The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

Status
Not open for further replies.
For me this is the best assessment of Trump pulling out of Syria and Afghanistan from someone influential:



The way he did it was stupid, but at least he did something beyond following the defence / foreign policy establishment. It's not unreasonable to think following the establishment is more dangerous than the alternative, in this set of circumstances. To me that's one of the pluses of Trump compared to someone like Romney. Realistically very few decisions Trump has made are his own, and even on this he compromised and delayed for a long time, but this is one which I think could benefit the world as a whole. Reasonable people can disagree on that, and perhaps the situation is so difficult that every decision is a bad decision, but at the very least it's refreshing to see a different perspective at the top.
 
Brwned said:
For me this is the best assessment of Trump pulling out of Syria and Afghanistan from someone influential:



The way he did it was stupid, but at least he did something beyond following the defence / foreign policy establishment. It's not unreasonable to think following the establishment is more dangerous than the alternative, in this set of circumstances. To me that's one of the pluses of Trump compared to someone like Romney. Realistically very few decisions Trump has made are his own, and even on this he compromised and delayed for a long time, but this is one which I think could benefit the world as a whole. Reasonable people can disagree on that, and perhaps the situation is so difficult that every decision is a bad decision, but at the very least it's refreshing to see a different perspective at the top.
Click to expand...


I never get this line of thinking. If the different perspective is fecking stupid, in what universe is that refreshing?
 
Giant Midget said:
I never get this line of thinking. If the different perspective is fecking stupid, in what universe is that refreshing?
Click to expand...

Yes if the decision was clearly wrong with strong evidence that the only choice was a different choice, then someone making a different choice just to be different shouldn't be celebrated. That wasn't my thinking or my point. When you strip away the context of a sentence, the original meaning gets lost very quickly.

If you add that context back in then, what I was saying was, I think it's a very complex situation which so far hasn't been managed well, the evidence for continuing on the current path is far from perfect, and there is reason to think an alternative path could make things better.

Maybe the result of it might be going back to a similar approach as before, because while it doesn't work that well it's the best thing we know of (taking into account what the people in power in the US really want). But even if this different approach in the short-term was to force the foreign policy establishment to justify their approach more, re-evaluate different parts of it, and be more transparent about what the objectives are, what the costs of doing it this way are, and generally about the reality of the situation, that would be a meaningful step forward. The status quo will never achieve that.
 
ErranMorad said:
That's one side of it. But there is also another side where a record number of women and minorities were elected to the house this last election. And not only from majority minority districts but also from majority white districts. The voting numbers were highest in a century. 60m people voted for democratic candidates in the last mid-terms; which was 33% more than the number of people who voted for the repubs in 2010. There is every sign the people are more engaged in the democratic process now than they have been in the recent past.

I know the dog and pony show gets the more traction and is more existing to discuss. Criminal justice reform bill gets may be 10 posts but a toilet paper struck on Trump shoes get 10 pages. However, that doesn't change the fact that good things are happening too and there is more awareness. I am hopeful that we'll come better off once this shit show is over. There is an appetite to change the status quo, and whoever is next will have no choice but to make it happen. Yeah, the wannabe freeloaders and welfare mooches will not be happy, but feck those basement dwelling unrealistic cnuts anyway. 2016 was an anomaly, going ahead there will be enough independents and people who were earlier apathetic who'll come forward to render the militant 'Jill Stein' voting wankers insignificant.
Click to expand...

That's a total mischaracterisation of this thread and the people who post in it.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
That's a total mischaracterisation of this thread and the people who post in it.
Click to expand...

It's hyperbole but this is the only thread I've read fairly continuously for a couple of years and the essence of the point rings true to me.
 
Brwned said:
It's hyperbole but this is the only thread I've read fairly continuously for a couple of years and the essence of the point rings true to me.
Click to expand...

I dunno. The dumb stuff he says and does gets the lols, but equally his policy gets plenty of discussion here. It's an extreme exaggeration. Even the various nuanced tangents that spring up here get more pages than the dumb shit.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I dunno. The dumb stuff he says and does gets the lols, but equally his policy gets plenty of discussion here. It's an extreme exaggeration. Even the various nuanced tangents that spring up here get more pages than the dumb shit.
Click to expand...

