Thiago Alc*ntara | Retires

Pep's Suit said:
And now back to reality, please. Before it was held by Gundogan - 165 so that would be more like 150+15 but of course I know that United fans love all these myths and legends and fake quotes about Paul Scholes.
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Dude - rather than being so aggressive about this, you could have read on a little, and you would have noticed that there had been a polite discussion about this, and that @Yagami looked up the actual stat and corrected himself:
Yagami said:
@GhastlyHun & @B20

I just looked up that game on whoscored and surprise, surprise I was wrong! He made 148 passes but played the whole game! That was nearly 8 years ago to be fair to me... :nervous:
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united_99 said:
:lol: The hyperbole for a performance against a 10-men Chelsea who are still trying to find some form.
Imagine how this thread will look like once he actually plays a full game for Liverpool against 11 men!
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This is what I'll never understand about all the praise for that performance, Chelsea had no man to press him so his job was essentially just pass with zero pressure. We know he's a good player but it was nothing special and nothing bad, just what you'd expect from any player in that role against ten men. Keep the ball moving, tire out a team who are a man down sitting deep and be alert to counters.
 
Zehner said:
I really rate Kimmich, by the way, but he's not as pressing resistant as Thiago is - and while his passing is obviously great, it's not necessarily more vertical than Thiago's. There's a reason Flick played Thiago in the CL final - he's just incredibly good at absorbing pressure and was the best player on the pitch that night. Bayern will definitely miss him. His departure also went very badly with their own fans. Some even compared that to the sale of Kroos to Real Madrid.
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I don't understand the part in bold. Who else would have played in the CL final?
I have followed Thiagos game since he came to Bayern and he really improved in his last 2 seasons especially on his defensive game unlike in the past where he would escort Saul Niguez over 20yards watching him score, The recent Thiago would foul Saul. His first 5 seasons he was very inconsistent and his defensive work was average
This was my post in 2018 on the old Thiago thread and my opinion of his before the last 2 seasons. Many Bayern fans share this opinion as well

kaiser1 said:
Talent to some people is completing 98% non risky passes to Kimmich Boateng and Hummels or showboating on social media. Talent to me is application on the field.
Despite Vidals age and misconducts(getting drunk, bar fights) many fans are ready to stick for him because he gives it all on the field.
James at the beginning many Bayern fans not enthusiastic about his purchase but he has won us over because he played hard, driving lay forward and earned it,
There are still errors in James midfield game which cause turnovers like vs Frankfurt but we can see the effort and forward play while trying to make thing happen, not just playing sideways safe passes to complete some 60 passes in our half on whoscored.
Bayern biggest problem is our slow transition where we have been emphasizing sterile midfield passes and possession over actually taking shots. We dominate possesion and looks like we lose focus of what to do with the ball. I won't mind surrendering some of those possession for more risky forward and penetrative plays
In Thagos 5 seasons his best game has been vs Arsenal last year in Munich. Other top games he has disappeared.

Still I wont want him sold yet, Renato and Vidal(sadly) can leave before Thiago. Maybe Kovac can make him a deep lying playmaker like Pirlo and have Tolliso/Goretzka and James do the running in front of him
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The bold part here was one of the major things Flick addressed. We move the ball forward quicker and spend less time in our half playing low risk passes around
 
Rooney in Paris said:
There is nothing really special there? Looks like a decent, if run of the mill type of performance.

Really surprised by some of the plaudits he's receiving now. And it's got nothing to do with "undervaluing midfield performances".
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If it's just a decent performance, why aren't we seeing more midfielders averaging 90+% passing accuracy and 100+ passes per game? Ironically, you don't need to do something special to have a special performance in midfield, IMO. He kept it simple, distributed the ball well and on top of that played a few opening passes between the lines and many switches of play (10 long balls according to WhoScored). That's exactly what I want to see from a midfielder. I don't need them to assist or score themselves. As I said, for me it's more about getting the easy things right 99 out of 100 times and he did that very well. It's also about the quantity by the way. If you play 45 minutes and have 75 contacts, 90% passing accuracy and 10 long balls, you've had a very dominant game in terms of time on the ball. You need to position yourself very well to do that, always be available for a pass etc.
 
kaiser1 said:
I don't understand the part in bold. Who else would have played in the CL final?
I have followed Thiagos game since he came to Bayern and he really improved in his last 2 seasons especially on his defensive game unlike in the past where he would escort Saul Niguez over 20yards watching him score, The recent Thiago would foul Saul. His first 5 seasons he was very inconsistent and his defensive work was average
This was my post in 2018 on the old Thiago thread and my opinion of his before the last 2 seasons. Many Bayern fans share this opinion as well



The bold part here was one of the major things Flick addressed. We move the ball forward quicker and spend less time in our half playing low risk passes around
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In the weeks before the final (I believe when the rumors of Thiago going to Liverpool really came alive), some argued that Goretzka - Kimmich was Bayern's best midfield pairing anyway.

