Thiago Alc*ntara | Retires

I believe he will com on.

But those fullbacks for Liverpool just so good, so influential.

But don't rule out Arteta getting a draw or something.

Emery would be 4:1 down at this point.
 
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Cheech Wizard said:
Reports that he could be out until after international break.. don't know how true this is though. Looks like it's already started his injury woes. Did we get a receipt?
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Maybe he's got Covid and we're just keeping it hush hush.
 
strongwalker said:
I know a lot of Bayern Friends who said similar nonsense about Kroos, or Ballack. It seems hard for some to judge midfielder performance.
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No one who actually watched Ballack will say that nonsense.
Ballack was a leader at Bayern. He created he scored. At a time he was the best outfield player.
I remember so many games we couldn't beat the opponent and it was a Sagnol to Ballack ball that did it

None of Kroos nor Thiago ever got to the heights Ballack did in a Bayern team
 
Tests positive for Covid 19
Has Covid.

 
That might well disrupt them, will miss a fair number of games, can't train with team etc.

Hope he recovers okay and that us and others take advantage of this.
 
Statue of Limitations said:
That might well disrupt them, will miss a fair number of games, can't train with team etc.

Hope he recovers okay and that us and others take advantage of this.
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He'll miss Thursday and Villa on Sunday, but then it's an international break so they think he'll be good for the game after that. I think that might be Everton.
 
kaiser1 said:
No one who actually watched Ballack will say that nonsense.
Ballack was a leader at Bayern. He created he scored. At a time he was the best outfield player.
I remember so many games we couldn't beat the opponent and it was a Sagnol to Ballack ball that did it

None of Kroos nor Thiago ever got to the heights Ballack did in a Bayern team
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Ballack was just on a different level mentally. When the going gets tough, Kroos and Thiago often tend to disappear. Ballack rarely did. He also single-handedly pulled the German national team through some pretty dark times. Warrior.
 
Problem is Ballack was not half the technically gifted player Kroos and Thiago are. Ballack needed all these heroics and leadership qualities just to be as effective as the other two on an average day. Today he wouldn't even be playable in central midfield. He would probably be a central defender.
 
Shame he's missed out on a few weeks of integration but one of the best things about the transfer is it's kind of a luxury. It will raise our ceiling but, as shown last night, we're more than capable of bossing teams without him.

Better having it now than months down the line in a more crucial period (assuming re-infection is low).
 
Bazi said:
Problem is Ballack was not half the technically gifted player Kroos and Thiago are. Ballack needed all these heroics and leadership qualities just to be as effective as the other two on an average day. Today he wouldn't even be playable in central midfield. He would probably be a central defender.
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A young Ballack could play Goretzka's or Muller's role in Bayerns midfield without much trouble. He was more important to club and country than Thiago will ever be, even though it's a case of apples and oranges.
 
Libano said:
A young Ballack could play Goretzka's or Muller's role in Bayerns midfield without much trouble. He was more important to club and country than Thiago will ever be, even though it's a case of apples and oranges.
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Yet Thiago is the vastly superior player. It's not even close.

Ballack was more important than Thiago because Bayern's mid 2000s team was absolutely atrocious and Germany was even worse. He also couldn't play Müller's role at all. He would be completely lost against the pressing in today's game. At best he could be used as an aerial threat for lesser teams but that's no longer a winning formula on the big stage.

Ballack was just an incredibly overrated player that profited from the weak era that he played in in Germany.
 
Bazi said:
Yet Thiago is the vastly superior player. It's not even close.

Ballack was more important than Thiago because Bayern's mid 2000s team was absolutely atrocious and Germany was even worse. He also couldn't play Müller's role at all. He would be completely lost against the pressing in today's game. At best he could be used as an aerial threat for lesser teams but that's no longer a winning formula on the big stage.

Ballack was just an incredibly overrated player that profited from the weak era that he played in in Germany.
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You are of course entitled to your opinion. I just disagree.

His stats speak a very different language. He carried Germany to the World Cup finals. He was at or near the top of any team he played in until well into his 30’s. He scored an insane amount of goals for a midfielder. Comfortable with both feet. Great passing. Great tackling. He had it all. Nothing suggests he could not have adapted to today’s pressing game while at the peak of his powers. Countless lesser players have.