Personally I think at least half of the conversation about Trump on here is about things that are objectively unimportant. In lots of cases people spend so much time talking about his "distraction tactics", while at the same time being the ones to start the conversation about the distractions themselves. There is plenty of substantive conversation in here - no question. However it is always true that some important stuff is boring, and Trump does lots of unimportant stuff that becomes "news-worthy". A large part of that is just purely dumb stuff. I think we're quite far from the ideal balance of substantive discussion, personally.
 
Brwned said:
Personally I think at least half of the conversation about Trump on here is about things that are objectively unimportant. In lots of cases people spend so much time talking about his "distraction tactics", while at the same time being the ones to start the conversation about the distractions themselves. There is plenty of substantive conversation in here - no question. However it is always true that some important stuff is boring, and Trump does lots of unimportant stuff that becomes "news-worthy". A large part of that is just purely dumb stuff. I think we're quite far from the ideal balance of substantive discussion, personally.
Click to expand...

Sure, but even if we agree on at least half, that's still far less than was implied.
 
Eboue said:
  • Obama had a Secretary of Defense who founded a telecom company and was on the board of Chevron.
  • His first director of the National Economic Counsel was a hedge fund manager.
  • One of his Treasury Secretaries was formerly an executive at Citigroup.
  • His Attorney General was a partner at a law firm whose clients included Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo.
  • His Secretary of the Interior voted for tax breaks for Exxon and removing protections against offshore drilling and against higher fuel efficiency standards and a bill to require the Army Corps of Engineers to consider global warming.
  • One of his secretaries of commerce was a director at Boeing.
  • Another secretary of commerce was an heiress to the Hyatt Hotel fortune.
Click to expand...

Yea there's absolutely nothing new about conflicts of interest in those appointments from Trump, let's not pretend he's the first person to give lobbyists jobs.

It's fecked up, but it's not unusual.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Sure, but even if we agree on at least half, that's still far less than was implied.
Click to expand...

Maybe. I think he just chose the most extreme examples - really boring but important legislation, and really ridiculous schadenfreude - and exaggerated the imbalance for effect. I'm not sure he really meant that the bulk of the conversation falls into those two buckets, and the distribution of the discussion always follows that (exaggerated) pattern. But maybe I'm being too kind...
 
unchanged_lineup said:
That's a total mischaracterisation of this thread and the people who post in it.
Click to expand...
Plus it was nothing to do with Trump. It's almost identical to a bi partisan bill that had passed the GOP house, would have been signed by Obama and would have easily passed the Senate, but knowing this McConnell wouldn't allow a vote, because McConnell is the kind of evil devils dream about.

Now McConnell doesn't have to fear passing a bill, he allowed the vote.

Trump was probably golfing through the whole thing and couldn't even tell you the cosponsors names.
 
Brwned said:
Personally I think at least half of the conversation about Trump on here is about things that are objectively unimportant. In lots of cases people spend so much time talking about his "distraction tactics", while at the same time being the ones to start the conversation about the distractions themselves. There is plenty of substantive conversation in here - no question. However it is always true that some important stuff is boring, and Trump does lots of unimportant stuff that becomes "news-worthy". A large part of that is just purely dumb stuff. I think we're quite far from the ideal balance of substantive discussion, personally.
Click to expand...
So we should ignore the fact that the president of the united states is a fecking ignorant moron? You might find it a distraction but tens of millions of us don't. We remember every dumb thing he said or done. This is a career white collar criminal and fraudster in the most powerful position in the world with a narcissistic personality disorder, everything he says or does is important. The fact that you don't see this makes you an easy mark for him.
 




Well here he goes. He knows impeachment is on the cards and his Tweets make him sound very nervous and very guilty, so he's getting his excuses in early. As ways, ignoring the facts he has destabilized the economy already with his bullshit tarrifs, and that he can't be impeached unless he has done something wrong.

He really is as thick as pigshit, just a shame those who still support him are too.
 