Actually, I think Thiago's qualities shine the most when you face teams on eye level. Especially against PSG, Thiago's pressing resistance which is second to none IMO was key. Against weaker teams that don't press as high up the pitch, a player like Goretzka with his vertical movements and goal threat can be very useful but against other elite clubs, I think Thiago is much more valuable.
 
Snow said:
Don't think it is. Van Dijk has missed one game for Liverpool and that was a yellow card suspension in the CL 2 seasons ago. Worst case scenario both Matip and Gomez are injured and they play Fabinho. Still stronger than most if not all CB pairings in the league.
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I'd still want another young CB or experienced CB to be available if I were a supporter that wants to push on on all fronts and go for a treble.
 
ti vu said:
Pep was the head coach. They both ended up at Bayern in the same summer. It might have something to do with Pep making use of inside info re: Thiago wishes to leave, and the release clause detail.
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Except Pep took a year sabbatical in New York between Barca and Bayern.

Thiago had a low release clause if he didn't play a certain amount of games.

This was on Villanova not Pep.
 
Thought he had a decent debut, apart from the penalty incident of course. He looked tidy and if thats after being here for just over a day then I think he can be special for us... literally speaks every language under the sun too so he’ll fit in instantly also.
 
Zehner said:
In the weeks before the final (I believe when the rumors of Thiago going to Liverpool really came alive), some argued that Goretzka - Kimmich was Bayern's best midfield pairing anyway.

Actually, I think Thiago's qualities shine the most when you face teams on eye level. Especially against PSG, Thiago's pressing resistance which is second to none IMO was key. Against weaker teams that don't press as high up the pitch, a player like Goretzka with his vertical movements and goal threat can be very useful but against other elite clubs, I think Thiago is much more valuable.
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Kimmich had to cover RB since Pavard was injured. Basically Thiago Goretzka midfield was the only option available for the entire CL knockout otherwise we would have gone with Tolliso Cuisance or Javi. Or Odriozola at RB
Bayern is most dangerous when we are able to isolate our quick wingers with the opponent's defence with through balls or balls over the top and also aggressive high press to shrink the field and force errors.
Kimmich is improving on his long balls, he can get physical but lacks Thiagos natural ball-handling abilities
Thiago really improved with this in the past 2 seasons. I think moving him deeper helped him more as he had more space to pick up passes and dictate play while not having defenders breathing down his neck further up the pitch
He has grown to be very aggressive and puts in a tackle when needed without losing his silky touches.
 
Piratesoup said:
He was by far our midfielder with the most possessions won over the last seasons, his defense is absolutely outstanding. He even topped a couple of defensive stats for midfielders league wide in the last couple of seasons. Saying he was "all fancy passes" and bad on defense means you either didn't watch him play or wilfully ignored everything he did on a daily basis. Shameful post.




Kimmich being the imo best midfielder in the world right now is the only reason I'm not in tears after this transfer.
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Get a fecking grip, you sound like a fanboy.

For what is worth my Bayern friend thinks Thiago is all fancy flicks and great against poor opposition, but always ended up costing Bayern dearly in CL knockout games with stupid mistakes. So your opinion as a Bayern fan is by no means the truth (or the only truth). And if you think I'm biased due to him joining LFC, check my posting activity as far back as you want.
 
Zehner said:
If it's just a decent performance, why aren't we seeing more midfielders averaging 90+% passing accuracy and 100+ passes per game? Ironically, you don't need to do something special to have a special performance in midfield, IMO. He kept it simple, distributed the ball well and on top of that played a few opening passes between the lines and many switches of play (10 long balls according to WhoScored). That's exactly what I want to see from a midfielder. I don't need them to assist or score themselves. As I said, for me it's more about getting the easy things right 99 out of 100 times and he did that very well. It's also about the quantity by the way. If you play 45 minutes and have 75 contacts, 90% passing accuracy and 10 long balls, you've had a very dominant game in terms of time on the ball. You need to position yourself very well to do that, always be available for a pass etc.
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Seriously, given the context of the game - Chelsea were playing with 10 players and after the quick one-two they had zero bite, he did nothing outstanding. Chelsea's plan seem to be to exploit an inidividual error from Liverpool (tsk, tsk Thiago conceding a penalty) or some sort of last minute dead ball situation to score a goal. They didn't try to play, or impose their game on the midfield. Waxing lyrical about passes or pass accuracy in such a context seems fcuking weird. Are you desperate to play up any Bundesliga imports as some sort of unmitigated success?