Thiago is great, no doubt, but a sensitive specialist who for good reason was benched a lot at Munich and who would go missing ‘on a cold, rainy Tuesday night at Stoke’. Ballack would score the 0:1 in extra time. A true captain for club and country.
 
Bazi said:
Problem is Ballack was not half the technically gifted player Kroos and Thiago are. Ballack needed all these heroics and leadership qualities just to be as effective as the other two on an average day. Today he wouldn't even be playable in central midfield. He would probably be a central defender.
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That’s a nonsensical statement
 
Would this COVID-19 infection cause a long-term respiratory problem, like asthma?
 
Bazi said:
Problem is Ballack was not half the technically gifted player Kroos and Thiago are. Ballack needed all these heroics and leadership qualities just to be as effective as the other two on an average day. Today he wouldn't even be playable in central midfield. He would probably be a central defender.
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The way you speak about Ballack is as if he was the German Henderson.

And if Henderson is good enough to play in midfield for arguably the best team in Europe, you can bet that Ballack would also be.

Also, who do you rate higher between Ballack and Schweinsteiger?
 
Isotope said:
Would this COVID-19 infection cause a long-term respiratory problem, like asthma?
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I see what you did there (I think). Aren't 60%of Liverpool's squad already asthmatic? This would pose a danger to their health. They should all be wrapped in cottonwool.
 
It's funny. Thiago has been great of late but people give off the impression that he's been some elite CM for the last decade (or even half that) whereas he has in the past despite his ability and moments, been a little inconsistent, had fitness issues and been sold by Barcelona.
 
Bazi said:
Problem is Ballack was not half the technically gifted player Kroos and Thiago are. Ballack needed all these heroics and leadership qualities just to be as effective as the other two on an average day. Today he wouldn't even be playable in central midfield. He would probably be a central defender.
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You're joking? :eek:
 
Marcus said:
I see what you did there (I think). Aren't 60%of Liverpool's squad already asthmatic? This would pose a danger to their health. They should all be wrapped in cottonwool.
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Yeh. It was more of a snide remark, where Thiago now has an excuse to say that he has developed asthma.
 
I grew up watching Ballack play. He's great, no doubt, but I think his legacy is immensely amplified by the fact that he was far and away the best German player. Happened to play in the worst period of German football in the last 30 years at least.

For me it's

Kroos > Thiago > Schweinsteiger > Ballack

Thiago is the most talented, IMO.
 
Zehner said:
I grew up watching Ballack play. He's great, no doubt, but I think his legacy is immensely amplified by the fact that he was far and away the best German player. Happened to play in the worst period of German football in the last 30 years at least.

For me it's

Kroos > Thiago > Schweinsteiger > Ballack

Thiago is the most talented, IMO.
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I'd go Kroos > Schweinsteiger > Thiago > Ballack
 
One has to take into account that Ballack did not have the benefit of the excellent youth schooling of the DFB that only really got into gear after the horrendous showing of Germany during Euro 2000. And despite that, he reached such a high level - with compatriots like Frings, Jeremies, Wörns or Ramelow. With proper education he would have made it further. Thiago went through La Masia in Barcelona. The best of the best.

Times were different. It is more fair to ask who was more influential in their day? Ballack wins that by a country mile.

Also, recency bias is a thing.

Schweinsteiger = Ballack > Kroos > Thiago
 
amolbhatia50k said:
It's funny. Thiago has been great of late but people give off the impression that he's been some elite CM for the last decade (or even half that) whereas he has in the past despite his ability and moments, been a little inconsistent, had fitness issues and been sold by Barcelona.
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He's had a relatively short peak but at that peak he has been exceptional. Not Xavi levels of exceptional obviously but enough to put him among the best midfielders of the last decade if he can maintain that level for a few years at Liverpool, which would likely result in them winning some big titles.
 
