The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

[Massive Spanner]

Perhaps, but we did use the youngest squad in the league and still put up some of the best metrics you could ask for. That has nothing to do with Chelsea/United/City doing poorly as it was purely based on our play versus 19 other teams. That's reason for optimism. Tied best defense + second best offense + all the shot metrics to show that it was not an anomaly. In fact it shows we could have scored more with some better luck.

As a Spurs fan what I'm hoping for is further development in he starting XI that we've got. I also don't expect it to be perfect and I expect more bumps in the road, but I don't think it's unrealistic to also expect some further gradual progression that we've been seeing.

I'm happy you said "squad" though as that's what we've been improving: "the squad". Adding in rotation options like Janssen, Wanyama, Sissoko that we didn't have last season to give our other players a better rest and then some options like Nkoudou who add a style of play that we didn't have before. I think we've accomplished the goal myself and many other Spurs fans expected to accomplish as improving on the starting XI would have proven to be incredibly difficult if not impossible with signings that some would herald as such immediately.

The point myself and other Spurs fans are trying to make is that our squad is strong and it's made up of players that no one said, "oh that will make them immediately better" when they were signed. Even though that's what many have done whether immediately or over time.

No one heralded Dier as a first XI game changer, likewise Alli, did anyone think Alderweireld would put us all the way at the top of least goals allowed? It's fair to think that one of Wanyama, Janssen, Nkoudou, etc. might be more influential than initially expected. Especially as we see year after year, and not just for Spurs but for nearly every team, how the unheralded may make the greatest impact (Look at Bailly for United already, look at Kante last year) and the "big" transfers some say are statements of intent end up as duds.

All this is great but you simply can't deny that you haven't made your first XI any stronger this season through transfers even though you finished third last season. That's the underlying point here.

I don't think anyone is arguing against your squad being strong, it is, but it wasn't strong enough to win the PL last season, and with all rivals strengthening both players and staff, you're basically putting all your eggs in the "our current team will get even better" basket - which could prove true, to be fair, but it'd need to get much better to win the league.

 

[Mike09]

From Isco to Sissoko

they could have signed Ousmane Dembele and Mane but they prefer Sissoko.

 

[AlwaysRed66]

It is amazing how many people rate a player because of how well they did in the EURO's but seem to ignore their whole previous careers. Basically International Football in general is of a poor standard, full of matches against mediocre teams, with top players/teams never playing to their potential. That is the reason committed fit teams who work together as a unit did so well, like Portugal, Wales, Iceland, N Ireland. None are very good, except Portugal though not in the finals, but because they performed above their abilities for a few games everyone thinks their plays are world beaters. How many time have clubs bought players because of this after finals, only to find they have bought a dud.

The money in the premiership is crazy & more like playing football manager than being in the real world, where there is no real concern if 10's of millions are wasted.

Sissoko is a typical example of a bang average player going for a song just because he performed in a few International matches, & ignores the amount of dire performances he gave for Newcastle. Just look at the Newcastle fans reaction to his sale. They think it is a great deal for them, & who can blame them. Everton were just as stupid but fortunately for them the player wanted to go somewhere else.

 

[Sweech]

they could have signed Ousmane Dembele and Mane but they prefer Sissoko.

We wouldn't have signed Dembele. He chose Dortmund out of a lot of options and it wasn't like more $ was going to win him over as he turned down exactly that in choosing Dortmund over Bayern for example.

 

[GlastonSpur]

This reminds me of a time when Soldado cost £13m.

I can only suggest that you take it up with journalists concerned in both cases.

 

[Sweech]

All this is great but you simply can't deny that you haven't made your first XI any stronger this season through transfers even though you finished third last season. That's the underlying point here.

I don't think anyone is arguing against your squad being strong, it is, but it wasn't strong enough to win the PL last season, and with all rivals strengthening both players and staff, you're basically putting all your eggs in the "our current team will get even better" basket - which could prove true, to be fair, but it'd need to get much better to win the league.

Well my underlying point is that improving the first XI isn't a claim anyone can make when looking at transfers with a naked eye without having seen them play.

I've given examples, but again no one thought Alli was going to improve the first 11, yet he contributed massively, no one thought Kante would improve the first XI (everyone thought Inler would though and how did that turn out?) and yet he did massively. It's too early to say what impact these signings will have on the first XI.