Thiago is a good player mind.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
This is what I'll never understand about all the praise for that performance, Chelsea had no man to press him so his job was essentially just pass with zero pressure. We know he's a good player but it was nothing special and nothing bad, just what you'd expect from any player in that role against ten men. Keep the ball moving, tire out a team who are a man down sitting deep and be alert to counters.
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Except he is just about the best player in the world when it comes to do something meaningful with the ball under pressure.
 
Suedesi said:
Get a fecking grip, you sound like a fanboy.

For what is worth my Bayern friend thinks Thiago is all fancy flicks and great against poor opposition, but always ended up costing Bayern dearly in CL knockout games with stupid mistakes. So your opinion as a Bayern fan is by no means the truth (or the only truth). And if you think I'm biased due to him joining LFC, check my posting activity as far back as you want.
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So you guys are clueless by association? No wonder he left.
 
strongwalker said:
Except he is just about the best player in the world when it comes to do something meaningful with the ball under pressure.
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How often will that happen at Liverpool though? They spend the entire game pressuring the other side.

He seems like an unnecessary signing to me on the surface, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
Jericho said:
How often will that happen at Liverpool though? They spend the entire game pressuring the other side.

He seems like an unnecessary signing to me on the surface, but maybe I'm wrong.
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It's normally not a big deal however against the big teams in the CL that's where his contribution will be most felt and against most of the big sides in the league.
 
Suedesi said:
For what is worth my Bayern friend thinks Thiago is all fancy flicks and great against poor opposition, but always ended up costing Bayern dearly in CL knockout games with stupid mistakes.
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This isn't untrue, but it describes the past rather than the present. Thiago's development into a world class player was a long and rocky one, accompanied by many injuries and on-pitch disappointments. But since around 2018 he has put his phlegm aside and unlocked his full potential. There is a certain irony to the story in that we kind of developed a player for Klopp, who's now set to get more Thiago prime years than we did. His reactions certainly did reflect it:D
 
2ndTouch said:
This isn't untrue, but it describes the past rather than the present. Thiago's development into a world class player was a long and rocky one, accompanied by many injuries and on-pitch disappointments. But since around 2018 he has put his phlegma aside and unlocked his full potential. There is a certain irony to the story in that we kind of developed a player for Klopp, who's now set to get more Thiago prime years than we did. His reactions certainly did reflect it:D
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Wtf? Is that a combination of phlegm and smegma? :nervous:
 
Midfielders typcially peak in their late 20s. Xavi only became as dominant as he is around Thiago's current age as well.
 
Suedesi said:
Get a fecking grip, you sound like a fanboy.

For what is worth my Bayern friend thinks Thiago is all fancy flicks and great against poor opposition, but always ended up costing Bayern dearly in CL knockout games with stupid mistakes. So your opinion as a Bayern fan is by no means the truth (or the only truth). And if you think I'm biased due to him joining LFC, check my posting activity as far back as you want.
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The hint's in the name, mate. Football FAN. We're all fanbois. You won't see much more passionate fans of anything on the planet than in football.

As for as Thiago's qualities... your friend apparently didn't pay attention the last two seasons or is unable to change his opinion on a player, once formed. His flicks still exist, but he does them with a purpose now and has protected the ball quite well with his abilities. Having said that, I wonder what your friend thinks about Lewa's Rabona last weekend? That was probably more fanciful than anything I've seen from Thiago during his time at Bayern.
 
Suedesi said:
Seriously, given the context of the game - Chelsea were playing with 10 players and after the quick one-two they had zero bite, he did nothing outstanding. Chelsea's plan seem to be to exploit an inidividual error from Liverpool (tsk, tsk Thiago conceding a penalty) or some sort of last minute dead ball situation to score a goal. They didn't try to play, or impose their game on the midfield. Waxing lyrical about passes or pass accuracy in such a context seems fcuking weird. Are you desperate to play up any Bundesliga imports as some sort of unmitigated success?

Thiago is a good player mind.
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I understand that it may come across like that but it really isn't the case. I just like debating players I like/dislike and know one or two things about. Obviously that is the case primarily with Bundesliga players but you can find similar posts of me about players like Neymar, Messi, Hazard, Modric, Puig etc. This season, there are simply a lot of (former) Bundesliga players in the focus due to signings or transfer rumors.