Eboue said:
  • Obama had a Secretary of Defense who founded a telecom company and was on the board of Chevron.
  • His first director of the National Economic Counsel was a hedge fund manager.
  • One of his Treasury Secretaries was formerly an executive at Citigroup.
  • His Attorney General was a partner at a law firm whose clients included Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo.
  • His Secretary of the Interior voted for tax breaks for Exxon and removing protections against offshore drilling and against higher fuel efficiency standards and a bill to require the Army Corps of Engineers to consider global warming.
  • One of his secretaries of commerce was a director at Boeing.
  • Another secretary of commerce was an heiress to the Hyatt Hotel fortune.
Click to expand...

Rado_N said:
Yea there's absolutely nothing new about conflicts of interest in those appointments from Trump, let's not pretend he's the first person to give lobbyists jobs.

It's fecked up, but it's not unusual.
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the point of the person's tweet in your wish to attack Obama.
 
GiddyUp said:
So we should ignore the fact that the president of the united states is a fecking ignorant moron? You might find it a distraction but tens of millions of us don't. We remember every dumb thing he said or done. This is a career white collar criminal and fraudster in the most powerful position in the world with a narcissistic personality disorder, everything he says or does is important. The fact that you don't see this makes you an easy mark for him.
Click to expand...

I think this is too simplistic a way to look at it. I don't want to talk about this thread but in general the corporate Democrat media (MSNBC, NY Times, Wash Post and some ABC, CNN hosts) are playing right into Trump's hands. They are constantly reporting on Trump in a way that constantly lets Trump frame the debates how he wants. They keep falling into the classic framing errors that George Lakoff discusses in Moral Politics. MSNBC is particularly awful at this still giving more time to the disgruntled GOP "never Trumps" than they ever have to true progressives like Bernie.

I've also talked with some friends who have similar observations as I: that the Trump outrage machine is not going to defeat Trump in 2020. The corporate Dems seem to still be making the same mistake HRC did in thinking that "omg look at how awful Trump is, vote for us" is the way to win. The midterms and the success and momentum of the progressive candidates should be teaching the establishment DNC leaders that "OMG look what Trump did" is not a winning strategy. Pushing forward actual ideas is what can defeat Trump not constantly cringing at his tweets - which is why the conservative media is going into overdrive in fear of Ocasio-Cortez because she refuses to play the corporate Dem OMG Look at Trump game and instead is focusing on the issues that actually matter. This is why the conservative media is obsessed with trying to discredit her and not at all worried about whatever the pro-Corker/Flake former CIA establishment shill on MSNBC is saying.

Also for the record I don't think he is a "ignorant moron". That is exactly the feint that he wants the media to see. The Democrats really need to learn from fecking Sun Tzu,
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

The national Democrat leaders seem to know neither their real enemy nor do they know themselves (their true base). OMG Look What Trump Tweet, Vote Democrat is not a winning message and the national DNC really needs to evolve past just being the Trump Tweeter Outrage Machine.
 
Eboue said:
No you dont. So many of these stories are completely forgotten about weeks later. It's not even limited to trump. No one will remember rashida tlaib's comments in a couple weeks. No one will care about Romney's op ed in March.
Click to expand...

That can't be true, we all remember the anonymous NYT op-ed that changed the presidency.
 
berbatrick said:
That can't be true, we all remember the anonymous NYT op-ed that changed the presidency.
Click to expand...
Or the moment Lindsey Graham said his party will go down in flames if they nominate him and they’ll deserve it.

Paul Ryan stepped down with 12% approval rating, but somehow Pelosi and Warren are known for ‘unlikeability’. Most ‘remember’ things that are constantly drummed into their heads, and the sheer volume of absurdities from Trump make sure they will get filtered out.
 
Last edited:
Eboue said:
No you dont. So many of these stories are completely forgotten about weeks later. It's not even limited to trump. No one will remember rashida tlaib's comments in a couple weeks. No one will care about Romney's op ed in March.
Click to expand...

Yeah these are the only things I remember about Trump:
  • Tax cuts for the rich
  • Kavanaugh
  • Tariffs and isolationist policy
  • Sending the military to the border to stop desperate, poor refugees
  • Deregulation across multi-industries that we don't even know the negatives yet
  • Benefitting the telecoms against Net netruality
I don't give two fecks what word he capitalized on his Tweeterings last week
 
GiddyUp said:
So we should ignore the fact that the president of the united states is a fecking ignorant moron? You might find it a distraction but tens of millions of us don't. We remember every dumb thing he said or done. This is a career white collar criminal and fraudster in the most powerful position in the world with a narcissistic personality disorder, everything he says or does is important. The fact that you don't see this makes you an easy mark for him.
Click to expand...