Someone like Nkoudou who has the pace and direct aggressiveness that our squad lacks could easily be a first XI improvement, but we really don't know yet. That's the whole point we don't know yet, none of us do, it's all wait and see.

I've been down this road too many times to think that the big heralded signings are the only ones who could improve a first XI and the very unheralded likes of Dier, Alli, etc. Who everyone initially thinks are just there for depth or development won't.

 

[roonster09]

I can only suggest that you take it up with journalists concerned in both cases.

Journalist in this case said Spurs will pay 30 Million pounds. The wording is confusing but in the end Spurs will pay 30 Million pounds.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Spurs excuses in this forum were unbelievable before the season started, and now they are being deluded with £30m of Sissoko. Sissoko is awful, even at euro 2016 I don't know why so many people were overhyping his performances because what I watched from him was he can't do a simple thing that footballer does. Receiving a pass, I remember against Portugal twice he failed to receive a simple pass and the ball went pass through his legs lol. Sissoko is good for a hard-working player to help your full back against big clubs who has Ronaldo, Neymar, Bale. But for £30m you want a starter and a better player than him.

Excuses for what? Does only finishing 3rd and qualifying for the CL needs excusing? I don't think it does ... particularly when, according to the current income rankings, we should never finish higher than 6th.

And all the more so since a lot of our spare money has for years now being going into funding our new stadium complex and new training centre, with relatively little spent on players compared to our rivals. So to have finished top 4 three times in the last 7 years doesn't require any excusing either.

As for Sissoko, I'm not very happy about this transfer. But if Poch thinks he can mould him into something good - and clearly he must think this to have persuaded Levy to cough up the money - then I'm prepared give it the benefit of the doubt and wait to how it works out. After all, Poch's track record so far at Spurs is pretty good.

 

[Sweech]

Journalist in this case said Spurs will pay 30 Million pounds. The wording is confusing but in the end Spurs will pay 30 Million pounds.

Where's the ones saying 30? At most the highest I saw was 26 (which was his release clause I believe).

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Where's the ones saying 30? At most the highest I saw was 26 (which was his release clause I believe).

Moussa Sissoko: Tottenham pip Everton to £30m midfielder

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37230415

 

[roonster09]

Where's the ones saying 30? At most the highest I saw was 26 (which was his release clause I believe).

Almost every paper reported Sissoko cost 30 Million pounds. First time I'm seeing 26 Million.

 

[Sweech]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37230415

Almost every paper reported Sissoko cost 30 Million pounds. First time I'm seeing 26 Million.

Thought he was talking Soldado. Who was the player being mentioned in the post Glaston made which everyone replied to.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Well my underlying point is that improving the first XI isn't a claim anyone can make when looking at transfers with a naked eye without having seen them play.

I've given examples, but again no one thought Alli was going to improve the first 11, yet he contributed massively, no one thought Kante would improve the first XI (everyone thought Inler would though and how did that turn out?) and yet he did massively. It's too early to say what impact these signings will have on the first XI.

Someone like Nkoudou who has the pace and direct aggressiveness that our squad lacks could easily be a first XI improvement, but we really don't know yet. That's the whole point we don't know yet, none of us do, it's all wait and see.

I've been down this road too many times to think that the big heralded signings are the only ones who could improve a first XI and the very unheralded likes of Dier, Alli, etc. Who everyone initially thinks are just there for depth or development won't.

Exactly so. We all heard about the great improvements to United's first XI that di Maria or Scheinsteigger was supposedly going to make, or Benteke for Liverpool, or Otamendi for City, or Pedro for Chelsea. But it doesn't always work out that way.

 

[Sarni]

I can only suggest that you take it up with journalists concerned in both cases.

I'm just saying that Newcastle would not have allowed a deal that could leave them with as little as £6m or £12m if he left within 2 years which is not completely unrealistic given the fact that he will likely not even be a first team player for you. Everton would have paid a large chunk if not all of £30m up front.

 

[roonster09]

I'm just saying that Newcastle would not have allowed a deal that could leave them with as little as £6m or £12m if he left within 2 years which is not completely unrealistic given the fact that he will likely not even be a first team player for you. Everton would have paid a large chunk if not all of £30m up front.

