That's my point. The CL win is one cup run with just 7 knockout games. One deserves praise for playing well in it. But that one season/run redefining the perspective on everything before it is pretty simplistic. I'm not saying Thiago was rubbish before it or wasn't a good footballer during the rest of his career. Just that it's important to judge his career based on actual peformances and not just hype.
Thiago Alc*ntara | Retires
- Thread starter horsechoker
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He was the best midfielder in the world for two seasons, reasonably spread out, so I think it's a fair assessment that he's an elite midfielder who just took his time to get there. It's not unusual for centre miss given the maturity needed in that play. Someone like Scholes might have had a much longer peak but he didn't reach the same peak.
People comparing Ballack to Thiago now?! Jesus wept, Thiagos not fit to lace Ballacks boots...
Ok so maybe that's extreme, but the love Thiago gets in here is insane, Ballack won games single handedly for multiple teams, a real warrior on the pitch with craft, guile, technique and skill along with brute strength at times.
Thiago works well in possession based system, yet has hardly ever shown up for his national side, and often doesn't influence games in the same way Ballack used to.
But it's the love affair this place has with Thiago unfortunately that has blinded people.
Ok so maybe that's extreme, but the love Thiago gets in here is insane, Ballack won games single handedly for multiple teams, a real warrior on the pitch with craft, guile, technique and skill along with brute strength at times.
Thiago works well in possession based system, yet has hardly ever shown up for his national side, and often doesn't influence games in the same way Ballack used to.
But it's the love affair this place has with Thiago unfortunately that has blinded people.
As things stand-Thiago. Pogba has barely kicked a good ball since he returned. It's a long time ago since he was on fire at Juve-long ago!
He was better than KDB in 18/19? They got walloped by Livepool in the CL and I think were mediocre in the Bundesliga sneaking to the title from what I recall?
Or are you referring to another year when he hit this level? I disagree with comparisons to Scholes but that's another debate.
Wow, talk about hyperbole. That idea literally never crossed my mind. You really think that?
Just to clarify, when I said "reasonably spaced out" I meant to imply that it wasn't in back-to-back seasons. WhoScored had him as the best player in the Bundesliga, by a margin, in 16/17. I personally thought he was the best midfielder in the world then, albeit not at the level Modric reached the following season nor at the level his compatriots reached earlier in the decade. It wasn't an uncommon opinion then, though. It's obviously debatable and some element of stylistic preferences will come into play there, as I don't think there was a clear standout. Last year he made a much more convincing argument, I'd have thought.
Don't agree on Kroos being better than Ballack and Schweinsteiger (Thiago being better is an absolute joke). Ballack and Schweinsteiger are equal, very hard to separate both, but both have been better than Kroos because of their leadership capabilties. Ballack is rightly amplified for the exact reason, people say Germany was crap in the 00's but we still managed to reach two major finals and one semi-final. Why? Ballack! So many great moments, the whole of the 2002 WC, his performance v Argentina in 2006 where he played on one leg all of extra time, and then went forward to score a penalty, the goal against Austria to take them into the quarterfinal at Euro 08 (followed by another goal v Portugal).
I'm not even going to bring Thiago into this conversation because he has no right to be in the same breath as the other three. Thiago has certainly been great lately, but Kroos and Schweinsteiger have been at that level for years now and have won trophies at the national, European and World stage. Ballack, while not having the same success, was at a higher level for most of his career as well.
About talent. I'd say Kroos is the most talented out of all named above, he could play at a world class level both as an attacking midfielder (under Heynckes at Bayern) and as a deep midfielder, where he currently plays. He has the ability to dictate play from deep and score 10+ goals a season consistently (something Thiago has never shown in his career). I've always said that Kroos has never fulfilled that talent because he was shoehorned into a deep midfield role, when he could've been one of the most complete midfielder's in the world with his ability to come deep and then move forward to score goals (like he played under Heynckes).
Yea I remember in 2006, when it was decided that he was leaving for free, I think Hoeness (or Karl Heinz) came out and said he wasn't good enough in the big European games (he then followed up and scored a worldy against AC Milan). There was a lot of animosity from Bayern fans that time when he left for free. That is understandable, to see your best player leave the club and you get nothing for it.