In this case, it's less Thiago for me but more about playing styles in general. I'm a huge fan of midfielders like Thiago, Kroos, Modric, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets etc. and think that they're the best choices in almost any system. However, midfielders in the EPL are traditionally fundamentally different to those types, more vertical, direct and strong, and I'm under the impression that this affects the perception and assessment of midfielders among British fans. They've learned to rate the "Barca style" footballers on a rational basis but intuitively gravitate much more towards those box to box midfielders who do spectacular things like long passes, long shots, slide tackles, ball carrying etc. - and it's only natural because they've grown up with them. And that is also reflected in this discussion. Many posters claim that Thiago's debut was a run of the mill performance because he didn't do anything special - and that's what I mean with the "affinity towards the spectacular". I prefer a midfielder to be subtle. Everything else comes on top of that and obviously improves the performance further but the most important thing is that you do the easy things right 99 out of 100 times in that position. And that's much more than you think initially. Positioning, consistency in your technique and passing, concentration and the right decision making. That's also the reason why I keep criticizing Pogba so much - I've got nothing against the player as a character but to me he's the personification of "spectacle over subletly" and many fans in here are usually happy to overlook flaws in his performances because he does the spectacular things. Again, I don't want to turn this into a Pogba discussion, you could also replace him with a player like Gerrard or Lampard. I don't think they'd work in the modern game as well as they did.
 
2ndTouch said:
This isn't untrue, but it describes the past rather than the present. Thiago's development into a world class player was a long and rocky one, accompanied by many injuries and on-pitch disappointments. But since around 2018 he has put his phlegm aside and unlocked his full potential. There is a certain irony to the story in that we kind of developed a player for Klopp, who's now set to get more Thiago prime years than we did. His reactions certainly did reflect it:D
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Does it really describe the past though? I recall a stupid flick against Lyon last month, and 5 seconds later Memphis Depay was one-on-one with Neuer. A more cynical striker would that put that away and it's a long night for you. I don't claim to watch Bayern as much as you do, but in most CL games I've seen he's bound to do something odd.
 
Liverpool haven't had a midfielder of Thiagos technical and passing class since Alonso, with some absolute dross in between.

When it's been so long, it doesn't take much to get on a horn.
 
Zehner said:
I understand that it may come across like that but it really isn't the case. I just like debating players I like/dislike and know one or two things about. Obviously that is the case primarily with Bundesliga players but you can find similar posts of me about players like Neymar, Messi, Hazard, Modric, Puig etc. This season, there are simply a lot of (former) Bundesliga players in the focus due to signings or transfer rumors.

In this case, it's less Thiago for me but more about playing styles in general. I'm a huge fan of midfielders like Thiago, Kroos, Modric, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets etc. and think that they're the best choices in almost any system. However, midfielders in the EPL are traditionally fundamentally different to those types, more vertical, direct and strong, and I'm under the impression that this affects the perception and assessment of midfielders among British fans. They've learned to rate the "Barca style" footballers on a rational basis but intuitively gravitate much more towards those box to box midfielders who do spectacular things like long passes, long shots, slide tackles, ball carrying etc. - and it's only natural because they've grown up with them. And that is also reflected in this discussion. Many posters claim that Thiago's debut was a run of the mill performance because he didn't do anything special - and that's what I mean with the "affinity towards the spectacular". I prefer a midfielder to be subtle. Everything else comes on top of that and obviously improves the performance further but the most important thing is that you do the easy things right 99 out of 100 times in that position. And that's much more than you think initially. Positioning, consistency in your technique and passing, concentration and the right decision making. That's also the reason why I keep criticizing Pogba so much - I've got nothing against the player as a character but to me he's the personification of "spectacle over subletly" and many fans in here are usually happy to overlook flaws in his performances because he does the spectacular things. Again, I don't want to turn this into a Pogba discussion, you could also replace him with a player like Gerrard or Lampard. I don't think they'd work in the modern game as well as they did.
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I grew up on Serie A watching Platini and Maradona threading balls to Boniek and Careca so I'm biased toward technique and the right decision making over slide tackles and box to box playing. I get your point overall.
 
Lagger said:
The hint's in the name, mate. Football FAN. We're all fanbois. You won't see much more passionate fans of anything on the planet than in football.

As for as Thiago's qualities... your friend apparently didn't pay attention the last two seasons or is unable to change his opinion on a player, once formed. His flicks still exist, but he does them with a purpose now and has protected the ball quite well with his abilities. Having said that, I wonder what your friend thinks about Lewa's Rabona last weekend? That was probably more fanciful than anything I've seen from Thiago during his time at Bayern.
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At 5-0 he's allowed to go full Neymar and do a seal dribble if he fancies.
 