The journalist who posted the story cleared it, it's just a normal transfer but worded differently.

 

[KingMinger22]

@GlastonSpur

Now that even the likes of Spurs, Palace, Leicester and Everton are signing players around the £30m mark, do you now accept that that is relatively "normal" fee in 2016?

 

[Mike09]

Excuses for what? Does only finishing 3rd and qualifying for the CL needs excusing? I don't think it does ... particularly when, according to the current income rankings, we should never finish higher than 6th.

And all the more so since a lot of our spare money has for years now being going into funding our new stadium complex and new training centre, with relatively little spent on players compared to our rivals. So to have finished top 4 three times in the last 7 years doesn't require any excusing either.

As for Sissoko, I'm not very happy about this transfer. But if Poch thinks he can mould him into something good - and clearly he must think this to have persuaded Levy to cough up the money - then I'm prepared give it the benefit of the doubt and wait to how it works out. After all, Poch's track record so far at Spurs is pretty good.

I'm not talking about how well you did last season. But I'm talking about how deluded your fans in this forum. A few weeks ago you lot thought that Spurs has done well with their signing so far N'koudou, Wanyama and Janssen. A lot of people in here have respect on Spurs and some of them give their opinion how Spurs should have done better in transfer window to improve their squad and also upgrade the starting eleven which potentially can challenge the league. So many excuses from Spurs fans in redcafe try to argue this, but the fact is your current squad aren't good enough to keep up what you did last season. And now, it sounds to me £30m for Sissoko is just a panic buy.

Especially for someone like you who I have seen so many times criticised other clubs transfer's windows. I let you know this, I rather have 1 Pogba than 3 Sissoko . Are you going to disagree with this?

 

[Mike09]

We wouldn't have signed Dembele. He chose Dortmund out of a lot of options and it wasn't like more $ was going to win him over as he turned down exactly that in choosing Dortmund over Bayern for example.

He turned it down because he knows he won't start, so he chooses Dortmund over Bayern. Are you trying to tell me that Dembele won't choose Spurs over Dortmund if Spurs offers more wages?

 

[GlastonSpur]

@GlastonSpur

Now that even the likes of Spurs, Palace, Leicester and Everton are signing players around the £30m mark, do you now accept that that is relatively "normal" fee in 2016?

No, even tho' you are now saying "relatively" normal compared to your previous assertion. The average fee paid across all players signed by Prem clubs will be far, far lower. There has been an increased incidence of £30+m fees, yes, but that doesn't make it normal.

 

[LouisDanGaal]

That Is a criminal overpay. Two of my friends who are Newcastle fans legitimately just wanted him out of the club, would have accepted a free as his lack of effort or care was poisonous. He wasn't even one of the best players in an awful, relegated, side. Still pocchetino is a good coach and spurs have looked very flat this season, if they can use him just for his transition play, tell him to not bother attempting with final product, just defer to alli or kane he might improve the team. 30 million is becoming a more and more normal price for a decent player, only a couple of years ago you could get sanchez for that, really boggles the mind that now gets you a benteke or sissokho or a nearly 30 luiz, or even untested players in the league like slimani.

 

[shaggy]

Counted 16 £25+ million transfers this summer in the prem, compared to 8 last summer. Seems a pretty normal fee to me now, West Brom were quoting £30 million for Evans ffs.

 

[Hed Zitin]

Delighted Levy has had to pay stupid money for Sissoko.

Spurs only really needed squad depth for Dier and Kane and they did it. They had a good starting eleven anyway.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I'm not talking about how well you did last season. But I'm talking about how deluded your fans in this forum. A few weeks ago you lot thought that Spurs has done well with their signing so far N'koudou, Wanyama and Janssen. A lot of people in here have respect on Spurs and some of them give their opinion how Spurs should have done better in transfer window to improve their squad and also upgrade the starting eleven which potentially can challenge the league. So many excuses from Spurs fans in redcafe try to argue this, but the fact is your current squad aren't good enough to keep up what you did last season. And now, it sounds to me £30m for Sissoko is just a panic buy.

Especially for someone like you who I have seen so many times criticised other clubs transfer's windows. I let you know this, I rather have 1 Pogba than 3 Sissoko . Are you going to disagree with this?