All true and I don't want to downtalk Ballack by any means. But he was the standout player in rather weak teams. He played in arguably the weakeast national team Germany ever fielded. He played at Bayern when they had a particularly bad phase and were lightyears away from Real, Barcelona, Milan, United and the likes. At Chelsea, he never stood out like he did for Bayern, Leverkusen or Germany.
Kroos on the other hand was at least the second best midfielder in the world over multiple years. One of the first names on the team sheet in a team that won three CLs in a row. Ballack never played in such teams and if we're being honest he wouldn't have made the starting eleven there during his time. But Thiago, Kroos and Schweinsteiger did. They ran the show at the best teams in the world. Ballack hasn't proved himself at that level and I doubt he'd have been capable of doing so.
I understand that Thiago's title cabinet falls short a bit but on the other hand, his performances this season were truly amazing and right now he might be what Modric was until two years ago. Generally, he has the greatest ability out of the four discussed players since his ball control and pressing resistency is something else while his passing ability is still greater than Schweinsteiger's and Ballack's.
Had the discussion Kroos vs. Schweinsteiger here one or two years ago, I think. IMO, Schweinsteiger is a bit overrated in England. He was a phenomenal player but I don't think he reached the precision and consistency Kroos has accomplished.
This. I don't think you can count de Bruyne as a midfielder anymore since his responsibilities in possession are that of an attacker nowadays. With him out of the equation, it's probably between Kroos, Modric, Thiago, Verratti and Kimmich. And between them, Thiago edges it for me, since Modric has declined quite a bit.
At Chelsea, he didn't stand out because he had to take a deeper role to accomodate Lampard, who was always going to be Chelsea's attacking midfielder. During times when Lampard wasn't available (end of 07-08 season), Ballack took over and looked just as good as he was at Bayern. He was very key in challenging United to the title till the last day of the season. Even as a deeper midfielder, he was great at Chelsea and a key player in a team that were a penalty away from winning the UCL and outplayed Pep's Barcelona (should've gone to the final). The 4 years Ballack was at Chelsea, they recorded 83, 85, 83 and 86 points, which are good enough to win titles in many seasons, it was just that they faced arguably Fergie's best United team and therefore only won 1 title. During the same time, Ballack was continuing to play a key role for Germany in international competitions.
The fact that you say Ballack would not start in any of the teams that Schweinsteiger, Thiago or Kroos played for pretty much says you don't rate his ability to what it should be. Goretzka was starting for Bayern last season, you seriously think Ballack wouldn't start over him? Ballack would certainly have started ahead of either Kroos or Modric (given the other is starting, both being very similar players) in the Madrid team because of his sheer ability to score goals that neither would be able to match, Ballack was scoring at rates strikers would be proud off at his peak (42 goals in 98 matches for Germany). That doesn't take into account his defensive and passing ability. You talk about press retention as if that's the only thing that matters for midfielders, you do realize midfielders are also allowed to score goals and defend?
Ballack never proved himself at that level, when did he have the chance to prove himself at that level? He was a consistent starter for Chelsea that was one of the best teams in Europe and reached the UCL final. How is reaching two major national finals not proving himself at the highest level?
What does that even mean?
Him being an extraordinary passer and attacking minded midfielder, doesn't change the fact, that he is... well, midfielder! A pretty damn complete one if you look at his skilset.
And overall, the best, out of the modern ones mentioned here.
I disagree with this part. Madrid didn’t need their midfields to score at a high rate. They had enough ammunition in attack. They needed midfielders that could control and dictate the game. Also, Kroos & Modric aren’t similar at all which is why they compliment each other so well.
Rubbish from start to finish.
Some of these opinions are actually comical. We actually saw Kroos and Schweinsteiger play together. How could you come to the conclusion Kross was better?
Ballack was a monster no matter how you paint it. He played in trash sides and actually made them look good. Don't be fooled by his old version at Chelsea, the guy had it all.
Thiago has always been elite. The complains about were always well off the mark. His biggest issue is he's injury prone, you can't question his footballing ability.