An easy mark...can you elaborate how? You're perfectly entitled to your view that everything he does is important. Personally I think that places too much importance on the presidency, and there's plenty of academic articles analysing that very thing with mixed results. So I disagree but it's open to debate.

Your first sentence suggests you've misunderstood my view, though. I don't think you should ignore that he's a moron. That single fact is one of the most dangerous things about him being in that role. I think people should be aware of what he's doing personally and what the implications of that are.

I just think the idea that all of his decisions carry serious implications is a huge exaggeration, fuels a lot of this thread, and leads to a lot of people wasting their time on things that are at the very least less important than many other things. Even if you think everything is important, there's still a relative scale.

And I don't think everything is a distraction, my point was that the same people who describe it as a distraction tactic then go on to post another 5 times about the specific distraction that day. That makes no sense to me personally.
 
Last edited:
oneniltothearsenal said:
Yeah these are the only things I remember about Trump:
  • Tax cuts for the rich
  • Kavanaugh
  • Tariffs and isolationist policy
  • Sending the military to the border to stop desperate, poor refugees
  • Deregulation across multi-industries that we don't even know the negatives yet
  • Benefitting the telecoms against Net netruality
I don't give two fecks what word he capitalized on his Tweeterings last week
Click to expand...

You mean you dont remember "the local milk people"?
 
Eboue said:
  • Obama had a Secretary of Defense who founded a telecom company and was on the board of Chevron.
  • His first director of the National Economic Counsel was a hedge fund manager.
  • One of his Treasury Secretaries was formerly an executive at Citigroup.
  • His Attorney General was a partner at a law firm whose clients included Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo.
  • His Secretary of the Interior voted for tax breaks for Exxon and removing protections against offshore drilling and against higher fuel efficiency standards and a bill to require the Army Corps of Engineers to consider global warming.
  • One of his secretaries of commerce was a director at Boeing.
  • Another secretary of commerce was an heiress to the Hyatt Hotel fortune.
Click to expand...
Obama never shouted "Drain the swamp!".
 
Eboue said:
No you dont. So many of these stories are completely forgotten about weeks later. It's not even limited to trump. No one will remember rashida tlaib's comments in a couple weeks. No one will care about Romney's op ed in March.
Click to expand...
Yes we do.
 
langster said:




Well here he goes. He knows impeachment is on the cards and his Tweets make him sound very nervous and very guilty, so he's getting his excuses in early. As ways, ignoring the facts he has destabilized the economy already with his bullshit tarrifs, and that he can't be impeached unless he has done something wrong.

He really is as thick as pigshit, just a shame those who still support him are too.
Click to expand...


Here he goes, starts blaming the financial markets ln the Dems, never his fault or his god awful policies/trade wars, no sir.
 
Eboue said:
  • Obama had a Secretary of Defense who founded a telecom company and was on the board of Chevron.
  • His first director of the National Economic Counsel was a hedge fund manager.
  • One of his Treasury Secretaries was formerly an executive at Citigroup.
  • His Attorney General was a partner at a law firm whose clients included Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo.
  • His Secretary of the Interior voted for tax breaks for Exxon and removing protections against offshore drilling and against higher fuel efficiency standards and a bill to require the Army Corps of Engineers to consider global warming.
  • One of his secretaries of commerce was a director at Boeing.
  • Another secretary of commerce was an heiress to the Hyatt Hotel fortune.
Click to expand...

Yes but he was black so we ignore all that.

Just celebrate the fact that Trump gets a light shone on these things.

Then hope that perhaps maybe, just maybe, there’s a groundswell of back to basics democracy that can win out in another two years.

I don’t hold out much hope. But Trump being there allows a lot more light to be shone on the truly shitty and destructive system that is the American Political system.
 
Brwned said:
An easy mark...can you elaborate how? You're perfectly entitled to your view that everything he does is important. Personally I think that places too much importance on the presidency, and there's plenty of academic articles analysing that very thing with mixed results. So I disagree but it's open to debate.