OK, so you don't rate our transfer strategy this summer and you don't think Spurs will finish in the top 4 (although you couch this as "fact" rather than just opinion). What has that got to do Spurs fans making excuses?

An excuse is an attempted explanation for failure (or doing something bad). But I haven't seen any Spurs fans on here who see any great failure that needs excusing. So I don't know what you are talking about with your reference to "excuses" both in this this post and in the one that I replied to earlier.

Re. Sissoko, I've already given my views - read back in the thread if you want to know what they are.

 

[GlastonSpur]

The journalist who posted the story cleared it, it's just a normal transfer but worded differently.

He didn't clear it. He went on to say (on Twitter):

@TomCStandard this 6 mill a year is for full amount yeah and not if he leaves we stop paying? Surely that's not right?

His reply: @pokeefe1 No, but clearly it would be renegotiated if he did leave. Ie, they sell him to Marseille, that would be part of renegotiation so you don't carry on paying for him if he leaves.

 

[Kraftwerker]

He didn't clear it. He went on to say (on Twitter):

@TomCStandard this 6 mill a year is for full amount yeah and not if he leaves we stop paying? Surely that's not right?

His reply: @pokeefe1 No, but clearly it would be renegotiated if he did leave. Ie, they sell him to Marseille, that would be part of renegotiation so you don't carry on paying for him if he leaves.

Surely that's just normal business.

Scenario:

Spurs buy Sissoko for £30m but pay in £6m instalments. This is normal practice.

He stays for 3 years and they pay £18m.

Marseille want to buy him for £20m but Spurs still owe £12m to Newcastle.

£12m goes to Newcastle. £8m to Spurs.

Not rocket science.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Surely that's just normal business.

Scenario:

Spurs buy Sissoko for £30m but pay in £6m instalments. This is normal practice.

He stays for 3 years and they pay £18m.

Marseille want to buy him for £20m but Spurs still owe £12m to Newcastle.

£12m goes to Newcastle. £8m to Spurs.

Not rocket science.

It doesn't sound like normal practice if "you don't carry on paying for him if he leaves."

Normally, a club agrees a fixed minimum fee (plus potential add-ons, if any) and an instalments plan and then you have to pay all of those instalments, regardless of whether and when you later sell that player ... because the contract is between you and the selling club and no-one else.

 

[Mike09]

OK, so you don't rate our transfer strategy this summer and you don't think Spurs will finish in the top 4 (although you couch this as "fact" rather than just opinion). What has that got to do Spurs fans making excuses?

An excuse is an attempted explanation for failure (or doing something bad). But I haven't seen any Spurs fans on here who see any great failure that needs excusing. So I don't know what you are talking about with your reference to "excuses" both in this this post and in the one that I replied to earlier.

I think you are the one who need to read back my post. When did I say Spurs won't finish top 4. I said your current squad isn't good enough to keep up what you did last season. Did you fight for top 4 last season? It looks to me you were challenging the league.
But then again everyone were still right to share their opinion few weeks ago about that they don't think it will be as easy as last season for Spurs after more top and world class managers came in, and the other clubs are strengthening their squad and starting eleven. It shows that the other clubs have shown more ambition than Spurs did in transfer window so far.

Instead of telling me to re read your posts, why don't you re read all your posts and you might be able to realise that every posts of yours are just excuses. Notice how you still can't admit that £30m is considered to be a normal fee in today's market.

Re. Sissoko, I've already given my views - read back in the thread if you want to know what they are.

Did I ever ask your views about Sissoko? You bring this up because you need another excuse by making it sound like you have been talking right all the time but I never ask your opinion about Sissoko mate. Just because you have your own opinion about Sissoko doesn't mean I can't have my view about Sissoko as well.

 

[Kraftwerker]

It doesn't sound like normal practice if "you don't carry on paying for him if he leaves."

Normally, a club agrees a fixed minimum fee (plus potential add-ons, if any) and an instalments plan and then you have to pay all of those instalments, regardless of whether and when you later sell that player ... because the contract is between you and the selling club and no-one else.

Yes, obviously.

If you still owe a whack to Newcastle when you have to flog him, you'll just get the buying club to cover it and the buying club will pay a reduced fee directly to you.