Yeah, I watched both a lot and Kroos is simply a better footballer. He's more dominant than Schweinsteiger, he did it for a much longer period than Schweinsteiger, he won more titles than Schweinsteiger and most importantly, his passing ability, pressing resistency and positioning simply is superior to Schweinsteiger's. Kroos' precision and consistency is unrivalled. In my book, in a ranking of the best midfielders he comes immediately behind Xavi, Iniesta and Modric in the last 10-15 years. But even if you prefer Schweinsteiger for whatever reasons, it's hard to understand how anyone can think it's comical to have Kroos ahead of Schweinsteiger. Kroos won four CLs and made it into the UEFA team of the year three times. Schweinsteiger won one CL and hasn't even got a single nomination. As a footballer, he's not at Kroos' level and he hasn't any advantage in terms of achievements or trophies that could make up for it.
And I grew up watching Ballack play. He was the star player at Leverkusen and almost lead us to a triple. One of my childhood idols but truth be told not on the level of Kroos, Schweinsteiger and Thiago. There was no point in time in which you could legitly claim that Ballack was the best midfielder on the planet. Not even top 3 I'd say.
His peak has literally been one game - the CL final.
Outside of that he's been good to very good in his career, nothing more though.
People forget that never actually was a "surefire" starter for Bayern while he was there. Yes, he also started a lot, but he wasn't untouchable. He actually sat on the bench in a lot of important games.
In terms of technique he's one of the best midfielders ever, but there's so much more to being a great midfielder than just superb technique and style.
There is a reason Bayern fans said that Thiago has to play great in a big game for once (right before the CL final).
Just ask yourself this: Before the CL tournament in Lisbon and before he was linked to Liverpool, how many people actually gushed over Thiago and put him in their "best midfielders" ranking?
Hardly anyone.
Has much to do with most fans not being able to identify a good midfielder performance when it happens before their eyes. Their judgment of players is usually reminiscent of Comunio ratings. Score a goal, you're great. Give an assist, you're good. Don't feck up and your team wins, you're okay. Don't feck up and your team loses, you've been bad. feck up and your team wins, you're okay. feck up and your team loses, you're atrocious. Bonus points for slide tackles and shouting.
Kroos is a bit better in terms of technique and passing, but that's it.
Schweinsteiger was vastly superior as a leader.
No way Germany wins that WC against Argentina without Schweinsteiger's sheer willpower in that final.
Kroos has always come across as somewhat of a coward.
Wasn't he one of the players that were too afraid to shoot a penalty against Chelsea in the 2012 CL final?
Missing your penalty is one thing, but not even having the balls to shoot (even Neuer took a pen) is ... whew.
So Guardiola is an idiot then, since even he, who rated Thiago so highly, benched him in many important CL games.
Guardiola is indeed an idiot in the CL knock-out stages, I suggest you watch some tape of his teams of the last half decade.
Such a stupid argument. Is Mourinho an idiot because he sold De Bruyne?
Spot on
You've repeated this a few times, you seem to believe you're the only person able to "identify a good midfielder performance", you should probably get into coaching!
Thank goodness you are here to tell us what a good performance looks like.
They didn't have a consistent goal threat other than Ronaldo. Benzema wasn't scoring regularly, partly due to shifting positions to accomodate Ronaldo, but overall they were reliant on Ronaldo. That was evident in many UCL matches where Ronaldo would single handedly win them matches, they would have benefited from having a midfielder to provide a goalscoring threat.
That being said, you can argue that Ronaldo being as great as he was was reason for them to play Modric and Kroos, they didn't need midfielders to score goals but more to help them hold possession and cover ground that Ronaldo wouldn't cover in defense. That also being said, Ballack was pretty good at passing and defending himself and could easily slot into a deeper role, like he did for Chelsea later on.
Hes only ever played more than 27 league games once in a season - and never more than 30
Hes for sure a good addition to Liverpool and brings with him a different type of game to midfielders they already have but I doubt he will start 25 games for them in the premier league
The most games hes ever started in a league season is 27 (twice - once with bayern and once with barca)
he averaged 18 league starts a season with Bayern and the same with Barca
Hes moving to the premier league and is almost 30 - Ill be surprised if all of a sudden he becomes that mainstay of a midfield - no doubt he will have some great games and be a great option for Liverpool (especially in Europe I think)
You mean the Guardiola who famously said "Thiago or nothing"? The Guardiola who fired Bayern's iconic fan favourite medic Müller-Wohlfahrt because he disagreed with Thiago being match fit? The Guardiola who then almost ruined Thiago's career by rushing him back prematurely since he deemed him so important?
