last season though. I mean between the draw at Spurs and the loss to City we won seven league games in a row even though RvP scored only once.
Jones would have got the famous hairdryer treatment from Fergie for that defending for Chelsea's first goal. Maybe Moyes gave him something similar, it's just a case of whether Jones cares or not. This squad is not playing for Moyes. Blame whoever you want for that but that's the unusual situation we're faced with.