2ndTouch said:
This isn't untrue, but it describes the past rather than the present. Thiago's development into a world class player was a long and rocky one, accompanied by many injuries and on-pitch disappointments. But since around 2018 he has put his phlegm aside and unlocked his full potential. There is a certain irony to the story in that we kind of developed a player for Klopp, who's now set to get more Thiago prime years than we did. His reactions certainly did reflect it:D
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This is how I will describe Thiagos time at Bayern as well. I think moving him deeper did wonders to his game. iirc, Juup was the first one to try him as the DM in a CL game vs Madrid

Suedesi said:
Does it really describe the past though? I recall a stupid flick against Lyon last month, and 5 seconds later Memphis Depay was one-on-one with Neuer. A more cynical striker would that put that away and it's a long night for you. I don't claim to watch Bayern as much as you do, but in most CL games I've seen he's bound to do something odd.
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He is not perfect, no player is but he has improved significantly from what he used to be,
 
kaiser1 said:
This is how I will describe Thiagos time at Bayern as well. I think moving him deeper did wonders to his game. iirc, Juup was the first one to try him as the DM in a CL game vs Madrid



He is not perfect, no player is but he has improved significantly from what he used to be,
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Didn't Pep start him in the deepest position/as the regista initially? I remember being surprised that he didn't use Thiago as an 8 after Bayern signed him.
 
Piratesoup said:
Kimmich being the imo best midfielder in the world right now is the only reason I'm not in tears after this transfer.
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Something like this...

And even if a midfield duo with Thiago and Kimmich is great - I somehow have a feeling that is better when you pair players like Thiago or Kimmich or Alonso in the past with another type of player like Goretzka, Vidal, maybe Tolisso.

Zehner said:
Didn't Pep start him in the deepest position/as the regista initially? I remember being surprised that he didn't use Thiago as an 8 after Bayern signed him.
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No, Pep used him variably. Lahm was the no. 6 in Pep's first season. Than Alonso came. Pep usually played a 4141. Thiago usually played an 8.

For me that and playing as a double 6 are the ideal positions for Thiago. And he always was better - even contributed more offensively - as an 8 behind 4 more offensive players than as 10.
 
Suedesi said:
For what is worth my Bayern friend thinks Thiago is all fancy flicks and great against poor opposition, but always ended up costing Bayern dearly in CL knockout games with stupid mistakes. So your opinion as a Bayern fan is by no means the truth (or the only truth). And if you think I'm biased due to him joining LFC, check my posting activity as far back as you want.
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I know a lot of Bayern Friends who said similar nonsense about Kroos, or Ballack. It seems hard for some to judge midfielder performance.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
This is what I'll never understand about all the praise for that performance, Chelsea had no man to press him so his job was essentially just pass with zero pressure. We know he's a good player but it was nothing special and nothing bad, just what you'd expect from any player in that role against ten men. Keep the ball moving, tire out a team who are a man down sitting deep and be alert to counters.
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Oh come on he is a world class player. A player comfortable with the ball, changes direction, vision, and will split you apart if you aren't switched on. The fact that klopp has him is bad news for us.

Mane and Salah are goal scoring machines as it is. We'll see what Arsenal do to try and stop him. Because you know he's going to be even better under Klopp.
 
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Fussball13251 said:
Oh come on he is a world class player. A player comfortable with the ball, changes direction, vision, and will split you apart if you aren't switched on. The fact that klopp has him is bad news for us.

Mane and Salah are goal scoring machines as it is. We'll see what Arsenal do to try and stop him. Because you know he's going to be even better under Klopp.
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When did anyone suggest he wasn't? It was more that he was getting a huge amount of praise and people waxing lyrical about him for his debut when they were playing against ten men & he gave away a penalty. He's a great player but I just didn't get why people felt the need to go so overboard in that particular match.
 
Not even in the squad tonight? Read something about fitness issues, but if our own (Bayern) squad is anything to judge by, I rather suspect he's worn out from last season. Kind of a fitness issue indeed, although not what the term usually means.
 
GhastlyHun said:
Not even in the squad tonight? Read something about fitness issues, but if our own (Bayern) squad is anything to judge by, I rather suspect he's worn out from last season. Kind of a fitness issue indeed, although not what the term usually means.
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Reports that he could be out until after international break.. don't know how true this is though. Looks like it's already started his injury woes. Did we get a receipt?
 
Crock. At least the scouse will always have that legendary performance when he came on against 10 men and passed it round the back for 45 minutes before giving away a pen. They should get a few poems out of that.
 
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