Because if you do, then Thiago was injured for 452 days during Pep's three years at Bayern. Maybe that might have played a role.
If you disagree with me, how about some profound arguments instead some pointless tongue in cheek?
Thiago is world class but more importantly, he does not throw tantrums, does not have an out of control ego & have mysterious injuries keeping him out for virtually an entire season
The only thing Kroos has over Schweinsteiger is passing. Everything else is in Bastians favour. More importantly Schweinsteiger was streets ahead of him defensively.
Teams win team titles so that's not saying much. If Kroos was playing for Bayern post 2013 instead of Bastian they still wouldn't have won the CL given the mess they created with their tactics. It can't be the players fault that Bayern made a poor decision In their front office(hiring pep)
Where has Kroos been in recent years? Where were these dominant performances in recent years. He's still in his prime isn't he? What about the world cup, what was he up to? How about the city tie last season, all I saw was KDB all over Madrid with no answer for him. As if a team deteriorates around a player there's not much he'll win/dominate.
People here aren't able to judge players independent of their teams accomplishments it seems. Something I find quite strange. It's why dome dare say Thiago has only started being elite now which is crazy.
Then people are more clueless than you'd think. He's just injury prone, doubting his quality as a footballer though is madness. He's always been on my lists.
I disagree that most people don't know how to identify a good midfield performance, and I think you come across as arrogant in your way of expressing yourself. What else do you want me to say?
Career and playing level its:
Kroos > Schweinsteiger > Ballack > Thiago. Bit harsh on Ballack given that he played longer on the highest level than Schweinsteiger and had worse NT to play with but Schweinsteiger 2013 had a higher peak and his WC performances 2010/14 were just as good as Ballack 2002/06. Kroos is ahead of both because he`s a machine. Not many fans appreciate him but the guy is basically flawless and he`ll be second best German midfielder of all time behind Matthäus when he retires. Thiago is a distant 4th because he has yet to produce multiple high quality years.
Going by purely talent it`s probably Thiago > Kroos > Ballack > Schweinsteiger but just talent doesn`t count for much.
If Thiago lights it up with Liverpool he can definitely overtake the others (don`t think he`ll overtake Kroos) but he needs to stay injury free and produce for multiple years, doubt that`s gonna happen. Still a great buy from Pool.
Kroos > Schweinsteiger > Ballack > Thiago. Bit harsh on Ballack given that he played longer on the highest level than Schweinsteiger and had worse NT to play with but Schweinsteiger 2013 had a higher peak and his WC performances 2010/14 were just as good as Ballack 2002/06. Kroos is ahead of both because he`s a machine. Not many fans appreciate him but the guy is basically flawless and he`ll be second best German midfielder of all time behind Matthäus when he retires. Thiago is a distant 4th because he has yet to produce multiple high quality years.
Going by purely talent it`s probably Thiago > Kroos > Ballack > Schweinsteiger but just talent doesn`t count for much.
If Thiago lights it up with Liverpool he can definitely overtake the others (don`t think he`ll overtake Kroos) but he needs to stay injury free and produce for multiple years, doubt that`s gonna happen. Still a great buy from Pool.
Good Lord, you come across as so arrogant and full of yourself, I don't know if I should just ignore you or actually try to continue the discussion ...
Yes, I mean Pep Guardiola. The guy, who benched Thiago in many important CL games (vs Juve, vs Atletico etc.), even when Thiago was fully fit.
Thiago used to be a liability (at least compared to Kroos for example) in midfield for us because he'd occasionally misplace a pass/lose the ball during build-up, and also being quite weak when tackling. Keita is still having that problem for Liverpool (also trying to dribble in the centre of the field, often losing the ball). Thiago improved quite significantly though and has become quite a good tackler and much less prone to brainf*cks and less Hollywood-passes. He'll improve that Liverpool midfield significantly if he can stay fit.
