Logic 1 Varun 0
Sorry Varun. You fought hard.
Sorry Varun. You fought hard.
This Isn't A Bad Squad
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brave
No one would have turned it down. You're getting paid brilliantly and getting to manage at the highest level possible with great resources of your disposal. Isn't that what managers eventually aim for?
Also, no we don't need to wait for another season. IMO one season is enough to judges him by. Especially if he can't get this team into the top 4. He doesn't deserve another year in that case. It tells plenty about his abilities as a manager or at least suitability for united if he's that bad.
Its very debatable if there are "great resources" at his disposal.
Seems logical. Owners would be better off sacking incompetent managers than allowing them to continue to spend their transfer budget in the absence of results.
This.
No it isn't. See the last 7 seasons for evidence. Unless you have anything more conclusive.
Why would they hire incompetent managers in the first place?
Apart from baffling team selections (which I think will take him time to settle into), I honestly believe Mourinho couldn't get this squad in the top 4.
I agree with everything you said, but especially this part. The likes of Young, Cleverley and Valencia would be OK if we weren't relying on them week in, week out. They're the sort of players that should be working hard to displace regular first team members or face being transferred, not playing as starters in big games like Chelsea away.
Edit: I know Cleverley didn't play today, but Fletcher already looks better and he hasn't played regular football for two years.
The truth is somewhere in between. This side is the weakest side SAF has ever built + Moyes is struggling at this level.
Even the not so incompetent ones get sacked for not excelling. See Chelsea, Liverpool, Inter, Madrid etc
Cleverley and Young have no place at United, simply not good enough.
He suggested there's no point giving incompetent managers any money to spend, I asked why they would hire an incompetent manager in the first place.
I suppose you agree with him that we should just sack and sign managers until one of them gets the same, average squad to start performing.
Squad is bang average
When United claimed the title last year we were 18 points ahead of Chelsea, neither side did particularly substantial work in the summer, and now we're 12 points behind them.
Wonder what that's all about then.
Wonder what that's all about then.
Yeah, I agree to an extent. It's certainly one of the poorest United sides in the PL era and it has some glaring weaknesses, but with the way some people talk you would think that SAF took a mid-table team and won the title with it. There are weaknesses and not winning the league with this current team is acceptable, but where we are at the moment with the football we're playing is not. People are exaggerating how poor we were last season.
Aren't you getting how stupid the question you asked was?
Why did Liverpool hire Kenny dalglish again? Why did ferguson sign bebe, obertan and djemba djemba?
No one thinks the player/manager they're selecting is incompetent when they decide to do it.
You're assumption is flawed because it assumes that the squad is average which it clearly isn't and the facts back that up. I think Moyes should be sacked if we don't make the top 4. I'd rather us fire managers for abysmal performance rather than act as if it's everyone else's fault but there's and live under some false impression that sacking a terribly performing manager is a sign of a "trigger happy" policy.
Yep. We have a lot of players who are good enough when there are better players around to help carry them, but very few players who are good enough to do the actual carrying.
You're clearly not getting the point, but full marks for trying.
Even the best United teams of the past could have walked away from the match today as losers. There is no disgrace in losing to Chelsea. It's losing against the likes of Everton, Newcastle and WBA that has killed us this season.
It's not bad but it isn't good enough.
Yeah I generally don't "get" posts as daft as that.
Don't worry, I'm sure you'll understand one day. Here's an advance 'good for you' for when you eventually do
The statement is a little extreme, but the core of it is absolutely how it works in professional football. I would personally say that a manager should not be allowed to build a squad to his desire (this is what some are demanding on here) if he can not make the players he has to perform to a certain standart. This standart for a club like United has to be CL football.
Don´t get me wrong, squad building and philosophy is an important part of being a manager, but so is man mangement, tactics and motivation. If a manager makes his squad underperform like Moyes right now, I would personally question the board of the club if they give him large amounts of money to build his personal squad. The financial risks would be too great.
Creating a new squad should not be the right of any new manager (in pretty much every club it also does not work that way), but something that he earns for himself. He can either do that by reputation or by the work he does with the current team.
Even architects, who stand for a certain brand of football like Guardiola, Klopp, Conte or Simeone were not given a free pass at the beginning, but had to earn themselves the time and funding by delivering satisfying results with their inherited teams to create the teams they wanted.
Moyes´ reputation on top level is nonexistent, so he has to prove himself and show that he is capable of coaching a top level team. So far Moyes has shown very little that indicates that. After half a season I still don´t even know what kind of football he even wants to play and the results were downright shocking. It also does not help, that he can´t really sell himself and the squad well, because he lacks charisma IMO.