The problem you'll face is if he flops massively, getting another club to pay anything close to what you'll owe Newcastle will be impossible.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I think you are the one who need to read back my post. When did I say Spurs won't finish top 4. I said your current squad isn't good enough to keep up what you did last season. Did you fight for top 4 last season? It looks to me you were challenging the league.
But then again everyone were still right to share their opinion few weeks ago about that they don't think it will be as easy as last season for Spurs after more top and world class managers came in, and the other clubs are strengthening their squad and starting eleven. It shows that the other clubs have shown more ambition than Spurs did in transfer window so far.

Instead of telling me to re read your posts, why don't you re read all your posts and you might be able to realise that every posts of yours are just excuses. Notice how you still can't admit that £30m is considered to be a normal fee in today's market.



Did I ever ask your views about Sissoko? You bring this up because you need another excuse by making it sound like you have been talking right all the time but I never ask your opinion about Sissoko mate. Just because you have your own opinion about Sissoko doesn't mean I can't have my view about Sissoko as well.

I'll ask again: excuses for what?

What is it that, according to you, even needs excusing ... and what are the excuses that, according to you, have been made?

We did well last season, we have carried out a transfer strategy that Poch has wanted this summer, we've made a decent enough start to the season, we've got the CL to look forward to, and a new stadium on its way. Most Spurs are happy with the club - so what do they (or I) need to find excuses for?

 

[GlastonSpur]

Yes, obviously.

If you still owe a whack to Newcastle when you have to flog him, you'll just get the selling club to cover it and the buying club will pay a reduced fee directly to you.

The problem you'll face is if he flops massively, getting another club to pay anything close to what you'll owe Newcastle will be impossible.

This still doesn't really square with what the journo has written. You talk about if "you still owe a whack to Newcastle when you have to flog him".

But he talks about "re-negotiation" at that point. And nor is it normal for a selling club to agree to rely on some other club - a club of unknown identity and probity - to pay any remaining instalments. What if they renege or go bust? But if you have no contract with them, what could you ever do about it?

I don't pretend to understand what this deal involves, but clearly it isn't normal.

 

[Mike09]

I'll ask again: excuses for what?

What is it that, according to you, even needs excusing ... and what are the excuses that, according to you, have been made?

We did well last season, we have carried out a transfer strategy that Poch has wanted this summer, we've made a decent enough start to the season, we've got the CL to look forward to, and a new stadium on its way. Most Spurs are happy with the club - so what do they (or I) need to find excuses for?

Again! Another excuse. Your excuse of saying "we have carried out a transfer strategy that Pochettino has wanted this summer". Really? Most likely it's an excuse to defend £30m of Sissoko panic buy.

Re read it again. How many times do I need to tell you this I wasn't talking about how well you did last season, it's about improvement and you are deluded enough if you think it will be as easy as last season with top managers joined Chelsea, Liverpool, United and City and strengthen their squad.
I also even give you onother example of one of your excuse about £30m isn't considered to be a normal fees in today's market. Most likely it's an excuse for your criticism on other clubs transfer's strategy.

 

[Kraftwerker]

This still doesn't really square with what the journo has written. You talk about if "you still owe a whack to Newcastle when you have to flog him".

But he talks about "re-negotiation" at that point. And nor is it normal for a selling club to agree to rely on some other club - a club of unknown identity and probity - to pay any remaining instalments. What if they renege or go bust? But if you have no contract with them, what could you ever do about it?

I don't pretend to understand what this deal involves, but clearly it isn't normal.

Yes a renegotiation where Spurs will be able to negotiate for the buying club to pay the remainder fee.

Its very simple stuff. The journalist even says Newcastle will get their £30m.

One way or another Spurs will pay it by either forking up, or reducing what they get directly from a buying club who will cover it.

 

[KM]

One thing to note is that, according to Tom Collomose of the London Evening Standard, the payments are in five instalments of £6m, but the deal is structured so that the full amount will be paid only if he stays for the duration of his five-year contract, which is not likely: http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...-mauricio-pochettino-wanted-the-a3334451.html

Only an idiot would believe this. Installments doesn't work like this, what absolute nonsense.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Again! Another excuse. Your excuse of saying "we have carried out a transfer strategy that Pochettino has wanted this summer". Really? Most likely it's an excuse to defend £30m of Sissoko panic buy.