I'd definitely disagree that Ballack was the inferior player. He wasn't as great as a dribbler as Thiago (who is though?), but he could keep it simple in the middle, was a hard worker and just a very complete player and a true leader. A better version of Henderson you could say. One could argue that someone with a great affinity to technical midfielders (like Pep) could have preferred prime (current) Thiago to Ballack, but for most other teams, Ballack would start over him in my opinion.
It's all about opinions in football, at least for us fans. You sound quite arrogant tbh, no offense.
Here their career stats past 2010 (so Schweinsteiger was already moved to a central position back then):
Kroos/Schweinsteiger
Passing accuracy:
91% / 87.2%
Key passes per game:
2.1 / 1.2
Minutes per assist:
365 / 574
Long balls per game:
6.4 / 6.8
Through balls per game:
0.2 / 0.1
Dispossessions per game:
0.7 / 01.3
Unsure technique per game:
0.5 / 0. 8
That's not just "a bit better". Mentality is far too intangible for me. For what it's worth, I could understand that argument if we were discussing Özil but not Kroos.
I don't know what you expect. You knew the context fully well and still made that argument. And you stick with it instead of admitting that this was not a fair assessment whatsoever. If you really think that Thiago being out for almost 50% of the time under Guardiola (and that's not counting the time it takes to get into shape after an injury) played no part in him not starting in those games, then you should put me on ignore.
Passing is the bread and butter for a midfielder. And no, Kroos is also more pressing resistant. And Schweinsteiger's defensive contribution is really exaggerated in here. It's not as if he's played like he did in that final throughout his whole career. There's a reason he was usually paired with a defensive minded CM. The stats back that up as well: He's got 1.2 tackles per game and 1.4 interceptions per game compared to Kroos 0.8 und 1. Thiago for instance is at 2.3 tackles and 1.9 interceptions.
I've followed Schweinsteiger very closely throughout his whole career. He always was one of my favourite German players but he simply wasn't as talented as the generation that followed him. And yes, he had a great mentality in his later years but there's only so much you can compensate through the right mindset.
My point is that in midfield, you make many subtle plays that help controlling the game and initiating attacks that won't appear in any stats and are often missed if you don't pay attention to them. That's much harder to judge and assess than scorers so people with less knowledge or less involvement are more likely to rate players like Ballack who scores a lot and overall has a completely different (physical) presence than a player like Thiago. You have to pay more attention to the details and naturally less people will do that. Do you disagree with that?
That's a reasonable way of seeing it, I think. To me, Thiago has already showed enough but I can understand if one sees that differently. The guy just disarms you. If you can't press a team with Bayern's quality properly, you basically just wait for them to score a goal sooner or later.
Ballack was the best midfielder in the world in 2002. Absolute beast and none of Schweinsteiger Thiago nor Kroos reached the level of 2002 Ballack. He dragged the worst German side into the world cup final after he did the same for Leverkusen
Ballack was a force of nature the most complete midfielder I have ever seen in attack and defence
I have reasons to be salty about Ballack leaving Bayern as our captain and moving to Chelsea but I will never deny his greatness
Around 2006, there were rumors that Ferguson offered him Man utd captain band to get him from Bayern. He was that good
Watch Leverkusen vs Liverpool 4-2 2002 CL quarters, world cup 2002
Pity he didn't stay long at Bayern
Ballack >>>>Schweinsteiger >> Kroos=Thiago
I mean, I'm a Leverkusen fan. Was still a child back then but it's not like I haven't eitnessed all that myself. And I think it's quite a stretch to suggest Ballack was the best in 2002. You're basically saying he was better than Zidane, young Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Nedved, Davids, Scholes, Keane, Viera etc. and that's IMO quite a stretch.
It's true that Ballack was a very complete player and could really drag a team with him but I don't think that this is so important in the end because top players play with top players after all. Kroos and Thiago never had Ballack's scoring capabilities but they are specialists and extremely good in what they do best. As I said, Kroos was one of the best players in the team that had the most successful run of form in recent history. Ballack never proved himself in such a team and I don't think he would've played there since they had enough goal scorers and needed one to pull the strings. And Kroos is much better at doing it. Same goes for Thiago, but he's less proven than Kroos. That's just the way modern football has developed. You have specialists, not generalists.