If there is not a sharp improvement in the level United plays until the end of the season, it does not mean that the squad is shit and he needs large fundings and time to build a new one, it simply means that he as manager is simply not good enough for a club of United´s calibre.
People need to stop saying "this is a championship winning squad". No, it WAS one. Last year. We are a year on, things change, players decline.
Er, okay. How about making some sense next time and not assuming every decision united makes must be correct by default? Nah, that's probably too much to ask.
No, no. Everything's the same. Players don't age. Injuries don't happen.
You are a classic Moyes Apologist.
It's been 8 months. Players don't decline THAT much in such a short space of time.
Not everything. Some things are different. Like the manager.
What you say seems to promote a Director of Football approach at times, which I don't personally advocate. Fergie has said it dozens of times in the past: a manager should have full control of the club. Now I don't mean he should be handed a blank chequebook, but how can he be expected to make the team play like he wants without bringing in his own players to make that happen?
Either way this is a pointless argument, there would be an outcry if Mourinho had come in and hadn't been allowed to spend.
For me we need to sign 4-5 quality players, an attacking midfieler, a box to box player, a winger, a CB and a full back.
Offload Valencia, Fletcher, Evans, Evra, Rio and Giggs.
That said I'm not sure the manager could win anything even with the best squad on the planet.
Offload Valencia, Fletcher, Evans, Evra, Rio and Giggs.
That said I'm not sure the manager could win anything even with the best squad on the planet.
Actually, once a player hits that thresh hold, decline can be very rapid. Typically it goes something like this. Season ends, player takes break, loses a bit of conditioning/fitness/sharpness. Season rolls around and guess what. It's gone. It isn't coming back. You will never be the same player. That's why Giggs has been able to do what he has done for so long. He never completely shuts off. He always ate clean and kept that motor revving because he understood that if he shut it down for 3 or 4 months that was all she wrote.
Or we could pump Rio and Evra and Giggs full of HGH and TRT. Then they'd be like 25 year olds again!
All I'm hearing in the media and on forums is "the squad isn't good enough, Moyes needs to be able to sign his own players....yadda yadda." That is a cop out, this squad is perfectly capable of mounting a title challenge. What is the guarantee the players he signs suddenly make everything peachy? If United finish outside the Champions League places he will find it very hard to attract the standard of player he truly wants.
Desperate times. He needs to motivate this squad and get them organised and hard to beat....for gods sake that is the bare minimum.
Desperate times. He needs to motivate this squad and get them organised and hard to beat....for gods sake that is the bare minimum.
It's not a bad squad or a mid table squad by any stretch of the imagination, but it's no longer a great side. Yes if Rooney, RVP, Carrick, and Rafael had been healthy all year we would have been able to give City and Chelsea a run for their money, but we would have still finished no better than third. What's compounded the injuries is that Vidic, Rio and Evra have all gotten old and or tired at the same time. Jones, Smalling and Evans have been either played out of position and injured so much that none of the three have had a long run together as CB's, leaving us not really knowing if any of them will be as good as Rio and Vidic in their prime. Plus when you factor in that we lost out on our midfield transfer targets, largely down to being out bid or refusing to pay the agent fees, it's no wonder that we have struggled this year.
You don´t need to handpick completely new players on the transfer market to at least show signs of the style you want to play.
I give you an example:
When Klopp took over Dortmund in 2008, we were 14th in the league with the worst defense. His style of football centers around three core themes: pressing, movement and directness. The squad he inherited was downright mediocre, so it was not capable of playing the kind of football it does today.
They were clear instant changes in the way we played, though. We began to press, stood more stable and the play against and without the ball improved. He did all that without bringing a single player into the team. He simply made changes in the training and the tactics.
Now, I don´t want to take Klopp as a measure stick, because he made us overperform for years and the extend of improvement is rather the exception of the rule, but an underperforming of the level of what United does right now would have ment the clear danger of relegation for Dortmund back then. He would not have lasted until the end of the season and rightfully so.
Mourinho would be a complete different case, because he is a proven title winner. He would have had the reputation to demand large spendings.
Well, despite the fact that Moyes made Everton overperform for years, there's no point comparing us and Dortmund, the situations aren't remotely similar.
Your last point on Mourinho just says it all.
It's a rather pointless argument indeed because Moyes came in and he was allowed to spend. He spent 27.5m on one a player he's worked with for five years, to improve a title-winning squad. At this point he should definitely be judged on what he can get out of the current set of players, regardless of which philosophy we apply.
And no manager is given full control of the club. Ever. He may get full control of what he does with the funds available. It's the owners who determine the amount of money he gets to spend.