Brilliant player Ballack is, very technical player for someone so tall. Didn't Fergie try to get him at one point of time? Probably his Leverkusen days when he left on a free
 
Zehner said:
I grew up watching Ballack play. He's great, no doubt, but I think his legacy is immensely amplified by the fact that he was far and away the best German player. Happened to play in the worst period of German football in the last 30 years at least.

For me it's

Kroos > Thiago > Schweinsteiger > Ballack

Thiago is the most talented, IMO.
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Don't agree on Kroos being better than Ballack and Schweinsteiger (Thiago being better is an absolute joke). Ballack and Schweinsteiger are equal, very hard to separate both, but both have been better than Kroos because of their leadership capabilties. Ballack is rightly amplified for the exact reason, people say Germany was crap in the 00's but we still managed to reach two major finals and one semi-final. Why? Ballack! So many great moments, the whole of the 2002 WC, his performance v Argentina in 2006 where he played on one leg all of extra time, and then went forward to score a penalty, the goal against Austria to take them into the quarterfinal at Euro 08 (followed by another goal v Portugal).

I'm not even going to bring Thiago into this conversation because he has no right to be in the same breath as the other three. Thiago has certainly been great lately, but Kroos and Schweinsteiger have been at that level for years now and have won trophies at the national, European and World stage. Ballack, while not having the same success, was at a higher level for most of his career as well.

About talent. I'd say Kroos is the most talented out of all named above, he could play at a world class level both as an attacking midfielder (under Heynckes at Bayern) and as a deep midfielder, where he currently plays. He has the ability to dictate play from deep and score 10+ goals a season consistently (something Thiago has never shown in his career). I've always said that Kroos has never fulfilled that talent because he was shoehorned into a deep midfield role, when he could've been one of the most complete midfielder's in the world with his ability to come deep and then move forward to score goals (like he played under Heynckes).

strongwalker said:
In my filter bubble around my regular seat in the Allianz, all occupied by decade-long season ticket holders, the verdict on him was about 50-50. For Kroos it was about 40-60 ("Rückpasskönig"), even for Schweini, it was maybe 70-30
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Yea I remember in 2006, when it was decided that he was leaving for free, I think Hoeness (or Karl Heinz) came out and said he wasn't good enough in the big European games (he then followed up and scored a worldy against AC Milan :D). There was a lot of animosity from Bayern fans that time when he left for free. That is understandable, to see your best player leave the club and you get nothing for it.
 
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We are talking about the same Ballack who made two all-star World Cup teams in a row (playing for a not a very great Germany side)?
 
Unbelievable Ballack underrating going on here.

The guy was phenomenal, great defending/tackling, great header, great technique, physical presence and one of the best long shots in the history of the game. Also a great leader.

I think in Germany for a long time he was considered the greatest German midfielder since Matthaus, meaning he was rated above the likes of Effenberg, Scheinsteiger, Kroos, though by now perhaps they caught up.

I can't believe some would think he has no place in the current Bayern/Germany team, he would replace Goretzka (as great as he is) in the blink of an eye.

I guess that's Ballack's biggest mistake is his legacy though. By leaving Bayern the way he did he caused himself to not be a proper club legend anywhere, meaning that he has very few fans talking him up and keeping his legacy alive.
 
Brwned said:
He's had a relatively short peak but at that peak he has been exceptional. Not Xavi levels of exceptional obviously but enough to put him among the best midfielders of the last decade if he can maintain that level for a few years at Liverpool, which would likely result in them winning some big titles.
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No doubt but it's important to remember how short the peak is so far and that playing in the Bundesliga for Bayern comes with a lack challenge. People give such little credit to Pep for winning there and that should applies/not apply to players as well. Not that I think both him and players don't deserve credit but it should be considered.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
No doubt but it's important to remember how short the peak is so far and that playing in the Bundesliga for Bayern comes with a lack challenge. People give such little credit to Pep for winning there and that should applies/not apply to players as well. Not that I think both him and players don't deserve credit but it should be considered.
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True but that tends to get overwritten a little bit by a CL win. Guardiola couldn't win in Europe so his dominance of the league is questioned, in the way e.g. Sir Alex's was by Europeans in the 90s. Thiago did make a mark on a competition universally respected.
 
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