Your first sentence suggests you've misunderstood my view, though. I don't think you should ignore that he's a moron. That single fact is one of the most dangerous things about him being in that role. I think people should be aware of what he's doing personally and what the implications of that are.

I just think the idea that all of his decisions carry serious implications is a huge exaggeration, fuels a lot of this thread, and leads to a lot of people wasting their time on things that are at the very least less important than many other things. Even if you think everything is important, there's still a relative scale.

And I don't think everything is a distraction, my point was that the same people who describe it as a distraction tactic then go on to post another 5 times about the specific distraction that day. That makes no sense to me personally.
Click to expand...
He's been like this for most of his life in the public eye so as to distract from the dumb way he has run his business. I've never come across someone so fecking low yet gets away with it but now he has his wish of 24/7 trump and its sending him over the edge.
His insults, obliviousness to reality and other dumb shit is not a distraction from, I agree with you, the more serious concerns but they are indicative of a sick and juvenile mind that should be in no way placed to make decisions for hundreds of millions of people.
The only mystery left of this asshole are his returns and the trump org books which will hopefully be cracked wide open this year. He's a pathological liar who has never felt the repercussions of his lies, this should be. To let that slide would be catastrophic for a society.
We can discuss the nuances of policy but this guy is not interested in that. You have to hit him where it hurts, his shell company and a constant bombardment on his character otherwise we will have an ex president and his family muddying the political discourse for the foreseeable future.
Imagine this cnut was you're boss and lied to you're face over and over, no way would you be having it.
I do know what you are saying but the way I see it is that none of this is acceptable or should be treated as the norm.
 
BrianMcClair'sBarnet said:
Is this another 'oh,Trump sounds nervous and desperate' situation where nothing actually happens..again ?
Click to expand...

Not really considering the Mueller investigation has ramped up and is heading towards taking down the bigger fish now. Putin Is obviously worried about what Butina has said or could say hence the recent events with them detaining Whelan.

AND the Dems took over the house yesterday and openly said they are going to investigate and attempt to impeach Trump.

It's all finally closing in on him.
 
langster said:




Well here he goes. He knows impeachment is on the cards and his Tweets make him sound very nervous and very guilty, so he's getting his excuses in early. As ways, ignoring the facts he has destabilized the economy already with his bullshit tarrifs, and that he can't be impeached unless he has done something wrong.

He really is as thick as pigshit, just a shame those who still support him are too.
Click to expand...

So much bullshits. He only cares about himself, his followers on Twitter and his fanbase.
 
GiddyUp said:
He's been like this for most of his life in the public eye so as to distract from the dumb way he has run his business. I've never come across someone so fecking low yet gets away with it but now he has his wish of 24/7 trump and its sending him over the edge.
His insults, obliviousness to reality and other dumb shit is not a distraction from, I agree with you, the more serious concerns but they are indicative of a sick and juvenile mind that should be in no way placed to make decisions for hundreds of millions of people.
The only mystery left of this asshole are his returns and the trump org books which will hopefully be cracked wide open this year. He's a pathological liar who has never felt the repercussions of his lies, this should be. To let that slide would be catastrophic for a society.
We can discuss the nuances of policy but this guy is not interested in that. You have to hit him where it hurts, his shell company and a constant bombardment on his character otherwise we will have an ex president and his family muddying the political discourse for the foreseeable future.
Imagine this cnut was you're boss and lied to you're face over and over, no way would you be having it.
I do know what you are saying but the way I see it is that none of this is acceptable or should be treated as the norm.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of that, other than what's the best action to take towards it. I fall in that bit between ignorance and constant, active vigilance. If you are in a position to expose his political corruption then I think you have an obligation to do so. If you have evidence about his corrupt business practices then I don't think you have an obligation to do, because there is a legitimate question about the legal principles involved regarding a political figure and his personal business that each individual is entitled to weigh up, but I personally would want you to expose that.

If you are someone reading public reporting about his constant lies, buffoonery and questionable political practices, then I don't think there's any need to constantly talk about it. I'm not saying you shouldn't if you want to, I just don't think it has any impact on anything. I certainly don't think it should be described as normalising it. It's just directing your energy towards the more important stuff. And I personally think that so much of the media spending so much time on the less important stuff is a disservice to the country, personally.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.