Re read it again. How many times do I need to tell you this I wasn't talking about how well you did last season, it's about improvement and you are deluded enough if you think it will be as easy as last season with top managers joined Chelsea, Liverpool, United and City and strengthen their squad.
I also even give you onother example of one of your excuse about £30m isn't considered to be a normal fees in today's market. Most likely it's an excuse for your criticism on other clubs transfer's strategy.

I've come to the conclusion that you don't actually understand what the word "excuse" means.

It doesn't mean that just because you disagree with my view, mine becomes an "excuse". It doesn't mean that just because you think I'm deluded, my views becomes "excuses".

And I still don't get what Spurs' failure I am accused by you of excusing ... because you still haven't told me.

Nor do I understand your comments about Pochettino and transfers this summer? What leads you to believe that he hasn't sanctioned each and every one of the deals we've made this summer, both ins and outs?

 

[GlastonSpur]

Only an idiot would believe this. Installments doesn't work like this, what absolute nonsense.

As I've said to others, take it up with the journalist.

 

[KM]

As I've said to others, take it up with the journalist.

I'm merely commenting on the fact that the story is stupid, not saying anything to you.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Yes a renegotiation where Spurs will be able to negotiate for the buying club to pay the remainder fee.

Its very simple stuff. The journalist even says Newcastle will get their £30m.

One way or another Spurs will pay it by either forking up, or reducing what they get directly from a buying club who will cover it.

He says "Re-negotiation", which suggests he means with Newcastle, with whom the original negotiation took place. It wouldn't seem to refer to some new negotiation between Spurs and some new club that Spurs might sell to. And in any case, what you've said would still leave Newcastle relying on this new club (and not Spurs) to pay the remainder to them.

All in all, it doesn't seem like a very normal deal to me.

 

[Mike09]

I've come to the conclusion that you don't actually understand what the word "excuse" means.

It doesn't mean that just because you disagree with my view, mine becomes an "excuse". It doesn't mean that just because you think I'm deluded, my views becomes "excuses".

And I still don't get what Spurs' failure I am accused by you of excusing ... because you still haven't told me.

Nor do I understand your comments about Pochettino and transfers this summer? What leads you to believe that he hasn't sanctioned each and every one of the deals we've made this summer, both ins and outs?

Again another excuse.
The fact that you can't accept the reality that you are making excuse is considered to be an excuse to defend something which is wrong.
The fact that you said "we have carried out a transfer strategy that Pochettino has wanted this summer" after a reality has shown that you did a panic buy by spent £30m on a player like Sissoko during the final day of transfer window.
The fact that you are still arguing with someone about £30m is not a normal fees in today's market especially after what Everton, Liverpool, Spurs and Palace just did.

 

[Sweech]

I'm not talking about how well you did last season. But I'm talking about how deluded your fans in this forum. A few weeks ago you lot thought that Spurs has done well with their signing so far N'koudou, Wanyama and Janssen. A lot of people in here have respect on Spurs and some of them give their opinion how Spurs should have done better in transfer window to improve their squad and also upgrade the starting eleven which potentially can challenge the league. So many excuses from Spurs fans in redcafe try to argue this, but the fact is your current squad aren't good enough to keep up what you did last season. And now, it sounds to me £30m for Sissoko is just a panic buy.

Especially for someone like you who I have seen so many times criticised other clubs transfer's windows. I let you know this, I rather have 1 Pogba than 3 Sissoko . Are you going to disagree with this?

Are you here to discuss Spurs objectively and constructively or are you just going to have a go at Glaston and constantly repeat the same things ad nauseum? I'm just asking because you can just send him a message.

 

[Sweech]

He turned it down because he knows he won't start, so he chooses Dortmund over Bayern. Are you trying to tell me that Dembele won't choose Spurs over Dortmund if Spurs offers more wages?

Yes, I believe we would have had to pay him way and above what Dortmund paid him in order to get him here. Which would have likely totally broken our carefully managed wage structure.

Lets also not mince things. Dortmund is a top European club, them beating us to a player isn't some kind of shock and awe moment. It's pretty understandable why a young player would wish to go there.